Level Based SR? Options

[Garrowolf]

I've been thinking about this since the D20 conversion threads. I know that I will get alot of "Why are you doing this" type replies to this but bare with me.

I was thinking that it would be nice to have some of the advantages of a level based system without having to deal with D20's crap. I like that it is easy to measure power level with levels. I would like to make it so that it would have more specialized character types. I want to still use the same attributes and skills and their levels. The same dice mechanics and everything would apply.

Maybe low skill ranks to start with but have a specialization in a few skills that can go higher. Maybe edge goes up with level. Maybe magic rating for magic users. Maybe increase in contact points or something like that.

Basically I was thinking of a hybrid. I hate the D20 dice mechanic and the skill ratings not having any good idea what they mean for each rating. I like feats but it couldn't all be dice bonuses. Maybe something like elimination of penalties.

Any constructive ideas?

[fistandantilus4....]

You oculd perhaps try 1st edition AD&D. Very set in what your character class gets. There's no feats, but each class has it's own benefits and drawbacks. Each class also has it's own exp requirement to go up in levels as well.

I don't really liek the D&D system for spellcasting per day. The reason I suggest it though is because once you get to the upper levels (9+) the exp required to go gets really heavy, and most races have a max level they can achieve in a class. Could be one way to check against being able to take a ton of ddamage and shrug off firearms damage.

The D6 system used in West End GAmes Star Wars might convert a bit better especially for spell use (no drain though). But there's nothing like feats in that either.

[Garrowolf]

Well I wasn't going to change the in game mechanics much, just the character creation and development. It would be more along the lines of being able to say as a GM, "Everybody start with 6th level characters" and everyone could make up a character quickly with less of the balance issues then I usually have about an open build game. In game it would basically look the same as normal.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Garrowolf]

Well sometimes I would rather play a street level game and sometimes I would run higher.

Partially this is an experiment to see if it can be done and be useful. Maybe if I get it up and working I will use it or I may just post it on my website if somebody else wants to use it.

Mostly it's an experiment.

[Vvornth]

The D20 system creates ridiciously overpowered characters. While it works in a fantasy setting I just can't justify the existance in a modern one where characters easily can soak hails of MG fire even at mid-level.

[Backgammon]

I don't understand why limiting BPs wouldn't work for this?

[Grinder]

Was my first thought too.

[Garrowolf]

Well limiting BPs might end up how I do this. Each level would probably be based on a certain amount of BPs. I have to work that part out.

I'm not going to be using the D20 system. I am trying to see if Shadowrun can work with a level based character creation. I won't be using HPs. The damage system isn't what I was messing with. It would be as deadly as normal.

In Mr Johnson's Little Black Book there were a high level campagin and a low level campaign. I was thinking of trying to figure out a continuum to include them all. Have them range along 15 levels or so. The 1-5 would be low level. 6-10 would be standard level. 11-15 would be high level. I would have the skill caps start out lower and increase slowly. Provide an increasing amount of starting resources for each level. Also have an increasing amount of contact points. Different classes would have different mixes of course. I was thinking that edge could go up with level.

Races could have equivalent character level. Magic users would have one too. It would be similar to the older priority tables. Each level would have a certain magic rating and spells. They would cast as normal (I'm not planning on using DnD spells or spell system)
I was also thinking that more powerful cyberware could also have an ECL. It does make them more powerful.

Guys, this is not an attack. It is a thought experiment.

[Slump]

Personally, I think making a level-based shadowrun would be more work than it's worth.

One of the key features of shadowrun is that pretty much any mook can kill you, and you can pretty much kill any badass -- at least, in a straight up fight. The lethality of the system is key (in my opinion) to the mechanical basis of the settings flavor.

Another problem in a level-based system is that an increase in one area is automatically included with increase in another area. Take, for example, a person who's big thing is huge knowledge checks, a loremaster of sorts. Basically, the fact that they're a brainiac who spends all of their time in the library makes them better at fighting than a low-level brawler. To put in D&D 3.x terms, this guy is a 6th level d4 hit die 1/2 bab dude - with 10 con, he has 16 hp on average (max first level) and +3 bab, compared to a lvl 2 fighter -- 15 hp, +2 bab. The loremaster who barely leaves the library can beat up the fighter.

My suggestion for what I think you want -- make a few pre-gens of the various archetypes, and let the players improve them with finite resources granted.

So instead of getting to build the street sam from the ground up, they have the basic character already statted up, and they get to choose what they want to improve. The players still have the flexibility to make unique and customized characters, but they don't get carte blanch to sink all of their points into getting 20 dice with their Predator.

[wargear]

d20 is not the only level based system out there...try looking at the Palladium system...

[eidolon]

Agree with Slump. The level system takes away the lethality that is IMO necessary for SR to work.

Palladium suffers from the same "I'm low level, so I can't attack something that's high level" that d20 does, so I'm not sure what looking at it instead of d20 would change. When you boil them down, they are both the model of
-central abilities that increase on a set scale
-skills that you can increase incrementally as you level.

Don't get me wrong, I play and enjoy several systems that use a level system. Shadowrun isn't one of them, and I wouldn't ever want it to be. More power to anyone that does, though.

[sunnyside]

Alright so I think what you actually want out of all this level business is the ability to regulate how potent your characters can be in a way that BP cannot.

What I mean is even if you severly limited the BP for a group of runners, it's still very possible that they would throw nearly twenty dice at their specializations. They'd just be worthless for other things.

I'd say if you want to include levels it should be something of a regulator on skill and die pool sizes.

For example you could rule that a character can't have a skill higher than their level, they can't start with gear with an avaibility higher than twice their level, and they can't ever have a die pool higher than three times their level for any reason.

Therefore your standard shadowrunner is essentially a level 6 character. However if you wanted to you could run a level 3-4 street campaign and not have to worry about an uber combat monster with a lot of flaws showing up. Level 7 and 8 characters would be very potent.

If you want chars to "level" you could have it be a function of Karma. (i.e. once they get X Karma they become a higher level allowing them to improve their primary skills once again and throw some bigger die pools).

[Tanka]

One way I've thought about it is awarding BP instead of karma, allowing BP for initiation/binding (I'd have to work out the proper ratio), and award Karma Pool based on how many BP I give out in a session.

This would keep everyone around the same going-rate, and would make NPCs easier to build, because you know about where everyone should be.

It's only a thought right now, but it could work. You'd just be awarding far fewer BP over a period of time than you would be with karma.

[mmu1]

[Tanka]

Actually, D&D has a Massive Damage Threshold as well. 50 HP, make a Fort save (DC15) or die instantly.

Ed: D&D, dur. d20 ain't specific enough.

[mmu1]

[X-Kalibur]

[knasser]

An experienced player with plenty of cunning and a 400BP character, will wipe the floor with a inexperienced or less bright player with a 500 karma character.

Character "power" in Shadowrun is based on smarts and guile, not accuracy and high body. This is even true of dragons.

[Warmaster Lah]

I had an Idea to use a level system. But it was not for D20

Instead of Karma it would have been based on BP. And level up you get a certain number of BP points to spend however. And certain "feats" you could get at certain levels. But it was totally off the cuff. I only spent like 20 mins on it because I was bored one day and it was kind of entertaining.

[Tanka]

[mmu1]

[mmu1]

[Tanka]

Breaking? No, not necessarily. It brings in the highly-vaunted for "realism" some people scream for. (Well, I don't think it's realistic, then again, high-level D&D isn't realistic at all, so who cares?)

Drop it to 30. Scale the DC with the damage dealt. Scale the DC with character level. Who cares? Make it work for your campaign.

The beauty of the SRD (and D&D in general) is that it's all just the basics, and you can do whatever you damn well please with it in your game.

[Kagetenshi]

Then what's the point of buying the rules in the first place? You can just take the free SRD and adapt, but that's not what we're talking about.

~J