 mindprobe unconscious persons |
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 Mar 25 2007, 10:36 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 20-February 04 From: in the matrix Member No.: 6,091  |
Here is something that came up during out latest game session. Our mage would knock out a bad guy. While unconscious (the bad guy), the mage would mind probe him. This is wrong... but I can not find anything that says he can not do that.
am I missing anything? dog |
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Mar 25 2007, 10:39 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861 |
Nope. In fact, this is probably one of the major reasons people hate and fear mages.
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Mar 25 2007, 10:56 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Well the target will still resist with Willpower, and if the caster cannot 3 net hits or more, the caster will only learn about the target's dreams (if even that? Are subconcious dreams surface thoughts?).
The big advantage is that the target will probably not be aware of being mind probed, as he's generally unaware of everything. |
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Mar 26 2007, 12:12 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
Good points, especially the bit about dreams. You can't ask specific questions of a sleeping man and see the answers in their minds. My teams would handle this by roughing up the guard (stun damage) or using a Reduce Willpower spell (when the team had two mages), to lower the target's ability to resist. Then the MindProbe would be used and would have much greater odds of success. Sure the target knew they were being probed, but they would be kept under wraps until the run was completed, then released. It did help to take the target down in such a way as they never saw their attackers. Mage masks work just as well for keeping mundanes from noticing too much about the team as they do keeping mages down. |
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Mar 26 2007, 01:24 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
One of the street drugs reduce the willpower as the drug wears off. I had a character who used this on several occasions.
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Mar 26 2007, 08:39 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
:vegm: |
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Mar 26 2007, 10:49 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Should a Mind Probe used via Ritual Sorcery on an unconscious person wake the target?
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Mar 26 2007, 11:40 AM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I see no reason why mind probe shouldn't be used on an unconscious person. It gives the GM the opportunity to couch any information the PCs discover in terms of metaphor and dream logic.
Ditto for remote mind probe of unconscious/sleeping persons by ritual magic. This is a good reason to sleep inside a warded area if at all possible :) |
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Mar 26 2007, 01:54 PM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
One thing that I have always done with regard to mind probe is that a sleeping/unconscious target has no conscious thoughts. So in order for a mage to get any useful information from an unconscious target, the mage must achieve enough successes to reach the subconscious. Therefore, "surface thoughts" and "conscious thoughts" levels of success are useless.
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Mar 26 2007, 02:02 PM
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#10
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Harlequin Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 331 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 861 |
You know what's really scary? Two mages that together have the spells: Influence, Mind Probe and Alter Memory...
I had that once when I GM:ed, they where nearly unstoppable. |
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Mar 26 2007, 02:57 PM
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#11
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...seen this too easily abused and used as an excuse for avoiding good legwork/research on the characters' part. If the subject is unconscious, I basically give them mental static, kind of like you are quickly flipping though radio stations on the dial but can't lock onto any single one to get anything coherent.
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Mar 28 2007, 12:41 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
Yeah, it's so much easier to just start shooting the person in the knees and asking questions rather than using a spell.
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Mar 28 2007, 01:33 AM
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#13
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...better roleplay through intimidation...
'sides, kneecapping usually can have more direct consequences down the road. |
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Mar 28 2007, 03:05 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
How is it NOT research and legwork to use Mind Probe to gather information? It may make it harder on the GM, grasnted, it may shorten a Run, but I find it hard to believe its not research. :-) |
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Mar 28 2007, 08:14 AM
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#15
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Absolutely, no idea :D Especially since a Social Adept can do the same by talking to his contacts and possibly with greater ease too. |
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Mar 28 2007, 01:53 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I have a social adept in my group who has a little bit of combat ability and has to maintain the facade of being a kick-ass adept by using combat drugs and things. Otherwise, when NPC's hear "Oh yeah, I'm an adept, I have superhuman social powers that let me influence people really well, but it's not mind control, really." They reply: "Mind control! Burn her!" |
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Mar 28 2007, 02:49 PM
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#17
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...you had to be in some of the scenarios I ran in the past. Particularly when the caster (of course casting it at force 6) throws spell pool + skill + focus bonus at the poor schmuck who only has 3 or 4 WP to defend with, and the spell is on a fetish (or exclusive) + the caster has Aptitude in spellcasting. Reaching into the subjects deepest memories is usually routine. I may as well say, here's the layout, here's where the prototype is, here's the codes to get in, here's the guards' routine, here's the Karma, here's the nuyen, have a nice day. |
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 Mar 28 2007, 02:53 PM
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#18
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,403 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
That's why 'schmucks' don't get all that data. :D
And the people who do are usually well-protected. ;) Bye Thanee |
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Mar 28 2007, 03:14 PM
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#19
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I should clarify that my use of the term "schmuck" refers to mundane non-runner type NPCs which can include anyone from lowly bean counters and loading dock grunts to high level executives. Not every company has the resources to support a crack commando unit and/or mages to protect their butts. Cutting edge tech is not the just private realm of the AAA Megas.
I used to work in a small company which was involved in some pioneering work [no "spoiler"] that was located in a cheesy office park. We had nothing more than a rent-a-cop security guard and about a ten min response time at best from the local police. Runners especially with mages on their side, can do a hell of a lot in ten minutes. |
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Mar 28 2007, 04:21 PM
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#20
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Precisely. If all the players want to do is run around Mind Probing everyone, then I'll just start emailing my run notes complete with the money and Karma totals, and I spend my five or six hours doing something fun. |
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Mar 28 2007, 04:43 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
If the players can perform in Prime Runner fashion, let them. Every corp may not have crack commando squads but all the really lucrative jobs might be against corps that do. Just adapt and overcome, man.
That being said, if a SR developer is reading this please make Mind Probe a 10min extended test to cast. That will allow some breathing room with GM's to interrupt runners without hokieness. :-) |
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Mar 28 2007, 04:44 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Oh , and one other thing: The runners would leave their astral signature for at least a while everywhere they Mind Probe.
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Mar 28 2007, 04:51 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Lets look at this, would you trust information gained who was really really drunk, or real doped up on drugs.
Most guards won't be told what there guarding. They guard the building and the vault rooms are more heavily guarded. They won't necessary have the access code to open the vaults. Some might be told the wrong info JUST so if they talk or get mind probed the info is no good. Someone being mind probed will with out any doubt use edge to resist. |
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Mar 28 2007, 05:30 PM
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#24
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Some good points. It's a fine line between GM Asshattery and "they wouldn't know that" sometimes, though.
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Mar 28 2007, 05:50 PM
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#25
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I would even go as far as to make it a touch only rather than ranged spell where if the physical contact is broken the spell goes down.
...erasing signatures is a rather simple and quick test nowadays.
... if, as previous posts mentioned, it is done in concert with other mental manipulations such as spells that decrease willpower or influence the target in other ways, Edge isn't necessarily going to help that much. This is the usual M/O the mages in the groups I ran have done it. Also if the subject is unconscious, can he really use edge anyway since he cannot act voluntarily? |
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