Which one allows less?

BTW - Blackwater scares me.

[edit]The concept of people having lots and lots guns does not scare me - I grew up in the South and firmly believe in the Second Amendment [US Constitution]. Not to mention that most poeple have more rifles in their home than people old enought to fire them. It just scares me that a corporation is taking on the role of the military and has more firepower than some countries.[/edit]

Please give examples of the differences in where the defendant in the military court would have less justice than in the civilian court, and to be specific, US only. I'm curious why you say that.

Yeah, but it's our money! If you're a UK or USA citizen and you pay taxes, then it's your earnings that are paying the wages.

Actually, considering that the occupation of Iraq is being funded by massive borrowing, those of you who don't pay taxes yet, will still probably be paying for it by the time you start.

Executive Outcomes was absolutely massive for a while. It was capable of fielding an entire battalion back in its heyday.

Private Security Corporations (PSCs) are big money in the world right now and their use is growing. They are actually part of the problem in Africa right now. International aid organizations, such as the IMF, World Bank, and UN try to foster transparency and responsible fiscal spending in African countries. As part of a country's financial restructuring after receiving money they usually stipulate how much the country's defense budget can be. Say 2M.

The country's leaders then turn around and decide that they can't keep control of the country with that little spending. They then embezzle a big chunk of the aid funds (often spending up to 12 M instead of the 2 they were supposed to) and use that to hire PSCs. The PSCs prop up the un-democratic regime, suppress the rebels (somewhat) but never enough to actually stop the rebellion, and the cycle continues.

A large part of the issue in Nigeria right now is the pressure of aggressive conversion mixed with exploitation by oil companies. It is not unknown for corporate troops to march into towns in the oil fields and displace the entire population so that rigs can be set up. The displaced people either move to the city where they turn to crime and poverty or else head for the bush and become rebels perpetuating the problem.

Meanwhile, no one is farming in any of these countries, because the African nations have to abide by WTO standards so their crops are cheap and there are rebels roaming the countryside stealling what food is produced to feed their troops. The people in the city further fall into poverty as they are forced to import food at higher prices because Western countries use quotas and subsidies to keep their failing agricultural sectors functioning. Again perpetuating the cycle of violence.

We already live in the world of Shadowrun. We just live in the plush corporate world of SR, not the gritty part of it.

Just off the top of my head, and I'm not a lawyer. In a civilian court in the US a jury consists of random people selected for jury duty. They could come from any walk of life, income range, or class. However in a military court martial the "jury" consists of only officers. Who are by nature less sympathetic to the accused. Additionally I am under the impression that there is no Voir Dire process included in the UCMJ.

to an extent. in SR, that sort of thing is much more widespread; the third world has invaded much of the first.

Actually, while SR may be over the top sometimes, it is quite an utopia.

Well as of right now it hasn't come of that. Everyone has "heard" stories, I was over there twice and have seen "stories". But the UCMJ is no joke. And they fall under that. You get "legal representation" supplied by the Gov. (aka your Joint Law Office on base), and NO Civilian lawyer that doesnt just want your money does military courts, too many more laws to learn, and most of them stupid (like swearing in a government building).

The way the Marine Corps. is going now is toward "more grunts, less support" meaning my job is out(32k a year, and i get a rifle) and they pay a Civ more cash and he sits there with gear. So Blackwater might actually be out of a job soon, or at least use them for special missions like, holding a small village. Also depends on what Iran and other nations feel like doing.


Imagine if Kim Jong Il nukes Mecca... crazy little bastard wants to make something glow in the dark, and he's not liking them to much over there.

I'd rather not - because that would mean the ability to send working nukes halfway across the globe.

eh, he already can. not in a missile, maybe, but it wouldn't be hard to sneak one in disguised as a shipping unit full of batteries or somesuch. assuming he can refine the material, which... yeah, he probably can. he'd probably have a long list of targets to hit before he gets around to Mecca, though.

And if violence wasn't my last resort, than I didn't resort to enough of it. Also, remember, when facing hired mercenaries, that there is not such thing as "Overkill." There is only "Open Fire!" and "Time to reload."

I don't think it would matter whether they fell under UCMJ or not. If the country decides it wants to be pissed at the US for the way its soldiers are actng probably depends on how its people are feeling.

The marine who raped the Phillipino girl is undergoing trial in the Phillipines I believe, and the Phillipines haven't exactly gone to war or cut off diplomatic ties. The people are pissed but only because it wasn't one of their own that did the crime. Easier to be upset when it is a foreigner.

Contrast that to the case of Abu Ghraib and other incidents in Iraq. The Iraqi government can't and won't do anything about it but you can bet that it has galvanized the opposition forces.

Holding a foreign government responsible for something and trying to make it liable is basically tantamount to war. That's not a step to be taken lightly unless you are really spoiling for it.

Doing so usually tends to make customs officer a bit nervous when their geiger counter goes berserk.

man i really do have a problem for getting things down on paper.

didnt plausible deniability enter the modern dictionary because CIA was working via go betweens to fund uprisings in nations the current US leadership didnt like?

as in, can the sitting president or someone else, when blackwater personnel mess up, sweep it under the rug as a civilian matter, not a national one? and how many voters will buy that?

as in, creating a mental moat between the national leadership and the actions...

That's been changed recently, I believe.

PSCs in the field alongside US forces are now subject to the UCMJ in full.

Which is insane. And they are not in the field with US forces, they are carrying out clearly defined protective missions. What is their chain of command if they are hired by the State Department and assigned to protect the Chief of mission (a state department officer)? This makes the first person who can issue orders that impact everyone involved the president of the United States. And interestingly enough, the UCMJ doesn't cover state department employees. Not to mention that the last time someone tried a civilian under the UCMJ it was overturned by the SCOTUS as unconstitutional.

hmm, so they are. prior to the recent change, UCMJ only applied to civilian contractors in time of war (which i didn't know); now, it's basically anytime they're doing anything--a "contingency operation" is really broad wording that could be applied to almost anything. makes sense, in a way--declaring war is unseemly, so we don't do it anymore, but we still have to keep a rope on non-military personnel who may be running around taking advantage of the situation. it'd be better if we had the integrity to declare war in situations where substantial military force were required, and not commit substantial forces in situations we don't want to declare war over. that way, military contractors would fall under UCMJ in most conflicts.

You should hear the stories chummers...

Declaring war in this day and age is not the smartest thing to do, with the end to the Cold War there are a lot of complex sphere's of influence going on which can cause serious impact on the nations involved. ( Its also the main protection for all the major players.)

With some of the questionable choices in conflicts its becoming harder to have the cause for war and the fact that there are non-national entities involved makes it much more difficult to wage conventional warfare. ( For example Russian's anti-terrorism rumblings with former USSR states.)

As for contractors, their still tied to the sponsoring state which makes them not so deniable.

Private intelligence contracting is more of a significant worry as there isn't a clear picture on the activity going on and its difficult to account for their use.

er. I guess it's just an assumption made by the media that they can afford better gear, they must go out and buy it.

Executive Outcomes.

what was impressive about EO was that they did what the 11k UN peacekeepers could not: keep a lid on the growing rebellion and civil war. and they did it with a lot less than 11k troops.Only several hundred in fact.

The thing of it is, disregarding that crazy canuck with his Halo Armor, body armor only comes in certain levels of effectiveness, as do rifles. There isn't really any gear out there to buy that the military doesn't already have.

The real difference in many cases is the lack of beaurocratic control. The UN is one of the least effective 'controlling organizations' out there, simply because they are trying to make 100 different soveriegn nations happy all the time. EO only has to make their paying employer happy, and there is still an element of deniability involved. That is EO and Blackwater can get away with doing things that are practical that official soldiers would be severely reprimanded for trying.

Remind me to share some of my anecdotes re: Iraq with you some time for why 150k troops 'aren't enough'...

Executive Operations is the name of the merc group in Mercenaries for PS2/Xbox

The miracle breakthrough armors (like dragonskin) all seem to have a lot more sizzle than steak when you look into them. They have loads of testimonials and demos, but no reports from reputable labs attesting to the accuracy of their claims or NIJ certification that shows they can offer the protection they claim.

It is courts-martial. Court(s) is the noun, martial is an adjective that modifies it. There are no such thing as civilian courts-martial; the two adjectives are mutually contradictory. Civilians simply have courts.



The biggest issue with the UCMJ is that many trivial things that would be Constitutionally protected outside of the military are crimes under the UCMJ. If you're a civilian janitor who decides to sleep in late instead of getting up to mop the floors at 4AM one day, the worst that can happen to you is that you get fired. If you are a janitor who is subject to the UCMJ and do the same the worst that can happen is that you are imprisoned for six months.
This, of course, is an abridgment against one of the more recent but more important Constitutional Protections, the one prohibiting slavery and indentured servitude.

It's level III certified, apparently. Assuming (pending on the results of NIJ level IV testing) they can hang with ESAPI plates, that's ~30% more coverage at the same weight, or the same coverage at ~0.8x the weight. Which is not bad, but the only real claim to fame is still the flexibility.

I wonder where they got the mythical "level V" protection referred to on their site? I love the "classified" velocities for those, when the exact specifications of the cartridges in question, possibly apart from the details of the WC penetrator's design, and their performance out of standard US military small arms is public knowledge.

It was indeed. London was a fairly serious global centre for private military companies operating in the developing world, mostly in Africa and South America IIRC, before the 2003 Invasion of Iraq and mass drafting in of PMCs like Blackwater situation made people much more aware of the industry and lead to its rapid expansion over in the US as well.