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Garrowolf
I've been thinking about this since the D20 conversion threads. I know that I will get alot of "Why are you doing this" type replies to this but bare with me.

I was thinking that it would be nice to have some of the advantages of a level based system without having to deal with D20's crap. I like that it is easy to measure power level with levels. I would like to make it so that it would have more specialized character types. I want to still use the same attributes and skills and their levels. The same dice mechanics and everything would apply.

Maybe low skill ranks to start with but have a specialization in a few skills that can go higher. Maybe edge goes up with level. Maybe magic rating for magic users. Maybe increase in contact points or something like that.

Basically I was thinking of a hybrid. I hate the D20 dice mechanic and the skill ratings not having any good idea what they mean for each rating. I like feats but it couldn't all be dice bonuses. Maybe something like elimination of penalties.

Any constructive ideas?
fistandantilus4.0
You oculd perhaps try 1st edition AD&D. Very set in what your character class gets. There's no feats, but each class has it's own benefits and drawbacks. Each class also has it's own exp requirement to go up in levels as well.

I don't really liek the D&D system for spellcasting per day. The reason I suggest it though is because once you get to the upper levels (9+) the exp required to go gets really heavy, and most races have a max level they can achieve in a class. Could be one way to check against being able to take a ton of ddamage and shrug off firearms damage.

The D6 system used in West End GAmes Star Wars might convert a bit better especially for spell use (no drain though). But there's nothing like feats in that either.
Garrowolf
Well I wasn't going to change the in game mechanics much, just the character creation and development. It would be more along the lines of being able to say as a GM, "Everybody start with 6th level characters" and everyone could make up a character quickly with less of the balance issues then I usually have about an open build game. In game it would basically look the same as normal.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Mar 19 2007, 03:30 AM)
Well I wasn't going to change the in game mechanics much, just the character creation and development. It would be more along the lines of being able to say as a GM, "Everybody start with 6th level characters" and everyone could make up a character quickly with less of the balance issues then I usually have about an open build game. In game it would basically look the same as normal.

So, what is the reason you don't want to say, "Everyone starts with 100 points"? Why exactly would you rather say "You're all level 3"? I think that, at least in my mind, this must be clarified for me to be able to think about the question.

You mentioned "balance issues" so I wonder if what annoys you is some players being good at chargen and some players being bad at chargen and getting less bang for the buck in combat (for example) from the same number of points. If that's the case, you can just tell everyone that they are restricted to material in the BBB at chargen rather than being able to draw on Man and Machine, Cannon Companion, etc. If that's what your concern was.
Garrowolf
Well sometimes I would rather play a street level game and sometimes I would run higher.

Partially this is an experiment to see if it can be done and be useful. Maybe if I get it up and working I will use it or I may just post it on my website if somebody else wants to use it.

Mostly it's an experiment.
Vvornth
The D20 system creates ridiciously overpowered characters. While it works in a fantasy setting I just can't justify the existance in a modern one where characters easily can soak hails of MG fire even at mid-level.
Backgammon
I don't understand why limiting BPs wouldn't work for this?
Grinder
Was my first thought too.
Garrowolf
Well limiting BPs might end up how I do this. Each level would probably be based on a certain amount of BPs. I have to work that part out.

I'm not going to be using the D20 system. I am trying to see if Shadowrun can work with a level based character creation. I won't be using HPs. The damage system isn't what I was messing with. It would be as deadly as normal.

In Mr Johnson's Little Black Book there were a high level campagin and a low level campaign. I was thinking of trying to figure out a continuum to include them all. Have them range along 15 levels or so. The 1-5 would be low level. 6-10 would be standard level. 11-15 would be high level. I would have the skill caps start out lower and increase slowly. Provide an increasing amount of starting resources for each level. Also have an increasing amount of contact points. Different classes would have different mixes of course. I was thinking that edge could go up with level.

Races could have equivalent character level. Magic users would have one too. It would be similar to the older priority tables. Each level would have a certain magic rating and spells. They would cast as normal (I'm not planning on using DnD spells or spell system)
I was also thinking that more powerful cyberware could also have an ECL. It does make them more powerful.

Guys, this is not an attack. It is a thought experiment.
Slump
Personally, I think making a level-based shadowrun would be more work than it's worth.

One of the key features of shadowrun is that pretty much any mook can kill you, and you can pretty much kill any badass -- at least, in a straight up fight. The lethality of the system is key (in my opinion) to the mechanical basis of the settings flavor.

Another problem in a level-based system is that an increase in one area is automatically included with increase in another area. Take, for example, a person who's big thing is huge knowledge checks, a loremaster of sorts. Basically, the fact that they're a brainiac who spends all of their time in the library makes them better at fighting than a low-level brawler. To put in D&D 3.x terms, this guy is a 6th level d4 hit die 1/2 bab dude - with 10 con, he has 16 hp on average (max first level) and +3 bab, compared to a lvl 2 fighter -- 15 hp, +2 bab. The loremaster who barely leaves the library can beat up the fighter.

My suggestion for what I think you want -- make a few pre-gens of the various archetypes, and let the players improve them with finite resources granted.

So instead of getting to build the street sam from the ground up, they have the basic character already statted up, and they get to choose what they want to improve. The players still have the flexibility to make unique and customized characters, but they don't get carte blanch to sink all of their points into getting 20 dice with their Predator.
wargear
d20 is not the only level based system out there...try looking at the Palladium system...
eidolon
Agree with Slump. The level system takes away the lethality that is IMO necessary for SR to work.

Palladium suffers from the same "I'm low level, so I can't attack something that's high level" that d20 does, so I'm not sure what looking at it instead of d20 would change. When you boil them down, they are both the model of
-central abilities that increase on a set scale
-skills that you can increase incrementally as you level.

Don't get me wrong, I play and enjoy several systems that use a level system. Shadowrun isn't one of them, and I wouldn't ever want it to be. More power to anyone that does, though.
sunnyside
Alright so I think what you actually want out of all this level business is the ability to regulate how potent your characters can be in a way that BP cannot.

What I mean is even if you severly limited the BP for a group of runners, it's still very possible that they would throw nearly twenty dice at their specializations. They'd just be worthless for other things.

I'd say if you want to include levels it should be something of a regulator on skill and die pool sizes.

For example you could rule that a character can't have a skill higher than their level, they can't start with gear with an avaibility higher than twice their level, and they can't ever have a die pool higher than three times their level for any reason.

Therefore your standard shadowrunner is essentially a level 6 character. However if you wanted to you could run a level 3-4 street campaign and not have to worry about an uber combat monster with a lot of flaws showing up. Level 7 and 8 characters would be very potent.

If you want chars to "level" you could have it be a function of Karma. (i.e. once they get X Karma they become a higher level allowing them to improve their primary skills once again and throw some bigger die pools).
Tanka
One way I've thought about it is awarding BP instead of karma, allowing BP for initiation/binding (I'd have to work out the proper ratio), and award Karma Pool based on how many BP I give out in a session.

This would keep everyone around the same going-rate, and would make NPCs easier to build, because you know about where everyone should be.

It's only a thought right now, but it could work. You'd just be awarding far fewer BP over a period of time than you would be with karma.
mmu1
QUOTE (eidolon @ Mar 19 2007, 01:03 PM)
Agree with Slump.  The level system takes away the lethality that is IMO necessary for SR to work.

D&D takes away the lethality that is necessary for SR to work.

There are plenty of d20 systems out there that do not.

Call of Cthulu D20 does it by simply having character gain very few hitpoints after first level.

Star Wars d20 does it (to a degree) by having wound and vitality points, instead of just HP, very high weapon damage codes, and a different critical hit mechanic.

Mutants and Masterminds handles it by not using hit points at all - instead, you need to make a resistance roll based on the power of the weapon.

D20 Modern and The Black Company d20 (to name just a couple that use this mechanic) have Massive Damage Thresholds - if you take more than a certain amount of damage from one attack, you need to save to avoid instant incapacitation / maiming, regardless of how many hit points you had left.


...not that I'm in a hurry to play SR d20, but there are d20 systems out there in which combat is plenty lethal.
Tanka
Actually, D&D has a Massive Damage Threshold as well. 50 HP, make a Fort save (DC15) or die instantly.

Ed: D&D, dur. d20 ain't specific enough.
mmu1
QUOTE (Tanka)
Actually, D&D has a Massive Damage Threshold as well. 50 HP, make a Fort save (DC15) or die instantly.

Ed: D&D, dur. d20 ain't specific enough.

I didn't mention D&D because there, at least, the MDT really doesn't make combat meaningfully more lethal - 50 points of damage per hit tends to be a rare thing even at relatively high levels (massive criticals aside) and when it does become more common, 1) Most characters can make a DC 15 save fairly easily and 2) If something can do 50 points of damage with a single blow, the MDT is usually the least of your problems.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Tanka @ Mar 19 2007, 03:44 PM)
Actually, D&D has a Massive Damage Threshold as well.  50 HP, make a Fort save (DC15) or die instantly.

Ed: D&D, dur.  d20 ain't specific enough.

I didn't mention D&D because there, at least, the MDT really doesn't make combat meaningfully more lethal - 50 points of damage per hit tends to be a rare thing even at relatively high levels (massive criticals aside) and when it does become more common, 1) Most characters can make a DC 15 save fairly easily and 2) If something can do 50 points of damage with a single blow, the MDT is usually the least of your problems.

Unless you've ever seen a dwarf paladin crit with a waraxe. 52 points of damage at level 4, it was a sight to behold.
knasser

An experienced player with plenty of cunning and a 400BP character, will wipe the floor with a inexperienced or less bright player with a 500 karma character.

Character "power" in Shadowrun is based on smarts and guile, not accuracy and high body. This is even true of dragons.
Warmaster Lah
I had an Idea to use a level system. But it was not for D20

Instead of Karma it would have been based on BP. And level up you get a certain number of BP points to spend however. And certain "feats" you could get at certain levels. But it was totally off the cuff. I only spent like 20 mins on it because I was bored one day and it was kind of entertaining.
Tanka
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Mar 19 2007, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE (Tanka @ Mar 19 2007, 03:44 PM)
Actually, D&D has a Massive Damage Threshold as well.  50 HP, make a Fort save (DC15) or die instantly.

Ed: D&D, dur.  d20 ain't specific enough.

I didn't mention D&D because there, at least, the MDT really doesn't make combat meaningfully more lethal - 50 points of damage per hit tends to be a rare thing even at relatively high levels (massive criticals aside) and when it does become more common, 1) Most characters can make a DC 15 save fairly easily and 2) If something can do 50 points of damage with a single blow, the MDT is usually the least of your problems.

Unless you've ever seen a dwarf paladin crit with a waraxe. 52 points of damage at level 4, it was a sight to behold.

Or, hell, anyone built for critical damage at any level beyond, say, 2nd.

Let's see if I can recall the exact wording on this game.

Player 1: (Over 50 damage)! Yes, Massive Damage!
GM: His Fort save is insane, there's no real need to roll it, he'll just save.
Player 2: No, no, you made Player 3 roll it last time, and his Fort save is way above 15 anyway.
GM: Fine. *roll* ...Guys... He botched. He falls over, dead.

So, yes, the roll does matter. Botches happen.

And, you, as the GM, can say "Massive Damage starts at your Constitution score." Which makes Con even more important than for HP and Fort saves (and a few skills). It suddenly means how often you'll be making Massive Damage saves.
mmu1
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Mar 19 2007, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE (Tanka @ Mar 19 2007, 03:44 PM)
Actually, D&D has a Massive Damage Threshold as well.  50 HP, make a Fort save (DC15) or die instantly.

Ed: D&D, dur.  d20 ain't specific enough.

I didn't mention D&D because there, at least, the MDT really doesn't make combat meaningfully more lethal - 50 points of damage per hit tends to be a rare thing even at relatively high levels (massive criticals aside) and when it does become more common, 1) Most characters can make a DC 15 save fairly easily and 2) If something can do 50 points of damage with a single blow, the MDT is usually the least of your problems.

Unless you've ever seen a dwarf paladin crit with a waraxe. 52 points of damage at level 4, it was a sight to behold.

Yes, well... Like I said, massive criticals aside. (though I don't know if a paltry 52 points of damage qualifies, I've seen waraxe crits in the 75-80 point range wink.gif) And the MTD is still irrelevant, in that case - at 4th level, 52 points of damage is going to kill a lot of things outright.
mmu1
QUOTE (Tanka)
Or, hell, anyone built for critical damage at any level beyond, say, 2nd.

Let's see if I can recall the exact wording on this game.

Player 1: (Over 50 damage)! Yes, Massive Damage!
GM: His Fort save is insane, there's no real need to roll it, he'll just save.
Player 2: No, no, you made Player 3 roll it last time, and his Fort save is way above 15 anyway.
GM: Fine. *roll* ...Guys... He botched. He falls over, dead.

So, yes, the roll does matter. Botches happen.

And, you, as the GM, can say "Massive Damage starts at your Constitution score." Which makes Con even more important than for HP and Fort saves (and a few skills). It suddenly means how often you'll be making Massive Damage saves.

*sigh*

I said meaningfully more lethal. Everyone who's played long enough probably has that one story where some big bad dropped as a result of a failed Massive Damage save, but I don't think it's happened more than once or twice per campaign, in all the time I spent playing 3E and 3.5 D&D.

And as for your second point... The GM can say whatever he wants, but that kind of house rule - MDT=Con - doesn't accomplish anything except for breaking D&D, so I'm not sure that I see the relevance.
Tanka
Breaking? No, not necessarily. It brings in the highly-vaunted for "realism" some people scream for. (Well, I don't think it's realistic, then again, high-level D&D isn't realistic at all, so who cares?)

Drop it to 30. Scale the DC with the damage dealt. Scale the DC with character level. Who cares? Make it work for your campaign.

The beauty of the SRD (and D&D in general) is that it's all just the basics, and you can do whatever you damn well please with it in your game.
Kagetenshi
Then what's the point of buying the rules in the first place? You can just take the free SRD and adapt, but that's not what we're talking about.

~J
eidolon
Good point re: not all d20 systems are D&D. I often end up thinking that way, due to the relatively low level of attention the other systems get compared to D&D.

And of course, given that for every non-D&D d20 system there is out there, I can show you at least one, if not two or three, systems that do "that" better than d20. wink.gif Often, it's the "real system" for that game before the license holder jumped on the bandwagon and tried to cash in on the d20 cow.

As far as it goes, in SR3, I think the priority system controlled character power pretty well. No, it's not as stringent as a level based system with set ups/level, but it was slightly less open to mad twinkage than the BP system. So, if sunnyside is correct in that you want to regulate potency, perhaps you could come up with a Priority system for the SR4 rules, and then just be more careful about how you hand out the K. (Don't know how well it would work, mind you.)
knasser

I would like to offer something more helpful to the original poster, but the way that you can put your BP into anything means that BP alone are not a good guide to how powerful a character is. I can show you a very, very badly constructed character at 600BP that would get kicked all over the place by two standard gangers. In order to really make a level system in Shadowrun that you can use to guage a character's power, you're going to need to control where the BP are spent. And that would get ugly very quickly. I don't know how you'd implement a controlled BP spending system in a good way.
Tanka
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Then what's the point of buying the rules in the first place? You can just take the free SRD and adapt, but that's not what we're talking about.

~J

Generally, rules that you don't have to think out. Prestige Classes beyond those found in the DMG. More monsters. More feats. More spells. More history. More skills. More stuff.

QUOTE (eidolon)
Good point re: not all d20 systems are D&D.  I often end up thinking that way, due to the relatively low level of attention the other systems get compared to D&D.

Yeah, most people overlook this as well. They see d20 and assume D&D. Not so. Star Wars d20, BESM d20, d20 Modern... The list goes on and on of games that people do play that are d20-based, but not D&D. And then, of course, the game that spawned it all, D&D.

QUOTE (eidolon)
And of course, given that for every non-D&D d20 system there is out there, I can show you at least one, if not two or three, systems that do "that" better than d20.  wink.gif Often, it's the "real system" for that game before the license holder jumped on the bandwagon and tried to cash in on the d20 cow.

Better is subjective. Once you learn d20, you can hop in on any d20 game ever and know the rules, barring maybe one or two changes in the core rules (and maybe some houserules). That's the allure of d20, you can talk shop with any other d20 player out there, and play any d20 game out there with the right books.

If I talk about Shadowrun, and somebody else mentions Cyberpunk 2020, then somebody else picks up Cybergeneration, and then we get d20 Cyberscape in there... That's four complete, different systems that one person alone may not know all of.
Kagetenshi
How to make a bad character in SR3:

Step 1: buy all stats at 1.

Step 2 (optional): Become Physmage. Spend all six power points on magical power, spend all resulting spell points on self-only Powerbolt, Manabolt, Stunbolt, touch-range Magic Fingers, etc.

Step 3: Use all active skill point to purchase knowledge skills at rating 6, noting that they'll be at double cost after the first level.

Step 4: take the ¥500 Resources option, using the bonus BPs to buy more knowledge skills.

~J
Tanka
Or:

Buy Cyberware totalling more than six Essence, at base grade.

Bang, dead.

(Then again, that's not really a character anymore. So.)
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (knasser)
I can show you a very, very badly constructed character at 600BP that would get kicked all over the place by two standard gangers.

Pretty much. The OP still hasn't defined by what he means by levels being "more balanced", but rather than building some kind of abstract classification for a broad range of characters so that nobody is too powerful, it would probably be much easier to simply tell the players that they may only build mediocre characters for this campaign. That it's not supposed to be about powerhouses so just make crappy characters. There's nothing wrong with that. Towards the end of my days playing SR I made exclusively crappy characters just to maximize my challenge.
Crossfire
How about using BECKS (Bethyaga's Complete Karma System) as a reference for level? For example, a starting character, let's say level 5 (professional shadowrunner) would start with 425-450 points (I would say 450). Each increment of 50 would give another level. Alternatively, you could use a thing like this:

Level----------------Karma points (BeCKS-style)
--1------------------250 points
--2------------------300 points
--3------------------350 points
--4------------------400 points
--5------------------450 points (professional runner)
--6------------------500 points
--7------------------550 points
--8------------------600 points
--9------------------750 points
-10------------------800 points (prime runner)
-11------------------900 points
-12------------------1000 points
-13------------------1100 points
-14------------------1200 points
-15------------------1300 points (legendary runner)
-16------------------1450 points
-17------------------1600 points
-18------------------1750 points
-19------------------1900 points
-20------------------2000 points (gm's girlfriend)

Note: I've never seen a character built with 2000 points so I'm not even sure those numbers make any sense...

Also, if you like, you could say that karma pool is according to your level (eg. 1 karma pool at level 1, 2 at level 3, 3 at level 5, 8 at level 15, etc.)

Levels could also give you maximums on skills (level 1=max 2 on skills, level 5=max 6, level 10=max 11, etc.), as well as setting limits during character creation (like no more than 50 000 nuyen at level 1, no more than 1000000 nuyen at level 5, etc.).

Levels could also have something to do with the reputation factor and thus increase the chance of being recognized. Levels could also help with certain social skills when your reputation is known. Edges and Flaws could modify your level for the purpose of reputation. Your level would probably represent your professional rating (how about having level 3 guards guarding a place? One of them could be level 5. Maybe Lone Star has mostly level 2-4 employees. You might have to be at least level 6 to be a Red Samurai (would be kinda like a prestige class that would give you backing and other benefits).

If you like Earthdawn's system, you could do something similar. For example, to attain level 6, a character would need at least one skill at level 6 and 2 at level 4, to attain level 10, a character would need at least one skill at level 10, one at level 8, and 2 at level 2, etc.). You could go as far as dividing that into active and knowledge skills, contacts, etc. You could expect a level 10 character to have, for example, at least 10 points worth of contacts (level 1, level 2, level 3).

Levels could also be used as a way to "initiate". Magic attribute could be equal to your level +1 (or you could tweak it and start characters at level 6 and say magic equals level). Characters wouldn't need to pay karma to initiate that way, they would become more proficient at magical stuff naturally. It might be unfair to mundanes though...

It would be nice to know what to expect from characters levels. What kind of runs would you expect for a level 3 character? A level 5 char? A level 10 char?

Just some thoughts... Is that what you were looking for?

Peace!

Crossfire

P.S. Anyone else besides me likes BeCKS?
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Crossfire)
P.S. Anyone else besides me likes BeCKS?

Bethyaga, maybe.
Tanka
Yeah, that's probably about it.

Numbers are too fiddly for my tastes. BP works fine enough in almost any case.
Kagetenshi
I would swap "legendary" and "prime" on that chart.

~J
Garrowolf
Okay some people seem to still misunderstand what I am talking about. I am NOT talking about using the d20 mechanics. There will be NO HPs. It would use the same mechanics as SR4 for the most part.

A Class/Level system is about the character creation. It doesn't have to be about the HPs. I hate Hit Points myself.

It isn't about having a limited number of build points. Each level would probably have a limited number but that is just because of progression.

This isn't to find an answer to a problem so much as an experiment. I am trying to see if it can be done. I am also trying to see if I can use it to create characters that make more sense to me.

In some ways I think that class based systems can be used to make more logical characters. They make sure that you don't create totally useless characters. They also show that there is progression to things. BP systems are so open ended that you can easily create both overly powerful and gimped characters at the same time. A new player, or a player new to a specific style for a game, can more easily create a character with a class and levels then without. You can condense more rules and such into the class structure instead of lots of notes about things like initiation progression.

It also means that I can stop players from creating characters that I find imbalanced and not get into arguments because they are fighting me about it.

That is if this works.

I guess part of the reason for this is that I don't see any game system as a whole. I see it as a package deal with standard parts and a few new ideas. Each part is a way of dealing with certain problems and they are mostly interchangable. Some ways are better at dealing with certain styles then others. They favor certain things.

For instance in a high tech modern setting it is more necessary to deliniate time accurately. Things are measured in small units because we have such rapid weapons. In a fantasy setting I think it is better to have slower chunks of time and a more fluid action system. It should have more of a give and take to it.

When I created a fantasy game partially out of SR4 I dropped the specific time contraints and used a fluid system based on cascading dice pool. Each action after the first lost a dice. This included your defenses until your next turn. Once you ran out of dice then that was it. You had no more dice. You had to decide each turn if you were going to go all out or hold back to defend later. Movement ate dice as well. Wielding a weapon too heavy or unfamiliar would eat extra dice as well.

It was simple to use and very fluid. It worked great. It wouldn't work in a modern or future setting though.

So no more about HPs. That isn't a factor.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
I am trying to see if it can be done.
yes
QUOTE
I am also trying to see if I can use it to create characters that make more sense to me.
no

Aside from my guesses at the answers you will find, your fantasy setting house rules remind me of Star Wars D6.
eidolon
QUOTE (Tanka)
Better is subjective.


Very true.

QUOTE (Tanka)
Once you learn d20, you can hop in on any d20 game ever and know the rules, barring maybe one or two changes in the core rules (and maybe some houserules). 


That has never been a perk to me. I want different systems. d20 is too...giant monotheistic religion to suit me. Poor analogy, perhaps, but it's the best I can do before coffee.

QUOTE (Tanka)
That's four complete, different systems that one person alone may not know all of.

Maybe your hypothetical person should "get out more" in the gaming world. biggrin.gif
Tanka
QUOTE (eidolon)
That has never been a perk to me. I want different systems. d20 is too...giant monotheistic religion to suit me. Poor analogy, perhaps, but it's the best I can do before coffee.

That's fine, some people like it, though. Some people like to know that they can join a Star Wars d20 game one day, and a BESM d20 game the next, and D&D another.

QUOTE (eidolon)
Maybe your hypothetical person should "get out more" in the gaming world. biggrin.gif

Maybe they can't, or don't want to?
eidolon
Well then I'd disagree with them, obviously. It wasn't an argument so much as my observations/opinions.
Tanka
Just sayin'. To each their own. Some like d20 for its universality, some don't.
hyzmarca
A class-level based system sort of defeats the purpose of a point-buy based system. The two are generally incompatible.

If you are concerned about class-levels then it would be better to pregen stats for your players and let them choose between your pregened skeletons.
Garrowolf
Crossfire, Yes! This is the kind of thing I was thinking. I am debating on if I want the system to be 15 levels or 20. I am leaning towards 15 because most of the time that character has become too powerful to play. So this would make it 1-5 as low level. 6-10 as moderate standard levels, and 11-15 as high levels.

Looking at the skill ratings I was thinking about 3 for the skill max for low, 5 for the max for moderate, and 7 the max for high. I was also trying to figure out a class / cross class type of thing. With the skill groups it would be easy. I could just say that combat group and stealth are class and then the rest are non class. I'm not sure of how to do the skill max for non class skills. Maybe have it as skill max of 2 for low, 3 for moderate and 4 for high. Not sure yet.

I was looking at the Becks thing and I like it. I will probably use it to keep the skill ranks lower and more realistic. I had a thought that maybe I would break it up into groups. Maybe have a certain number of points that go to class skills, a certain number that go to non class skills and a certain number that go to Knowledges so that characters develop across the board and not all in one area.

I want to start characters off with a set of attribute points from the beginning. No rolls. It would be on the lower end though and not too powerful. Maybe a little above average. Then have bonuses to certain attributes based on what that class favors. Still working on this idea.

Another idea I had would be to cover some of the equipment and extra attribute points and such. Have the ability to take a level to gain more points for this stuff. Basically it would give you wiggle room in a class system. This would fit in with advantages and disadvantages and such. I was also thinking about some package deals for cyberware and such that would also use up a level.

Any feedback on this?
Garrowolf
Another idea I just had is that I could allow the players to choose a certain number of skills to become class skills for them. Maybe have this as a part of the level system. As you go up you can include a few more skills as class skills.
eidolon
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
Another idea I just had is that I could allow the players to choose a certain number of skills to become class skills for them. Maybe have this as a part of the level system. As you go up you can include a few more skills as class skills.

Actually, that'd probably work pretty well. Just do it the same way as ranks. Buying class skills cost x karma, whereas buying non class skills would cost (multiplier)x karma.
Fezig
For me there is sort of a basic line. I play D&D for its epic fantasy where I can charge in wielding a big sword and not worrying about the town guard. The fact is for the most part the D20 system is built for epic heroes, even d20 modern pretty much fully lacked grit. The D20 system is made for one type of game, and the SR system is built around another. SR doesn't make for as good of a medieval slash and hack game where you can wade into 50 goblins and come out holding 50 heads, its made so that some mook Ork ganger can step out from behind a garbage can and grease you right on the street.

As for the level and class systems, I sort of see the same point. A lack of a class system to me is one of the major benefits of the SR system. I like the fact that no matter what my specialty is I can be serviceable at just about anything else. I always find myself looking for loopholes and pulling odd stunts in D&D to make my characters useful in more situation (same in d20 modern to for all its worth). As for the level system, the one posted above as a level to karma table is pretty much all you should have in SR, otherwise its a different set of ideas. I guess what I mean to say is that what your trying to do sounds like more trouble than its worth. You can probably go out and find another system that better suits the needs you list, much as I had to find SR when I found d20 modern severely lacking for my purposes.
Wounded Ronin
So, the OP just doesn't like characters who are very good in some areas but poor in others, and would rather use character classes so that it's impossible for a newb to make a poor character?

All he has to do is use the pregenerated starting characters. That's all you need. No need to think of an extra level-type framework. That's just more static and noise. There's a reason that the pregens in all the editions of SR were slightly crappy and not uber.
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