So here is was last night bored out of my mind when this idea poped into my head about a character idea. A thrillseeker, pankster type. But that on it's own, i thought would not be enough to make a shadowrunner they needed to be special some how, so in poped another idea. What if this person was a Conjurer?

Then it hit me, my knowledge of the rules for spirits is lacking to say the least.

The conjuring part i think im ok with.

Conjure test (desired force of spirit) success's = services
Drain is a charisma (spirit force) vs (most commonly) M stun

Now i know there's diferent rules for Elementals and nature spirits. But for this (the character being a Shamanic Conjurer (Gecko)) Will stick with Nature spirits.

The part that gets me is the Domains. Now i know if im in a city i can't summon a spirit of the forest. But what if im on the streets of Seattle with tall buildings all round, is the sky open enough to summon a wind spirit?

And can a spirit (non great form) say use it's movement power on something it can see but is in another domain?

Also if im in a building and summon say a hearth spirit, then leave the building and come back is it still "waiting" for me? (I think yes with 0 services tho)

Ok. So here is our prankster stuck to the side of a building (140 floors up) graffitting the side of said building. He's curretly in the domain of the city spirits (no?) with the spirit using it's conceal power to make it so he doesn't get seen. However not 2 minutes before he had summoned wing spirit and told it that should he fall to use it's movement power to slow his fall so he would land safely (also what the likely hood of him landing in relative safty).

Is that a legal use of spirits? if not tell me where i went wrong please.

Ok im sure theres more questions that will come. but that will do for now.

I'm with backgammon here, but I would like to qualify one statement:

Well, letter of the rules would indicate its fine - but I would say that since you've summoned up the wind spirit while the street spirit conceals you, it means that you've left the street spirit's Domain (you had to, to conjour the wind spirit), its powers could no longer affect you, and although there's nothing to say you can't keep switching domains if you aren't expecting additional services from your spirits, I would say its against the spirit of the rules if not the letter to keep popping from one domain to another from turn to turn, action to action and taking advantage of their powers just because their last instructions were to look after you. Remember that nature spirits are not commanded, they are asked, and they CAN say no - the totem might decide you are being disrespectful to the spirit world or something, let alone the spirit. There are places in the 6th world where conjouring spirits will simply make them mad at you, so it follows they have personalities and wants of their own. Same for Elementals, but they have been bound into service and cannot refuse.

Fair points Spotlite. More so on the roleplay side of things (often overlooked).

But foregoing the other say 4 services for a small service i wouldn't see as abuse. doing it day in and out yes. but the occasional "one off" ? And inrealtion to the totem saying im abusing them i find that one a difficlut to believe (at least for this character idea) being that he's doing a prank at the time.

Just so i have it right, (i maybe getting confused with full mages) A conjurer really only needs Charisma right?

My take on the whole wind spirit thing:

You can order a spirit to perform a particular task, then summon a spirit from another domain, and the spirit will still obey the last task you gave it (as it says on page 184 of the BBB). IE your example of the wind spirit catching you is valid.

There are a coupple of problems with that example though: By the simplistic way sustained spells and abilities work; as soon as you stop sustaining whatever effect it was ends. You'd immediately jump to moving your normal speed again and, as the street down below is probably not the sky domain (it depends on how strict your GM is and how built-up the area is. I certanly know places in edinburgh which I'd class as wind and city domains at ground level) you'd get no benefit.

The spirit may, however, be able to give you a helping dudge back up onto some ledge (Effectively weighing 20KGs less is always nice when your life is at stake) and guard you from inconvenient gusts of wind using its guard power (making it less likely you will fall in the first place) if you pay the services for it.

For what it's worth: Your aforementioned city spirit may be able to catch you though, or arrange a soft landing in a pile of empty cardboard boxes or on-top of an ambulance. If both were rating 5 then they may well be able to catch you mid-fall and support your weight most of the way to the ground (or all the way up onto the roof).

you can, i believe, summon a nature spirit, then instruct it to wait on the metaplanes until you call it again. this doesn't use up a service, as far as i remember. with a spirit on hold like that, you can switch between domain and summon any other spirit you like (except for another of the same type), and that one will still be waiting for you when you call it up. you can still only control one spirit at a time, however.

I don't think that works mfb... The spirit's domain is still that building. When you summon a spirit from another domain; you must leave the original spirit's domain thus all services it owes you are cancelled (but it will still perform any tasks you have already ordered it to).

It's true that if you leave a spirit's domain, it will carry out your last instructions - if possible - before returning to its home metaplane.

However, a non-Great Form spirit can only affect things in their domain. As such, if you were to leave that spirit's domain (by summoning a spirit of a different domain or for any other reason), I'd rule that you would lose the benefit of the powers of the first spirit being used on you.

Thus, if a City spirit were concealing you while you vandalise the side of a skyscraper 140 storeys up and you summoned a Wind spirit to save your butt after falling off your perch, you would no longer be concealed because you would have left the City spirit's domain and it would not be able to exercise its power in another domain.

If you were being chased through the woods by some bad guys and came into a clearing with open sky, you could summon a forest spirit, command it to attack your pursuers by causing an accident, then summon a spirit of the sky to conceal you within the clearing. The forest spirit would still be able to carry out your last instructions even though you've left its domain because it's exercising its power on subjects within its domain.

Dim Sum: I think that if the character is in an overlapping domain then they can be affected by spirits of multiple types. Consider the situation that another shaman summons a city spirit to confuse/attack me and I merely decide to be in the sky domain. I think I may actually agree that by the writing of the rules; a shaman could simply say that he was in a different domain (if there were overlapping domains) but I doubt that's what's meant to be the case.

One should not forget that

Uh, Lilt & RangerJoe, my examples in my previous posts goes directly to the heart of the issue of overlapping domains.

Shockwave was asking about whether or not a spirit of one domain, having been commanded (asked) to use one its power on a person, could continue to do so if that person left that spirit's domain and summoned a second spirit in an overlapping domain to make use of the second spirit's powers. The answer is "No".

Using RangerJoe's example, Busty Betty is walking down 5th Avenue, NYC, on a windy day - overlapping domains of the City spirit and Wind Spirit. She's feeling tired and summons a Wind Spirit to use its Movement power (I can't remember if a Wind spirit has the Movement power but for the sake of argument, let's assume it does) to help her, er, move along. Suddenly, she sees an ex-boyfriend whom she just dumped and wants to avoid a scene. She decides to summon a City spirit to use its Concealment power to hide her to avoid her ex.

However, because she summoned a Wind spirit earlier on, she's in its domain. To summon a City spirit (which she is entitled to do since she's in the city), she has to leave the Wind spirit's domain and cross over to the City spirit's domain. Once she does that, the Wind spirit can no longer affect her with its Movement power because she has left its domain even though she is still walking down a windy street under open skies. She cannot have BOTH the Wind spirit AND the City spirit use their powers on her at the same time.

Lilt, you do, however, raise an interesting point, which I will address in my next post.

However, either spirit can affect people in dual domains with physical abilities. While the Movement power may be questionable, either one could be asked to try and catch you to slow your fall, provided you timed your requests properly.

I've not looked at my books in some time and something in Lilt's last post made me stop to think .... Choosing to be in another domain ....

Charlie Chapati the Crotchety Conjurer is confronted by a wizzer ganger, Sharon the Shy Shaman and her 2 mundane pals, Billy and Bones. They're Rubble City surrounded by (semi-)demolished buildings occupied by beggars and homeless lowlife under an open sky.

Charlie the Crotchety Conjurer calls up a City spirit to use its Accident power on all three gangers to teach them a lesson. Now, Billy and Bones, being mundanes, cannot choose what domains they are in standing out in the open but having hung out with Sharon the Shy Shaman for ages now, they know enough to try to run into one of the beggar-occupied semi-demolished buildings where the City spirit cannot follow as it's the domain of Hearth spirits.

Sharon the Shy Shaman knows her pals don't have a chance of outrunning the City spirit; standing in overlapping domains of City spirits and Wind spirits, she summons a Wind spirit to use its Movement power to let her run into a building.

Now, by summoning a Wind spirit, Sharon the Shy Shaman chooses to be in the domain of the Wind spirit, does that mean that the City spirit can't affect her? The rules clearly state that a spirit cannot affect a person in another domain, afterall.

My take on this is that the City spirit can still affect Sharon as she is physically in the overlapping domains of both the City spirit and Wind spirit. The domain "exclusivity" only applies to physically changing domains where there are no overlapping domains and to summoner of the spirit. Otherwise, it makes for a very ridiculous situation where shamans who find themselves the prey of a spirit simply "choose" to be in another domain.

Comments?

The "change of domains" a shaman faces is a psychological difference, it in no way affects what spirits can affect the shaman, that is a geographic limit.

Psychological? Kewl beans! Explains a lot. I couldn't remember if it was a mental thing or a magical difference. Thanks, HoV.

Actually Spotlight, a Shaman can order spirits around all the time, but a willful spirit who has been abused by this shaman (or shamen in general) is very likely to play 'lawful evil'. Ie: do thing to the letter in such a way that it's not beneficial. Attack him? Sure... hit-miss-bye. They have 'attitude' is all. (I don't mind being told I'm wrong here, but please provide a page reference if you do).

Sphynx

Personally I would have put that down to elemental type behaviour (cos they are often described as resenting their servitude) not nature spirits.

As I said, its not page reference type stuff. there's definately nothing specific concerning shaman and their spirits. But under Totems I'm pretty sure theres stuff about displeasing the totem. Maybe this should be classified under a 'roleplay and interepretation of the game world' heading rather than a 'can or can not' one?

Question about all of this Spirits stuff

When calling great form nature spirits.

Don't you first have to summon a normal spirit? Doesnt that mean you have to stand in his domain to first call it, and then do a second test to give it it's great form so it can go beyond?

So lets say you're on a boat, you can't call an earth spirit to then greatform it. But if you were on shore and summoned the earth spirit then greatformed it, And then went on the boat you would still have it's services.

Maybe I'm just understanding this all wrong.

That's an accurate analogy CoalHeart.

Sphynx

ok, and now I eat words again...

I was thinking specifically of the Mojave desert and uhebe crater with regard spirits not doing as they're told. However, having just re-read the IC parts and the OOC rules, it just says they act as if you've robbed them of their freedom and basically woe betide you if they go uncontrolled.

I thought there was something there under toxic zones, but I can't find my copy of target wastelands to look it up so its a moot point.

Can I just say that even though I may get things completely wrong now and again - I DO have a fairly good grasp of the rules. I've just been playing it for a long time, SR2 especially, and in SR2 there was a lot more consistency and realism (by which I mean lots of in character justifications and flavour) to help you make judgement calls on the magical theory side of things. A lot of my assumptions probably come from there.

In any case, I have no problem with being told I'm wrong. If anything, this helps me learn the rules better - its like having a Shadowrun exam available to take 24-7-365, and when I fail the exam, I remember why and learn. So thanks for everyone who picks up the flaws in my arguments!

Analogy? I'm confused. Stop picking on me.


so which is it, call from anywhere, or call on home turf and then be able to transport else where?

A spirit must be conjured within its domain, but a great form nature spirit can then follow the shaman anywhere.

Thanks for the sustain LOS thing it was what i was looking for.

SR3 page 55, second paragraph under "aspected magicians" states that spell points can be used for spells, foci, and/or pre-conjured elementals.

Since initiation is not described until MitS, there is no reference to initiating at character generation in SR3 or the Companion. I cannot find a direct support for it in MitS right now, might be looking in the wrong places.

Support for using spell points that way is at least inferred by how they can be used like karma for all other magical needs. GM call.

Shadowrun Companion, page 15, third paragraph under 'Resources'.

Where it say that?? I've just read the example on that page (Man-of-many-names) and it doesn't say that. What it does say tho is that i can ask with wing spirit to save my hoop, then conjurer a city spirit to conceal me.

Your choice of domain only effects what spirits you can summon. Not what can effect you.

@Shockwave IIc. Yeah, otherwise you could avoid being attacked by spirits by choosing not to be in their domain. And you could never damage one spirit with another unless they held the same domains.

Err... let's go with not so much. If a spirit has access to you, you can be affected by it. Otherwise, spirits would be so useless there wouldn't even be a conjuring skill. So, you can be attacked by a spirit who's domain is, say, mountain, while in a forested mountain area, even if you chose to be in the forest domain. I mean, what's to stop a samurai from saying he's in the wrong domain to be attacked by a spirit just because it's convenient.

That also means that spirits can affect each other. These are not completely seperate realities, just different (and overlapping) jurisdictions.

Thread necromancy again while searching for an answer to a question I think I will just ask in another post. I drug this up as there is a lot of different ideas about domains and what spirits can do within their domain and how characters are determined to be in a domain.

Basic rule #1) Nature spirits are mostly limited by their domains.
Basic rule #2) Domains overlap.
Think of it as one of those charts with overlapping circles. As has been pointed out, wind and city domains overlap at many points.
Basic rule #3) A shaman without invoking can only conjure 1 spirit from a domain at one time.
Basic rule #4) If a shaman leaves the domain (or mentally chooses to think he is in another overlapping domain), he no longer controls the spirit from the domain he left, but that spirit will continue to carry out his order(s) until sunrise/sunset, or it is disrupted, killed, another shaman controls it - basically, it is stopped.
Basic rule #5) just because the shaman mentally changed domains does not mean he actually left any overlapping domain he was in.

What this means to me - in the OP scenario, the shaman could be in the building and if it qualifies as a hearth domain (do people live there as in eat and sleep and call it home?) he may conjure a hearth spirit and order it to use a confusion on anyone in the building who sees him. The shaman then goes to the roof or out a window and gets into position to graffiti the 140th floor. As soon as he has left the building, he is in an overlapping domain of sky and city spirits. He conjures a city spirit and asks it to conceal him, and perhaps use its guard power prevent an accidental fall. He then summons a wind spirit and commands it to guard him against an accident and if he should become air born, gently catch him and put him down in a safe place. All 3 spirits will do as commanded, although the first 2 cannot be further commanded since he chose to switch domains.

It also means - a PC is having a city spirit conceal him in the Seattle rain as he tries to enter a corporate compound across mostly paved terrain with some fences preventing easy access. An NPC shaman atop the building happens to be guarding against incursions and summons a storm spirit, getting 3 successes. He commands it to conceal himself and itself, then to use confusion on the trespassing shaman and his spirit, then disable them with its innate lightning bolt spell. The PC shaman realizes he is under attack by a sky spirit. He cannot avoid it by choosing to claim he is in a city domain as long as he is still in a storm domain. But he may order his city spirit to attack the sky spirit. It will likely need to switch to the astral plane to reach it, meaning the concealment power gets dropped. The sky spirit can fight the city spirit or move out of what is determined as the city domain so the city spirit cannot follow it. Moving out of the city domain doesn't mean it cannot keep firing off lightning bolts, but the increased distance may impose further vision modifiers through the rain. A better option may have been to have the city spirit attack the NPC shaman, but then there would not be a situation where spirits of different domains being able to directly attack each other.