[X] My Assistant

[eidolon]

Good point re: not all d20 systems are D&D. I often end up thinking that way, due to the relatively low level of attention the other systems get compared to D&D.

And of course, given that for every non-D&D d20 system there is out there, I can show you at least one, if not two or three, systems that do "that" better than d20. ;) Often, it's the "real system" for that game before the license holder jumped on the bandwagon and tried to cash in on the d20 cow.

As far as it goes, in SR3, I think the priority system controlled character power pretty well. No, it's not as stringent as a level based system with set ups/level, but it was slightly less open to mad twinkage than the BP system. So, if sunnyside is correct in that you want to regulate potency, perhaps you could come up with a Priority system for the SR4 rules, and then just be more careful about how you hand out the K. (Don't know how well it would work, mind you.)

[knasser]

I would like to offer something more helpful to the original poster, but the way that you can put your BP into anything means that BP alone are not a good guide to how powerful a character is. I can show you a very, very badly constructed character at 600BP that would get kicked all over the place by two standard gangers. In order to really make a level system in Shadowrun that you can use to guage a character's power, you're going to need to control where the BP are spent. And that would get ugly very quickly. I don't know how you'd implement a controlled BP spending system in a good way.

[Tanka]

[Kagetenshi]

How to make a bad character in SR3:

Step 1: buy all stats at 1.

Step 2 (optional): Become Physmage. Spend all six power points on magical power, spend all resulting spell points on self-only Powerbolt, Manabolt, Stunbolt, touch-range Magic Fingers, etc.

Step 3: Use all active skill point to purchase knowledge skills at rating 6, noting that they'll be at double cost after the first level.

Step 4: take the ¥500 Resources option, using the bonus BPs to buy more knowledge skills.

~J

[Tanka]

Or:

Buy Cyberware totalling more than six Essence, at base grade.

Bang, dead.

(Then again, that's not really a character anymore. So.)

[Wounded Ronin]

[Crossfire]

How about using BECKS (Bethyaga's Complete Karma System) as a reference for level? For example, a starting character, let's say level 5 (professional shadowrunner) would start with 425-450 points (I would say 450). Each increment of 50 would give another level. Alternatively, you could use a thing like this:

Level----------------Karma points (BeCKS-style)
--1------------------250 points
--2------------------300 points
--3------------------350 points
--4------------------400 points
--5------------------450 points (professional runner)
--6------------------500 points
--7------------------550 points
--8------------------600 points
--9------------------750 points
-10------------------800 points (prime runner)
-11------------------900 points
-12------------------1000 points
-13------------------1100 points
-14------------------1200 points
-15------------------1300 points (legendary runner)
-16------------------1450 points
-17------------------1600 points
-18------------------1750 points
-19------------------1900 points
-20------------------2000 points (gm's girlfriend)

Note: I've never seen a character built with 2000 points so I'm not even sure those numbers make any sense...

Also, if you like, you could say that karma pool is according to your level (eg. 1 karma pool at level 1, 2 at level 3, 3 at level 5, 8 at level 15, etc.)

Levels could also give you maximums on skills (level 1=max 2 on skills, level 5=max 6, level 10=max 11, etc.), as well as setting limits during character creation (like no more than 50 000 nuyen at level 1, no more than 1000000 nuyen at level 5, etc.).

Levels could also have something to do with the reputation factor and thus increase the chance of being recognized. Levels could also help with certain social skills when your reputation is known. Edges and Flaws could modify your level for the purpose of reputation. Your level would probably represent your professional rating (how about having level 3 guards guarding a place? One of them could be level 5. Maybe Lone Star has mostly level 2-4 employees. You might have to be at least level 6 to be a Red Samurai (would be kinda like a prestige class that would give you backing and other benefits).

If you like Earthdawn's system, you could do something similar. For example, to attain level 6, a character would need at least one skill at level 6 and 2 at level 4, to attain level 10, a character would need at least one skill at level 10, one at level 8, and 2 at level 2, etc.). You could go as far as dividing that into active and knowledge skills, contacts, etc. You could expect a level 10 character to have, for example, at least 10 points worth of contacts (level 1, level 2, level 3).

Levels could also be used as a way to "initiate". Magic attribute could be equal to your level +1 (or you could tweak it and start characters at level 6 and say magic equals level). Characters wouldn't need to pay karma to initiate that way, they would become more proficient at magical stuff naturally. It might be unfair to mundanes though...

It would be nice to know what to expect from characters levels. What kind of runs would you expect for a level 3 character? A level 5 char? A level 10 char?

Just some thoughts... Is that what you were looking for?

Peace!

Crossfire

P.S. Anyone else besides me likes BeCKS?

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Tanka]

Yeah, that's probably about it.

Numbers are too fiddly for my tastes. BP works fine enough in almost any case.

[Kagetenshi]

I would swap "legendary" and "prime" on that chart.

~J

[Garrowolf]

Okay some people seem to still misunderstand what I am talking about. I am NOT talking about using the d20 mechanics. There will be NO HPs. It would use the same mechanics as SR4 for the most part.

A Class/Level system is about the character creation. It doesn't have to be about the HPs. I hate Hit Points myself.

It isn't about having a limited number of build points. Each level would probably have a limited number but that is just because of progression.

This isn't to find an answer to a problem so much as an experiment. I am trying to see if it can be done. I am also trying to see if I can use it to create characters that make more sense to me.

In some ways I think that class based systems can be used to make more logical characters. They make sure that you don't create totally useless characters. They also show that there is progression to things. BP systems are so open ended that you can easily create both overly powerful and gimped characters at the same time. A new player, or a player new to a specific style for a game, can more easily create a character with a class and levels then without. You can condense more rules and such into the class structure instead of lots of notes about things like initiation progression.

It also means that I can stop players from creating characters that I find imbalanced and not get into arguments because they are fighting me about it.

That is if this works.

I guess part of the reason for this is that I don't see any game system as a whole. I see it as a package deal with standard parts and a few new ideas. Each part is a way of dealing with certain problems and they are mostly interchangable. Some ways are better at dealing with certain styles then others. They favor certain things.

For instance in a high tech modern setting it is more necessary to deliniate time accurately. Things are measured in small units because we have such rapid weapons. In a fantasy setting I think it is better to have slower chunks of time and a more fluid action system. It should have more of a give and take to it.

When I created a fantasy game partially out of SR4 I dropped the specific time contraints and used a fluid system based on cascading dice pool. Each action after the first lost a dice. This included your defenses until your next turn. Once you ran out of dice then that was it. You had no more dice. You had to decide each turn if you were going to go all out or hold back to defend later. Movement ate dice as well. Wielding a weapon too heavy or unfamiliar would eat extra dice as well.

It was simple to use and very fluid. It worked great. It wouldn't work in a modern or future setting though.

So no more about HPs. That isn't a factor.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[eidolon]

[Tanka]

[eidolon]

Well then I'd disagree with them, obviously. It wasn't an argument so much as my observations/opinions.

[Tanka]

Just sayin'. To each their own. Some like d20 for its universality, some don't.

[hyzmarca]

A class-level based system sort of defeats the purpose of a point-buy based system. The two are generally incompatible.

If you are concerned about class-levels then it would be better to pregen stats for your players and let them choose between your pregened skeletons.

[Garrowolf]

Crossfire, Yes! This is the kind of thing I was thinking. I am debating on if I want the system to be 15 levels or 20. I am leaning towards 15 because most of the time that character has become too powerful to play. So this would make it 1-5 as low level. 6-10 as moderate standard levels, and 11-15 as high levels.

Looking at the skill ratings I was thinking about 3 for the skill max for low, 5 for the max for moderate, and 7 the max for high. I was also trying to figure out a class / cross class type of thing. With the skill groups it would be easy. I could just say that combat group and stealth are class and then the rest are non class. I'm not sure of how to do the skill max for non class skills. Maybe have it as skill max of 2 for low, 3 for moderate and 4 for high. Not sure yet.

I was looking at the Becks thing and I like it. I will probably use it to keep the skill ranks lower and more realistic. I had a thought that maybe I would break it up into groups. Maybe have a certain number of points that go to class skills, a certain number that go to non class skills and a certain number that go to Knowledges so that characters develop across the board and not all in one area.

I want to start characters off with a set of attribute points from the beginning. No rolls. It would be on the lower end though and not too powerful. Maybe a little above average. Then have bonuses to certain attributes based on what that class favors. Still working on this idea.

Another idea I had would be to cover some of the equipment and extra attribute points and such. Have the ability to take a level to gain more points for this stuff. Basically it would give you wiggle room in a class system. This would fit in with advantages and disadvantages and such. I was also thinking about some package deals for cyberware and such that would also use up a level.

Any feedback on this?

[Garrowolf]

Another idea I just had is that I could allow the players to choose a certain number of skills to become class skills for them. Maybe have this as a part of the level system. As you go up you can include a few more skills as class skills.

[eidolon]

[Fezig]

For me there is sort of a basic line. I play D&D for its epic fantasy where I can charge in wielding a big sword and not worrying about the town guard. The fact is for the most part the D20 system is built for epic heroes, even d20 modern pretty much fully lacked grit. The D20 system is made for one type of game, and the SR system is built around another. SR doesn't make for as good of a medieval slash and hack game where you can wade into 50 goblins and come out holding 50 heads, its made so that some mook Ork ganger can step out from behind a garbage can and grease you right on the street.

As for the level and class systems, I sort of see the same point. A lack of a class system to me is one of the major benefits of the SR system. I like the fact that no matter what my specialty is I can be serviceable at just about anything else. I always find myself looking for loopholes and pulling odd stunts in D&D to make my characters useful in more situation (same in d20 modern to for all its worth). As for the level system, the one posted above as a level to karma table is pretty much all you should have in SR, otherwise its a different set of ideas. I guess what I mean to say is that what your trying to do sounds like more trouble than its worth. You can probably go out and find another system that better suits the needs you list, much as I had to find SR when I found d20 modern severely lacking for my purposes.

[Wounded Ronin]

So, the OP just doesn't like characters who are very good in some areas but poor in others, and would rather use character classes so that it's impossible for a newb to make a poor character?

All he has to do is use the pregenerated starting characters. That's all you need. No need to think of an extra level-type framework. That's just more static and noise. There's a reason that the pregens in all the editions of SR were slightly crappy and not uber.