loading ammo termonology 101 - Dumpshock Forums

loading ammo termonology 101, clips and mags.

Platinum View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 02:37 PM Post #1
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115	a nice little tutorial video that explains clips and mags. (I kept using the wrong term) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzmVJ1rXD9U

HullBreach View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 06:21 PM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Holiday Florida Member No.: 9,055	I used to get called a nomenclature nazi for yelling at people about this all the time. Good resource though!

bibliophile20 View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 07:03 PM Post #3
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737	That's very interesting. I'll have to keep that in mind.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 07:35 PM Post #4
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	I walk a middle ground. I know the difference, I just don't care. I don't care enough to go on a campaign trying to educate everyone I speak to about guns. If I want to be understood, I'll use the term that I expect the person to understand. If I think they'd actually care to know, I might explain the difference, but only if I think they'd really appreciate the edification.

TheOneRonin View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 07:42 PM Post #5
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729	I wouldn't stoop to calling a desktop PC a "modem" just so the person on the phone knows what I'm talking about. If they have half a brain, they would rather be correct in their terminology than continue to use the wrong word for what they are talking about. If they are too dumb to care, or so stubborn that they take offense at being corrected, they cease to count as regular human beings in my book. I have no sympathy for someone who wishes to remain ignorant because they can't handle being corrected. Besides, I think it takes a bigger person to kindly offer to correct someone's incorrect terminology than it does to snicker behind their back because they said "modem" when they meant "desktop". FYI, I'm prior service Army, and I currently work in the computer field, so I regularly deal with people who use incorrect terminology. Some get offended when I correct them. Most don't.

Herald of Verjig...

Mar 21 2007, 08:44 PM

Post #6

Runner

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QUOTE (TheOneRonin)

I wouldn't stoop to calling a desktop PC a "modem" just so the person on the phone knows what I'm talking about.

Now that's a faulty comparison. The difference between clips and magazines is far closer to the difference between a cable modem and DSL. Different ways of doing primarily the same thing.

A proper match for the modem/PC error is referring to a rifle as a "removable box magazine."

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 09:21 PM Post #7
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	HoV: I disagree entirely. A desktop PC both modulates and demodulates. It is, therefore, a mod/dem—it's just that calling it that is misleading, since that's a very small subset of its functionality (and usually just a side effect of its desired function). ~J

nezumi View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 09:41 PM Post #8
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	And a rifle is in fact removable and does hold one or more bullets :P I wonder how many other forums get sidetracked by discussing how appropriate a metaphor is.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 09:46 PM Post #9
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Removable from what? Rifles don't go in things. Things can be designed for them to to be put in, but that's different. ~J

Herald of Verjig...

Mar 21 2007, 10:30 PM

Post #10

Runner

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 21 2007, 04:46 PM)

Removable from what? Rifles don't go in things.

They do once you affix bayonets. (well, the bayonete is intended to go in things...)

Crakkerjakk View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 11:36 PM Post #11
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756	The difference between the two only matters to gun nuts, IMO. I don't bother correcting normal folks, since I doubt they care and according to popular usage "clips" is interchangable with "mags," however wrong that is. If a fellow Marine called one of his mags a clip, however, I'd probably give him the "Are you effing retarded?" look. I only correct folks who might be interested in actually knowing the correct usages of the two words, in other words. People I go shooting with? Correct improper usage of shooting terminology. Friends of friends that are obviously civilians and think that everyone who owns a firearm is slightly nuts? I let em keep being wrong. They don't care, they won't remember if I correct em, and it'll just piss me off when they forget the proper term later. Kind of like the difference between a "boat" and a "ship" or a "gun" and a "rifle" or "weapon." Only really matters to those who deal with them frequently.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 11:44 PM Post #12
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Not true! I don't deal with these things frequently at all, and they bother me a great deal! ;) ~J

Slump View Member Profile	Mar 21 2007, 11:47 PM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492	I want a rifle, preferably in pistol size, -- smoothbore really doesn't do much for my groupings. :grinbig: Sometimes the terminology is actually an impediment to understanding, unless you use it in the 'common use.' When I say 'clip,' it's a fair bet I'm refering to something that you jam into a gun to provide the gun with bullets. When I say 'magazine,' it's a fair bet I'm refering to a periodical publication with a glossy cover.

Wounded Ronin

Mar 22 2007, 04:24 AM

Post #14

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (HullBreach)

I used to get called a nomenclature nazi for yelling at people about this all the time. Good resource though!

I think it's important to correct terminology. Nothing makes me gnash my teeth as much as people referring to magazines as clips.

TheOneRonin View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 12:31 PM Post #15
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729	This discussion begs the question: If, in casual conversation, you incorrectly use a bit of terminology, specific to a field in which you are not an expert, and someone corrects you, how do you handle it? My guess is, most of the people on this board would rather know the correct terminology to use in conversation than rather go on using a word/phrase incorrectly and looking like an idiot in front of those who know better. I'd rather be humble and right than proud and wrong.

TheOneRonin

Mar 22 2007, 12:35 PM

Post #16

Running Target

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (HullBreach @ Mar 21 2007, 01:21 PM)

I used to get called a nomenclature nazi for yelling at people about this all the time. Good resource though!

I think it's important to correct terminology. Nothing makes me gnash my teeth as much as people referring to magazines as clips.

I can handle civilians making that mistake, as long as they don't get all pissy when they get corrected. Or worse, if they continue to use the term incorrectly after you've corrected them.

The best response I ever got after correcting someone on the clip/magazine issue was:

"Oh yeah? What makes you think you know everything?"

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 12:47 PM Post #17
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Search for the terms "hacker" and "cracker" together and you'll discover that fewer people here care about using the correct word than you'd think. Also, in a spot of irony, it doesn't "beg the question" (although I'm in favour of eliminating the special meaning of "begging the question", as it's a horribly poor translation). ~J

TheOneRonin

Mar 22 2007, 01:00 PM

Post #18

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Also, in a spot of irony, it doesn't "beg the question" (although I'm in favour of eliminating the special meaning of "begging the question", as it's a horribly poor translation).

~J

Here's a perfect example of what I was talking about. Based on Kage's comment, I looked up the phrase "beg the question". Looks like I've been using that phrase incorrectly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

I could get all upset and defensive, or I could say, 'Well, you KNOW what I meant.' But the bottom line is I used a word/phrase/terminology incorrectly. Now I know better.

As I stated earlier, I'd rather be humble and correct, than proud and wrong.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 02:19 PM Post #19
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Oh man, that "begging the question" thing is going to be tough to relearn. Could somebody explain why the M1's loading device is a clip and not a magazine? It's at about 3:00 in the video. It's a little box that holds the rounds. The box is then inserted into the gun, in it's entirety. When you're finished with it, the little box is ejected along with any rounds still in it. So how is that not a magazine?

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 02:31 PM Post #20
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	The M1 Garand en bloc clip is hardly a box, the sides of the clip are just slightly extended. The rifle has a fixed internal magazine from which the rounds are fed into the chamber; the en bloc clip, like all clips, is just a device that aids inserting rounds into the magazine.

TheOneRonin

Mar 22 2007, 02:44 PM

Post #21

Running Target

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Oh man, that "begging the question" thing is going to be tough to relearn.

If it makes you feel any better, here's what the wiki has to say on that:

"Modern usage"

More recently, "begs the question" has been used as a synonym for "invites the question" or "raises the question," or to indicate that "the question ought to be addressed." In this usage, "the question" is stated in the next phrase. For example: "This year's budget deficit is half a trillion dollars. This begs the question: how are we ever going to balance the budget?" Argument over whether this usage should be considered incorrect is an example of the debate between linguistic prescription and description.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 02:47 PM Post #22
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	edit: This is in response to Austere Emancipator, in case that isn't obvious. I still don't really see the difference. Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about, I think that's been made abundantly clear from the question, but I promise I'm not being deliberately obtuse. At least not yet. ;-) Here's what I see: With the other clips I see a device with rounds, and the device aids in inserting the rounds into the weapon, leaving the device behind. With all their other examples of magazines I see a device with rounds which enters the weapon, and later pops back out. The Garand's operation obviously fits into the second category. Does it not qualify as a magazine because it doesn't wrap all the way around the rounds? That seems awfully arbitrary. Is the magazine some third area inside the gun between the clip and the chamber where the rounds hang out for a while? It looks to me as though the rounds are going straight from the clip to the chamber. After going through one round he ejects the clip and they're all still in there, they haven't been transferred into some other storage area inside the weapon. I'm guessing it's some kind of fundamental difference in the interior workings of the weapon, but I'm not seeing it. edit: TheOneRonin: Yeah, I saw that, but now I'm probably just going to avoid the whole argument and not use the term at all. I just won't try to correct other people on it, since it does sound like it's on the border of being redefined.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 02:53 PM Post #23
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Can you put multiple rounds into the M1 Garand's magazine (not directly into the chamber) without using the clip at all? Is that the difference, that it's optional?

Lindt View Member Profile	Mar 22 2007, 02:59 PM Post #24
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	Well I feel as thought I have had my moment of education for the day. Clips feed magazines.

Austere Emancipa...

Mar 22 2007, 03:09 PM

Post #25

Great Dragon

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I'm not sure I'm the right man for this job since I'm not a native English speaker and thus cannot prescribe the use of that language, but I'll try...

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

With the other clips I see a device with rounds, and the device aids in inserting the rounds into the weapon, leaving the device behind.

That's a specific kind of clip, a stripper clip.That the object itself never enters the magazine and is not in contact with the weapon when it fires are not part of the definition of a clip. The Garand clip belongs to the sub-group of en bloc clips, which are directly inserted into the magazine of the weapon.

As far as I know, a magazine does not have to fully enclose the rounds -- that was just a comment on your use of the word "box" to describe the Garand clip.

A magazine in this context is a separate device or integral part of the weapon which holds the cartridges prior to them being fired and from which they are directly fed into the chamber. For the M1 Garand rifle, this is the depression undernearth the bolt. The only difference to the internal magazine of other rifles of the era which were fed with stripper clips is that the clip holding the cartridges together goes into the magazine as well. This doesn't change the terminology (other than "stripper clip" vs. "en bloc clip", obviously).

I actually have no idea whether the weapon would feed correctly if you inserted separate cartridges into the magazine without a clip, but you definitely can put the separate cartridges there.

Another kind of clip which might make this clearer is the moon/half-moon clip for revolvers. It, too, is inserted into the weapon with the cartridges and is only ejected when the cases themselves are ejected -- but the moon clip is clearly not a magazine, or a cylinder, or part of the chamber. It is, just like the definition of a clip goes, a device for holding the cartridges together.

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