 A few questions on Regeneration |
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 Nov 7 2003, 02:57 AM
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#51
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760  |
In regards to stats, I don't see them as being more crippled. They lost a high priority slot, but they didn't have to split attributes. Yes, they were weaker than the critter counterparts, but that's why I'd be fine letting a PC play one! Considering the rules in the 3rd edition for regeneration (heal all damage in human form while wearing armor each turn), if I let PCs play shapeshifters I might as well let them play dragons! (Not great dragons, just measly little ones that I can pick on). The only thing I'd really want to change about the 2nd edition version is let them do physical damage with their natural weapons. Otherwise they're great; they're cool, they're realistic and they're balanced.
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Nov 7 2003, 03:10 AM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20-October 03 From: Renton, Washington Member No.: 5,743 |
Zazen:
SR Companion Page 36 Regeneration Section Para 3, "Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or its cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, roll 1D6. On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules." I don't see an exception here for going over the overflow limit. To me, this specifically states that they don't follow the normal rules for death until they have failed their roll. If you get something else out of the same statement, then I don't think we can accomplish much by continuing to debate it. :) Kagetenshi:
My statement should definitely be construed as restricted to the effect of the damage on a regenerating creature. Otherwise, dead is dead. |
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Nov 7 2003, 06:07 AM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Me either. I see nothing that exempts them from it. :P Yes, they may die if they roll a 1, but I don't see anything that says that they may not die if they roll 2-6. In fact, the earlier flavor text seems to support the notion that they are still susceptible to massive amounts of damage despite their regenerative powers. |
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Nov 7 2003, 04:07 PM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, if memory serves, when the regenner rolls his d6 and doesn't fail, the damage disappears (I think that was the 2nd ed wording). So, the creature couldn't even get any overdamage at all without first failing the d6 roll.
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Nov 7 2003, 04:19 PM
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#55
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
edit- nevermind, I posted something that wasn't sound.
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Nov 7 2003, 05:27 PM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In the shadows of the SK Arcology Essen, ADL Member No.: 1,934 |
In 3rd Edition the damage vanishes the next round after the creature got it. So if you have some actions after the creature you can kill it with overdamage. |
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Nov 8 2003, 01:06 AM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20-October 03 From: Renton, Washington Member No.: 5,743 |
Zazen:
It says, in the same paragraph, "For any other result, the character suffers the standard combat penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn." Zazen:
Yes, but the book specifically deals with that and the shapeshifter has a higher chance of dying in that case, dying on a 1 or 2. Rock-Steady:
Quite a few of us have argued that simple overdamage doesn't kill a shapeshifter. |
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Nov 8 2003, 11:42 AM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In the shadows of the SK Arcology Essen, ADL Member No.: 1,934 |
Nothing wrong with that. But i dont agree. |
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Nov 8 2003, 04:27 PM
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#59
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
There are holes in the regeneration rules you could drive a citymaster through. For instance, it doesn't actually say that stun damage heals quickly, overdamage doesn't kill the shifter, or that any non-deadly injury heals. The rules as written only appear to kick in when the shifter takes a deadly wound... which is odd.
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Nov 8 2003, 08:20 PM
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#60
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
You've slightly misquoted the text. It says "For any other result the character suffers the standard damage(not combat) penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted..." Note that a standard penalty associated with taking your body rating in overdamage is death. |
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Nov 8 2003, 08:58 PM
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#61
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Correct, which unless the magic number was rolled, all that damage vanishes at the beginning of the next turn.
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Nov 8 2003, 09:06 PM
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#62
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Yes, but he's arguing that the death effect is one which cannot be reversed. He may well be right, too. |
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Nov 8 2003, 09:42 PM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In the shadows of the SK Arcology Essen, ADL Member No.: 1,934 |
Thats the point. In the next round. The critter still has the damage if it gets more damage, so it must be dead if the damage exceeds its body rating. If the round ends before the critter can receive more damage its lucky. *g* Btw The german critter states that they dont regenerate stun damage. I like two different rules.... [edit] Spelling |
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Nov 9 2003, 12:37 AM
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#64
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20-October 03 From: Renton, Washington Member No.: 5,743 |
Zazen:
I'm sorry, missed that one. . . Zazen:
Yes, I don't think that anyone ever argued that if you FAIL the roll and have more than your body in overdamage you will not die, simply that if you MAKE the roll you don't die. . . I don't really think there is any real point in continuing to argue this issue, no one is going to change their mind without an official ruling. |
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Nov 9 2003, 12:47 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Any chance you could print up the full text, preferably translated in English? ta. |
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Nov 9 2003, 12:47 AM
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#66
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Most people don't change their minds WITH an official ruling =)
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Nov 9 2003, 01:46 AM
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#67
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Please reread my post, and the book quote in particular. It's talking about what happens when you make the roll. :P |
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Nov 9 2003, 01:54 AM
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#68
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
And what, praytell, is an "official ruling"? ;) |
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Nov 9 2003, 03:03 AM
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#69
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 20-October 03 From: Renton, Washington Member No.: 5,743 |
And it says that those standard penalties disappear. . . |
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Nov 9 2003, 03:17 AM
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#70
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, he mayn't be. Nowhere in the rules does it say that death cannot be regenerated from, merely that a failed regeneration roll can result in death. ~J |
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Nov 9 2003, 04:57 AM
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#71
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
There is a vast difference between "may be right" and "is right". Death in Shadowrun is a very final thing and magic can't generally get you back from it. Do you allow someone at body + 1 overflow to come back with anything other than regeneration? What if someone hits them with a heal or stabilize spell before the end of the pass? If you don't allow that, it follows that regeneration shouldn't, either. After all, another kind of magic is healing the damage before the turn is over, and the PC is only suffering the effects of those wounds for the duration of the turn... Is death an effect that magic can reverse? [edit] Heh, turns out this was my "running target" post. Not that it matters, or anything. [/edit] |
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Nov 9 2003, 05:44 AM
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#72
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, but the suggestion that death from overdamage occurs was based on the fact that elsewhere in the rules it says that people die when they pass overdamage and it wasn't specifically contradicted in the Regen rules. In Regen, death isn't specifically stated as a cause of nonregeneration except in the case of a failed roll, so saying regen applies to death is equally valid, and I don't believe you can accept one but not the other and still claim to be "interpreting canon" rather than houseruling.
~J Postscript: I got my "Running Target" post tonight too. Woo! 1,000 posts in under a year! |
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Nov 9 2003, 09:28 AM
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#73
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Also magic healing is not regeneration, and neither are they comparable, or interchangable. One's rules are not the other's. For the point of this conbersation I feel it is like compariing apples and hookers. Very different things ;)
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Nov 9 2003, 11:22 AM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 26-February 02 From: In the shadows of the SK Arcology Essen, ADL Member No.: 1,934 |
Sorry dont own the german one personally. [Update] Ok my friend and me got it wrong. He though that we talked about the compendium (which states that PC shapeshifters can only regenerate physical damage). The german critter says damage (regardless if stun or physical) too. |
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Nov 9 2003, 02:37 PM
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#75
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
It doesn't matter what the respective rules for the two types of healing are. What's important is the question: "Once death has been suffered as a wound effect, can it be reversed if the damage is removed?" The shapeshifter entry specificly says that the creatures suffers wound penalties until the end of the turn. Death certainly qualifies as a "wound penalty". Following this train of thought, if a shapeshifter suffers the death penalty, can they come back? The rules do not specificly address this (hell, the word "overflow" doesn't even exist in the regeneration section of shapeshifter entry). |
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