 Military Contractors, The First Step To Corp SecGuards? |
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 Mar 24 2007, 09:28 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-November 05 Member No.: 7,941  |
DISCLAIMER: This is not a knock or endorsement of. Just a curiousity question.
With that out of the way, what do you think? A large corporation, like Blackwater, with contractors numbering in the thousands upon thousands able to be placed anywhere on the map and work in tangent with or against regular law enforcement/military personnel. Geared with on par if not better equipment than most and answerable to the corporation itself. Now transfer that to the world of Shadowrun and the year 2070. You have personal corp security, chromed out and armed with the latest and greatest above and beyond LoneStar and the others. Now...thoughts? Opinions? And if you had such a group in your game, what would the team of contractors consist of? |
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Mar 24 2007, 10:31 AM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's already a basic assumption of the SR setting.
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Mar 24 2007, 02:17 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
But yes, I think Blackwater is where it started. ;)
And Blackwater is already better equipped than the military - any number of interviews with soldiers fighting beside Blackwater mercs say things like "You're sitting there in substandard body armor, because no one ordered more, making 35k a year, and the guy next to you is fully geared, making 6 figures or more." It's an easy choice, to me. If you're going to fight, fight on the side of the group that gets income based on results, pays 10x the salary, and can afford the good stuff. |
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Mar 24 2007, 03:30 PM
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#4
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and that the government that hired it can write of as a independent contractor acting on its own initiative when they do something stupid like kill civilians...
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Mar 24 2007, 04:03 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
And if you do manage to do something stupid you're subject to civilian court procedures rather than the uniform code of military justice which allows for less in the way of defendant's rights.
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Mar 24 2007, 04:11 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,382 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Shadowland Member No.: 8,297 |
Which one allows less? BTW - Blackwater scares me. [edit]The concept of people having lots and lots guns does not scare me - I grew up in the South and firmly believe in the Second Amendment [US Constitution]. Not to mention that most poeple have more rifles in their home than people old enought to fire them. It just scares me that a corporation is taking on the role of the military and has more firepower than some countries.[/edit] This post has been edited by Alex: Mar 24 2007, 04:47 PM |
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Mar 24 2007, 04:36 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I get the impression that the uniform code of military justice has less protections of defendant's rights.
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Mar 24 2007, 04:52 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
The UCMJ definitely gives the defendant less rights then an American court, but not all civilian courts give defendants as many rights as an American or European court. By the way when you are comparing equipment of Blackwater to the equipment of a soldier make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Last I checked Blackwater doesn't deploy tanks or attack helicopters. Sure you won't see one of their guys without body armor, but the average blackwater guy is a former spec ops type. IRL you never see the spec ops guys underfunded when it comes to equipment. The soldiers without body armor are usually one of two types rear echelon types (those so far removed from a combat arms job) who are not likely to need it, or a Reservist or National Guard (which is unfortuanate).
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Mar 24 2007, 05:28 PM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
but then one can ask how effective tanks and helicopters will be in a world where less and less of the fighting happens with a clear front line and two matched national forces against each other.
"police" actions will be the norm rather then the exception, and for that use blackwater and similar will be near perfect for the job. didnt they (for a while) get police like authority in new orleans after the flood? edit: just recalled that while they dont have tanks, i have seen photos of armored SUVs... and if they need air cover, grab a civilian copter and bolt som machine guns on it, huey style ;) |
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Mar 24 2007, 07:01 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Please give examples of the differences in where the defendant in the military court would have less justice than in the civilian court, and to be specific, US only. I'm curious why you say that. |
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Mar 24 2007, 07:03 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Apparently Blackwater does have some helicopters.
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2...00732105017.asp |
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Mar 24 2007, 07:05 PM
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#12
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
mercs ain't nothing new, from german mercenaries in the American Revolution, to
Executive Outcomes' suppression of a revolution in Sierra Leon, to blackwater in Iraq, people have been wielding arms for a Great Deal of Money, for a long time, and will for probably ever. |
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Mar 24 2007, 07:18 PM
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#13
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Yeah, but it's our money! If you're a UK or USA citizen and you pay taxes, then it's your earnings that are paying the wages. Actually, considering that the occupation of Iraq is being funded by massive borrowing, those of you who don't pay taxes yet, will still probably be paying for it by the time you start. :( |
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Mar 24 2007, 07:19 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Executive Outcomes was absolutely massive for a while. It was capable of fielding an entire battalion back in its heyday. Private Security Corporations (PSCs) are big money in the world right now and their use is growing. They are actually part of the problem in Africa right now. International aid organizations, such as the IMF, World Bank, and UN try to foster transparency and responsible fiscal spending in African countries. As part of a country's financial restructuring after receiving money they usually stipulate how much the country's defense budget can be. Say 2M. The country's leaders then turn around and decide that they can't keep control of the country with that little spending. They then embezzle a big chunk of the aid funds (often spending up to 12 M instead of the 2 they were supposed to) and use that to hire PSCs. The PSCs prop up the un-democratic regime, suppress the rebels (somewhat) but never enough to actually stop the rebellion, and the cycle continues. A large part of the issue in Nigeria right now is the pressure of aggressive conversion mixed with exploitation by oil companies. It is not unknown for corporate troops to march into towns in the oil fields and displace the entire population so that rigs can be set up. The displaced people either move to the city where they turn to crime and poverty or else head for the bush and become rebels perpetuating the problem. Meanwhile, no one is farming in any of these countries, because the African nations have to abide by WTO standards so their crops are cheap and there are rebels roaming the countryside stealling what food is produced to feed their troops. The people in the city further fall into poverty as they are forced to import food at higher prices because Western countries use quotas and subsidies to keep their failing agricultural sectors functioning. Again perpetuating the cycle of violence. We already live in the world of Shadowrun. We just live in the plush corporate world of SR, not the gritty part of it. |
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Mar 24 2007, 07:40 PM
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#15
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, want grit? just wait for a economic collapse of some kind...
and if anyone is wondering, here is the birdie talked about in the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-6 hmm, assault rifles with c-mags, should make for nice crowd/insurgent suppression i guess :) |
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Mar 24 2007, 11:19 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
Just off the top of my head, and I'm not a lawyer. In a civilian court in the US a jury consists of random people selected for jury duty. They could come from any walk of life, income range, or class. However in a military court martial the "jury" consists of only officers. Who are by nature less sympathetic to the accused. Additionally I am under the impression that there is no Voir Dire process included in the UCMJ. |
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Mar 24 2007, 11:31 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
No. For enlisteds, the board can consist of up to 1/3 enlisted of equal or higher rank. For officers, the board is all officers of equal or higher rank. (This is one reason why you never see generals court-martialed...At flag ranks, everybody of equal or higher rank knows everybody, so an impartial jury is basically impossible.)
There is a voir dire process, and it's in fact quite similar to civilian court-martials. |
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Mar 24 2007, 11:46 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
unless i'm mistaken, a soldier under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ doesn't get to hire a lawyer--he is assigned one, and that's that. so you couldn't get Johnny Cochrane to rise from the dead and get you off on a technicality. my impression, though i'll freely admit that i've got no factual basis i can point to, is that technicalities count for a lot less under the UCMJ. the applicable laws are simpler and less confusing.
to an extent. in SR, that sort of thing is much more widespread; the third world has invaded much of the first. |
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Mar 24 2007, 11:53 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Actually...Yes, you -can- hire a civilian lawyer...Though those that specialize in mil law are expensive, and you hire at your own expense.
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Mar 25 2007, 12:01 AM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, while SR may be over the top sometimes, it is quite an utopia. |
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Mar 25 2007, 12:24 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 14-May 05 Member No.: 7,393 |
I've had the pleasure of meeting a few Blackwater guys. One of which was my good friends father (retired Grunt, and i have a buddy going through the BW school now). My friends father tells me that they take more collateral damage than the Marines out in the field. I dont want to go into details about what they do. But there is a reason why they get paid allot more than me and my buddies in the Corps. And they also fall under the UCMJ now,... which IMO i dont think they should.
I'm not to afraid of Blackwater (a corp) most of these guys are so die hard American they go merc AFTER 20 years of service. Crazy Crazy people, but the dollar dont mean that much to them to turn(they dont have nukes yet .... ???). |
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Mar 25 2007, 12:37 AM
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#22
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
its not the corps them selfs thats worrying, the "plausible deniability" factor...
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Mar 25 2007, 01:06 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 14-May 05 Member No.: 7,393 |
Well as of right now it hasn't come of that. Everyone has "heard" stories, I was over there twice and have seen "stories". But the UCMJ is no joke. And they fall under that. You get "legal representation" supplied by the Gov. (aka your Joint Law Office on base), and NO Civilian lawyer that doesnt just want your money does military courts, too many more laws to learn, and most of them stupid (like swearing in a government building). The way the Marine Corps. is going now is toward "more grunts, less support" meaning my job is out(32k a year, and i get a rifle) and they pay a Civ more cash and he sits there with gear. So Blackwater might actually be out of a job soon, or at least use them for special missions like, holding a small village. Also depends on what Iran and other nations feel like doing. Imagine if Kim Jong Il nukes Mecca... crazy little bastard wants to make something glow in the dark, and he's not liking them to much over there. |
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Mar 25 2007, 01:21 AM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I'd rather not - because that would mean the ability to send working nukes halfway across the globe. |
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Mar 25 2007, 01:35 AM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, he already can. not in a missile, maybe, but it wouldn't be hard to sneak one in disguised as a shipping unit full of batteries or somesuch. assuming he can refine the material, which... yeah, he probably can. he'd probably have a long list of targets to hit before he gets around to Mecca, though. |
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