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lorechaser

Mar 12 2007, 12:27 AM

Post #26

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QUOTE (Garrowolf)

A karma can make you go first. Reaction is less important for that then it used to be.

Reaction keeps you from getting shot.

Additionally, using the argument that you can spend karma (I'm thinking you meant Edge) works from 1-6 times. And that means 1. Another place your mage has to spend BP and 2. You don't get your Edge anywhere else.

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

The extra complex actions are the problem. They can cast three or four spells a turn. This totally breaks my disbelief in the setting. I can see the hyped up sammie shooting and punching in a adrenaline filled frenzy but I cant see the focus and concentration sped up to rapid fire cast spells.

Do you also ban magicians from taking Synaptic Boosters or Wired Reflexes?

QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Magic users can already create a team of their own on a whim. They can already kill somebody without their benefiting from their expensive armor. They can already control people's minds in various ways. They can already fly. The only limitation on them is that they are doing this relatively slowly. If that changes then there is no reason to play anything else.

Here's where the argument comes out - you feel that mages are overpowered. That's a completely separate issue. And yet it sounds like you're playing a relatively mage-friendly game - no wards, no roaming watchers, no background count, high karma (if they're getting all those spells, all their stats, and everything else without issue), and relatively little counterspelling.

Konsaki View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 12:27 AM Post #27
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445	Yeah, considering there is no cost or limit to the ammount of wards a mage can throw up. It only costs time and the Force*50m^2 area thing.

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 12:48 AM Post #28
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	Actually I'm going by the books (for this part) because magic users are RARE. They are not common enough to do most of these things unless they are being paid LOTS of money by a megacorp. All of these limits are based on thinking that magic users are just uncommon. You can cast a spell to shield yourself, have a spirit protect you, or hide yourself. You can also cast increase reaction. Wards stay connected to the caster and can be tracked back. It may be cheap but it's a huge flag for random targeting. None of my characters would ever do that except for their own house. Actually yes I ban magic users from having any reaction enhancers because I am running a Role Playing Game and not a pen and paper video game. The point of the game is the story - not making as powerful a character as possible. Doing so will not go over well in my games. I'm trying to figure out what kind of games you're running that the power level is the primary factor. Having characters this powerful sounds too much like Rifts to me. I prefer my game to be gritty and skill focused with mystery, not anime characters and superheroes.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 01:03 AM Post #29
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	1% isn't that rare. Less than 0.4% of American's are lawyers, but you still don't have trouble finding one if you need one.

Jaid View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 01:14 AM Post #30
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	furthermore, add in the fact that all it takes (iirc) is acess to the astral and a magic rating. spirits can do it. many dual-natured paracritters could do it. heck, an adept or ghoul in astral shallows could do it. and once it's up, it can stay for quite some time.

Prime Mover

Mar 12 2007, 01:21 AM

Post #31

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QUOTE (Wasabi)

Good points, but just for the record.... Bioware costs essence in SR4

Noticed in Franks posts somtimes takes me two or three reads to understand the definition of whats he's trying to get across. In the case in point Believe he was refering to spell, not the bioware when he says it costs no essence.

toturi

Mar 12 2007, 01:46 AM

Post #32

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

1% isn't that rare. Less than 0.4% of American's are lawyers, but you still don't have trouble finding one if you need one.

Not only do you have no trouble finding one, they also have no trouble finding you.

lorechaser

Mar 12 2007, 01:46 AM

Post #33

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QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Actually I'm going by the books (for this part) because magic users are RARE. They are not common enough to do most of these things unless they are being paid LOTS of money by a megacorp.

All of these limits are based on thinking that magic users are just uncommon.

You can cast a spell to shield yourself, have a spirit protect you, or hide yourself. You can also cast increase reaction.

Wards stay connected to the caster and can be tracked back. It may be cheap but it's a huge flag for random targeting. None of my characters would ever do that except for their own house.

Actually yes I ban magic users from having any reaction enhancers because I am running a Role Playing Game and not a pen and paper video game. The point of the game is the story - not making as powerful a character as possible. Doing so will not go over well in my games. I'm trying to figure out what kind of games you're running that the power level is the primary factor. Having characters this powerful sounds too much like Rifts to me.

I prefer my game to be gritty and skill focused with mystery, not anime characters and superheroes.

That would fit.

However, that's not the game SR is. I mean, it's quite clearly intended for mages to have extra IPs. And a slew of designers, playtesters and players since SR1 have felt that was good, and gritty, and not "Anime" or "superhero."

So don't take this the wrong way, but your arguments are really not going to hold any water in this regard, knowing that you fundamentally disagree with the game system.

It's sort of like me trying to argue that fighters in d20 are underpowered after I removed feats from all character classes - you're just coming from a very different viewpoint, and you can't mesh it with the general view.

Tomothy View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 02:12 AM Post #34
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558	I guess that means the general consensus is that Mages should use increased reflexes if they want extra IP? So will I be at a serious disadvantage if'n I don't have extra IP? Just wondering, because I'm not going to get them from increased reflexes. It just doesn't fit in with the character I'm making. (Though occasional drug use would).

Mistwalker

Mar 12 2007, 02:30 AM

Post #35

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QUOTE (Tomothy)

I guess that means the general consensus is that Mages should use increased reflexes if they want extra IP?

So will I be at a serious disadvantage if'n I don't have extra IP? Just wondering, because I'm not going to get them from increased reflexes. It just doesn't fit in with the character I'm making. (Though occasional drug use would).

Using Increased Reflexes is one methode.
Combat drugs is another
Bioware/Cyberware is another.

You may be at a slight disadvantage compared to the wired to the gills sammy, but not against most others. Same ball park for most mundanes.

Depends a bit on the gaming style of the GM, and what you fell your char is willing to do, or go for.

I have a player that has a complete mundane, no cyber or bioware, that is a sammy.
He is still alive, and contributes to the team.

Mistwalker

Mar 12 2007, 02:35 AM

Post #36

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QUOTE (Garrowolf)

Wards stay connected to the caster and can be tracked back. It may be cheap but it's a huge flag for random targeting. None of my characters would ever do that except for their own house.

Random targetting by whom?

Considering that if your job is to create wards, you will most likely be inside a ward, even during down time, at your house/apartment.

You may find out where they live thru the astral link? So what, you can do the same thing by looking them up in the book, following them from a job, hacking, etc...

I have corps place small wards around doors / airlock security like doors. It won't stop astral projection, but will definately cause problems for the runners who are trying to get thru the doors while under spells (invisibility, physical mask, increased reflexes, etc...).

lorechaser View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 02:35 AM Post #37
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168	Well, you need more than 1 IP. All the other serious combatants will have them, so even if you just want to cast a spell, then full dodge, you need it. Drugs are fine, if you're willing to accept addiction. Spells are good if you accept the issues with Foci or the -2 penalty (or summon a spirit). Cyberware is good if you get synaptic Boosters 2 (1 essence), but costs you 42/57 bp (32 in nuyen, plus the 10/25 for the magic you lost). Think of it like this: We're going to duel. I will take 4 shots. Do you want to take 1, or 4, in that time? If you can make the 1 really count, that's enough. Otherwise, no.

Tomothy View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 03:02 AM Post #38
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 205 Joined: 7-January 07 From: Sydney, Australia Member No.: 10,558	Assuming we're on the physical plane you're probably going to go first, but if I survive your first action I'll just control your thoughts and have you dance a merry jig (ideally). Unfortunately my mage is not really built to survive direct combat so the chances of her surviving one on one combat are slim to none. So maybe I could summon a spirit and have it use conceal on me? Alternatively, I could just direct spirits to attack you from the Astral plane.

Glyph View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 03:20 AM Post #39
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449	Extra IPs are vital for a combat-oriented character. If your mage is less combat-oriented (recon, buff spells, healing, etc.), then it is less important for her. In that case, Improved Invisibility would be a better spell for you than Increased Reflexes. Keep in mind that spirits, while powerful and versatile, need to materialize to affect someone on the physical plane. They are still good combattants, though, and one alternative to boosting your own IPs is to rely on spirits for combat more.

Guest_Seyluun_*	Mar 12 2007, 12:25 PM Post #40
Guests	1% of the population have a shred of magical power. 10% of this population is actually talented/trained enough to be considered for employment as "mage" (or adept). And even less are at shadowrunner/researcher level... As for the best way to get IP as a mage it's hard to beat Increase reflex with a force 4 sustaining focus. Sure it's not broken like in SR3 (when you could do the same for the ridiculous cost of 2 karma and 10000Y) but it's still good, costing you 9 karma (4 for the focus, 5 for the spell) and 40.000Y, unless you're willing to make a run to steal the focus. The main drawback is that you have to recast the spell each time you cross a ward, so you have to be good enough to make 4 hits in a few tries and to soak the drain on an average roll. Don't worry about the focus being attacked, because if they can destroy the focus, chances are they'll just try to kill you instead. Be wary of the random "capture" plot twist though (extended detect ennemies is your friend here) And i agree with what was said earlier, you are going to need the extra IPs. When the sh*** hit the fan, the tough boys aren't going to stop because you're a "recon mage" (and given how cheap the spells are, chances are you can cast a quite wide selection of spells anyway).

Moon-Hawk

Mar 12 2007, 05:02 PM

Post #41

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

1% isn't that rare. Less than 0.4% of American's are lawyers, but you still don't have trouble finding one if you need one.

Thank you.
1% is NOT rare. It is not remotely rare. Granted, many of this 1% are weak, but they all have a magic rating of at least 1, and most of them have astral perception. That means the majority of this 1% is capable of creating Force 1 wards. This requires no skill, so they need no special training, it's just magic+willpower, so everyone with astral perception can do it instinctively. 1% can make an excellent living creating low-force wards with no training, no special equipment, and very little personal risk.
A force 1 ward may not stop you and your sustained spell, but it does trigger the alarms and keep any casual astral passers-by at bay. As an analogy, you could easily kick down most of the doors you come across, but that doesn't mean you do it, 'cause you'd get in trouble.

p.s. 1% is not rare.

Konsaki View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 05:56 PM Post #42
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445	1% are awakened... how many of that 1% are full mages?

lorechaser View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 06:19 PM Post #43
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168	Here's a comparison for the scarity of 1%: In 2005, 1% of the population of the US was Native American or Alaskan Native. 1% listed their religions as Jewish, and 1% as Muslim. 1% of the population cannot read or write.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 06:26 PM Post #44
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	1% of people are awakened. A subway car holds, say, 30 people. There is approximately a 26% that any given subway car has a magician in it. Another example. From a given busy metropolitan intersection, there are, say, 200 people standing near enough to see you. (a very conservative estimate, I think) You get naked and do a dance. There is an 87% chance that there is an awakened person who sees you.

Konsaki View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 06:31 PM Post #45
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445	I see people confuse 'Awakened' with Magician... Awakened = has a magic ability or is magical in some way Awakened people = Magicians, Dual-natured people, adepts, mystic adepts, people with astral sight, people with 'Spell Knack'(cant remember the correct wording), aspected magicians and magical creatures (IE Shapeshifters) Now, does anyone have broken down numbers as to how many of the 1% awakened population are what?

Mal-2

Mar 12 2007, 06:47 PM

Post #46

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QUOTE (Konsaki)

Now, does anyone have broken down numbers as to how many of the 1% awakened population are what?

As far as I know, no such numbers have ever been published. There's been lots of numbers made up and debated over the years though.

My general feeling is that it's about 40% magicians, 40% Adepts, and 20% weird stuff (like mystic adepts, shapeshifters, and aspected magicians). Of those magicians and adepts, I assume they average a 2 or 3 Magic, the same as with other attributes. Other people think that 99% of the awakened population have the equivalent of a 'Spell Knack' and are barely Awakened at all.

Your mileage may vary. Always talk to your GM about assumptions about the world that aren't written into source material. This advice may not survive a quantum singularity. Never taunt the happy fun ball.

tisoz

Mar 12 2007, 07:20 PM

Post #47

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QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows @ page 28)

Only 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World can use magic. A fraction of that percentage are aspected magicians, never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with their gift.

QUOTE (Street Magic @ page 22)

Less than one percent of the Sixth World's populace even has the potential to use magic. Of that one percent, only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use it effectively; the rest either go mad trying or spend their entire lives ignorant of the power at their fingertips.

Moon-Hawk

Mar 12 2007, 07:23 PM

Post #48

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QUOTE (tisoz)

QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows @ page 28)

Only 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World can use magic. A fraction of that percentage are aspected magicians, never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with their gift.

Okay, but of that fraction, aspect magicians and those who never get training can both make wards. Aspected magicians have astral perception. Making wards is an attribute+magic test and requires no skill, no training.
So we're only looking at the people who are bat-shit insane (who can still make wards, but not in a productive way), and the adepts and mystic adepts who haven't bought the power.
Everyone else, full mage, aspected, etc. has astral perception. True, there's the spell knack people, but it was my understanding that those represent a very small percentage of even the awakened, since they're not even in the main book.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Mar 12 2007, 09:39 PM Post #49
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	To further shed light on what 1% really means, there are 30,000 awakened individuals in Seattle if it conforms to the statistical norm. 30,000 really is a lot of Awakened people, even if only a few of them have any real power.

lorechaser

Mar 12 2007, 09:51 PM

Post #50

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

To further shed light on what 1% really means, there are 30,000 awakened individuals in Seattle if it conforms to the statistical norm.
30,000 really is a lot of Awakened people, even if only a few of them have any real power.

So if 40% have real power, that's 12,000 people.

Let's say there are 4 categories of mages: Runners, Academics, Independents, Corp Mages. Let's call it 25% each.

So 3,000 corporate mages in a city. That's far and away enough to supply what you need. And of the 3,000 independents, a portion of them will likely do freelance wardings. I'd expect that to be the bread and butter service - sorta like installing Vista on a PC - it's quick, it's easy, you charge a fair amount for it, and do a dozen a day.

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