Spirits, and what they can and can not do, Help? Options

[Shockwave_IIc]

So here is was last night bored out of my mind when this idea poped into my head about a character idea. A thrillseeker, pankster type. But that on it's own, i thought would not be enough to make a shadowrunner they needed to be special some how, so in poped another idea. What if this person was a Conjurer?

Then it hit me, my knowledge of the rules for spirits is lacking to say the least.

The conjuring part i think im ok with.

Conjure test (desired force of spirit) success's = services
Drain is a charisma (spirit force) vs (most commonly) M stun

Now i know there's diferent rules for Elementals and nature spirits. But for this (the character being a Shamanic Conjurer (Gecko)) Will stick with Nature spirits.

The part that gets me is the Domains. Now i know if im in a city i can't summon a spirit of the forest. But what if im on the streets of Seattle with tall buildings all round, is the sky open enough to summon a wind spirit?

And can a spirit (non great form) say use it's movement power on something it can see but is in another domain?

Also if im in a building and summon say a hearth spirit, then leave the building and come back is it still "waiting" for me? (I think yes with 0 services tho)

Ok. So here is our prankster stuck to the side of a building (140 floors up) graffitting the side of said building. He's curretly in the domain of the city spirits (no?) with the spirit using it's conceal power to make it so he doesn't get seen. However not 2 minutes before he had summoned wing spirit and told it that should he fall to use it's movement power to slow his fall so he would land safely (also what the likely hood of him landing in relative safty).

Is that a legal use of spirits? if not tell me where i went wrong please.

Ok im sure theres more questions that will come. but that will do for now.

[Backgammon]

[BitBasher]

I'm with backgammon here, but I would like to qualify one statement:

[Shockwave_IIc]

[spotlite]

[Shockwave_IIc]

[spotlite]

Well, letter of the rules would indicate its fine - but I would say that since you've summoned up the wind spirit while the street spirit conceals you, it means that you've left the street spirit's Domain (you had to, to conjour the wind spirit), its powers could no longer affect you, and although there's nothing to say you can't keep switching domains if you aren't expecting additional services from your spirits, I would say its against the spirit of the rules if not the letter to keep popping from one domain to another from turn to turn, action to action and taking advantage of their powers just because their last instructions were to look after you. Remember that nature spirits are not commanded, they are asked, and they CAN say no - the totem might decide you are being disrespectful to the spirit world or something, let alone the spirit. There are places in the 6th world where conjouring spirits will simply make them mad at you, so it follows they have personalities and wants of their own. Same for Elementals, but they have been bound into service and cannot refuse.

[Shockwave_IIc]

Fair points Spotlite. More so on the roleplay side of things (often overlooked).

But foregoing the other say 4 services for a small service i wouldn't see as abuse. doing it day in and out yes. but the occasional "one off" ? And inrealtion to the totem saying im abusing them i find that one a difficlut to believe (at least for this character idea) being that he's doing a prank at the time.

Just so i have it right, (i maybe getting confused with full mages) A conjurer really only needs Charisma right?

[tisoz]

[Lilt]

My take on the whole wind spirit thing:

You can order a spirit to perform a particular task, then summon a spirit from another domain, and the spirit will still obey the last task you gave it (as it says on page 184 of the BBB). IE your example of the wind spirit catching you is valid.

There are a coupple of problems with that example though: By the simplistic way sustained spells and abilities work; as soon as you stop sustaining whatever effect it was ends. You'd immediately jump to moving your normal speed again and, as the street down below is probably not the sky domain (it depends on how strict your GM is and how built-up the area is. I certanly know places in edinburgh which I'd class as wind and city domains at ground level) you'd get no benefit.

The spirit may, however, be able to give you a helping dudge back up onto some ledge (Effectively weighing 20KGs less is always nice when your life is at stake) and guard you from inconvenient gusts of wind using its guard power (making it less likely you will fall in the first place) if you pay the services for it.

For what it's worth: Your aforementioned city spirit may be able to catch you though, or arrange a soft landing in a pile of empty cardboard boxes or on-top of an ambulance. If both were rating 5 then they may well be able to catch you mid-fall and support your weight most of the way to the ground (or all the way up onto the roof).

[mfb]

you can, i believe, summon a nature spirit, then instruct it to wait on the metaplanes until you call it again. this doesn't use up a service, as far as i remember. with a spirit on hold like that, you can switch between domain and summon any other spirit you like (except for another of the same type), and that one will still be waiting for you when you call it up. you can still only control one spirit at a time, however.

[Lilt]

I don't think that works mfb... The spirit's domain is still that building. When you summon a spirit from another domain; you must leave the original spirit's domain thus all services it owes you are cancelled (but it will still perform any tasks you have already ordered it to).

[Dim Sum]

It's true that if you leave a spirit's domain, it will carry out your last instructions - if possible - before returning to its home metaplane.

However, a non-Great Form spirit can only affect things in their domain. As such, if you were to leave that spirit's domain (by summoning a spirit of a different domain or for any other reason), I'd rule that you would lose the benefit of the powers of the first spirit being used on you.

Thus, if a City spirit were concealing you while you vandalise the side of a skyscraper 140 storeys up and you summoned a Wind spirit to save your butt after falling off your perch, you would no longer be concealed because you would have left the City spirit's domain and it would not be able to exercise its power in another domain.

If you were being chased through the woods by some bad guys and came into a clearing with open sky, you could summon a forest spirit, command it to attack your pursuers by causing an accident, then summon a spirit of the sky to conceal you within the clearing. The forest spirit would still be able to carry out your last instructions even though you've left its domain because it's exercising its power on subjects within its domain.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[Dim Sum]

[Lilt]

Dim Sum: I think that if the character is in an overlapping domain then they can be affected by spirits of multiple types. Consider the situation that another shaman summons a city spirit to confuse/attack me and I merely decide to be in the sky domain. I think I may actually agree that by the writing of the rules; a shaman could simply say that he was in a different domain (if there were overlapping domains) but I doubt that's what's meant to be the case.

[RangerJoe]

One should not forget that

[Dim Sum]

Uh, Lilt & RangerJoe, my examples in my previous posts goes directly to the heart of the issue of overlapping domains.

Shockwave was asking about whether or not a spirit of one domain, having been commanded (asked) to use one its power on a person, could continue to do so if that person left that spirit's domain and summoned a second spirit in an overlapping domain to make use of the second spirit's powers. The answer is "No".

Using RangerJoe's example, Busty Betty is walking down 5th Avenue, NYC, on a windy day - overlapping domains of the City spirit and Wind Spirit. She's feeling tired and summons a Wind Spirit to use its Movement power (I can't remember if a Wind spirit has the Movement power but for the sake of argument, let's assume it does) to help her, er, move along. :) Suddenly, she sees an ex-boyfriend whom she just dumped and wants to avoid a scene. She decides to summon a City spirit to use its Concealment power to hide her to avoid her ex.

However, because she summoned a Wind spirit earlier on, she's in its domain. To summon a City spirit (which she is entitled to do since she's in the city), she has to leave the Wind spirit's domain and cross over to the City spirit's domain. Once she does that, the Wind spirit can no longer affect her with its Movement power because she has left its domain even though she is still walking down a windy street under open skies. She cannot have BOTH the Wind spirit AND the City spirit use their powers on her at the same time.

Lilt, you do, however, raise an interesting point, which I will address in my next post.

[Cain]

However, either spirit can affect people in dual domains with physical abilities. While the Movement power may be questionable, either one could be asked to try and catch you to slow your fall, provided you timed your requests properly.

[Dim Sum]

I've not looked at my books in some time and something in Lilt's last post made me stop to think .... Choosing to be in another domain ....

Charlie Chapati the Crotchety Conjurer is confronted by a wizzer ganger, Sharon the Shy Shaman and her 2 mundane pals, Billy and Bones. They're Rubble City surrounded by (semi-)demolished buildings occupied by beggars and homeless lowlife under an open sky.

Charlie the Crotchety Conjurer calls up a City spirit to use its Accident power on all three gangers to teach them a lesson. Now, Billy and Bones, being mundanes, cannot choose what domains they are in standing out in the open but having hung out with Sharon the Shy Shaman for ages now, they know enough to try to run into one of the beggar-occupied semi-demolished buildings where the City spirit cannot follow as it's the domain of Hearth spirits.

Sharon the Shy Shaman knows her pals don't have a chance of outrunning the City spirit; standing in overlapping domains of City spirits and Wind spirits, she summons a Wind spirit to use its Movement power to let her run into a building.

Now, by summoning a Wind spirit, Sharon the Shy Shaman chooses to be in the domain of the Wind spirit, does that mean that the City spirit can't affect her? The rules clearly state that a spirit cannot affect a person in another domain, afterall.

My take on this is that the City spirit can still affect Sharon as she is physically in the overlapping domains of both the City spirit and Wind spirit. The domain "exclusivity" only applies to physically changing domains where there are no overlapping domains and to summoner of the spirit. Otherwise, it makes for a very ridiculous situation where shamans who find themselves the prey of a spirit simply "choose" to be in another domain.

Comments?

[Herald of Verjig...]

The "change of domains" a shaman faces is a psychological difference, it in no way affects what spirits can affect the shaman, that is a geographic limit.

[Dim Sum]

Psychological? Kewl beans! Explains a lot. I couldn't remember if it was a mental thing or a magical difference. Thanks, HoV.

[spotlite]

[Sphynx]

Actually Spotlight, a Shaman can order spirits around all the time, but a willful spirit who has been abused by this shaman (or shamen in general) is very likely to play 'lawful evil'. Ie: do thing to the letter in such a way that it's not beneficial. Attack him? Sure... hit-miss-bye. They have 'attitude' is all. (I don't mind being told I'm wrong here, but please provide a page reference if you do).

Sphynx

[spotlite]

Personally I would have put that down to elemental type behaviour (cos they are often described as resenting their servitude) not nature spirits.

As I said, its not page reference type stuff. there's definately nothing specific concerning shaman and their spirits. But under Totems I'm pretty sure theres stuff about displeasing the totem. Maybe this should be classified under a 'roleplay and interepretation of the game world' heading rather than a 'can or can not' one?