Here is something that came up during out latest game session. Our mage would knock out a bad guy. While unconscious (the bad guy), the mage would mind probe him. This is wrong... but I can not find anything that says he can not do that.

am I missing anything?

dog

Nope. In fact, this is probably one of the major reasons people hate and fear mages.

Well the target will still resist with Willpower, and if the caster cannot 3 net hits or more, the caster will only learn about the target's dreams (if even that? Are subconcious dreams surface thoughts?).

The big advantage is that the target will probably not be aware of being mind probed, as he's generally unaware of everything.

One of the street drugs reduce the willpower as the drug wears off. I had a character who used this on several occasions.

Should a Mind Probe used via Ritual Sorcery on an unconscious person wake the target?

I see no reason why mind probe shouldn't be used on an unconscious person. It gives the GM the opportunity to couch any information the PCs discover in terms of metaphor and dream logic.

Ditto for remote mind probe of unconscious/sleeping persons by ritual magic. This is a good reason to sleep inside a warded area if at all possible

One thing that I have always done with regard to mind probe is that a sleeping/unconscious target has no conscious thoughts. So in order for a mage to get any useful information from an unconscious target, the mage must achieve enough successes to reach the subconscious. Therefore, "surface thoughts" and "conscious thoughts" levels of success are useless.

You know what's really scary? Two mages that together have the spells: Influence, Mind Probe and Alter Memory...

I had that once when I GM:ed, they where nearly unstoppable.

...seen this too easily abused and used as an excuse for avoiding good legwork/research on the characters' part. If the subject is unconscious, I basically give them mental static, kind of like you are quickly flipping though radio stations on the dial but can't lock onto any single one to get anything coherent.

Yeah, it's so much easier to just start shooting the person in the knees and asking questions rather than using a spell.

...better roleplay through intimidation...

'sides, kneecapping usually can have more direct consequences down the road.

That's why 'schmucks' don't get all that data.

And the people who do are usually well-protected.

Bye
Thanee

...I should clarify that my use of the term "schmuck" refers to mundane non-runner type NPCs which can include anyone from lowly bean counters and loading dock grunts to high level executives. Not every company has the resources to support a crack commando unit and/or mages to protect their butts. Cutting edge tech is not the just private realm of the AAA Megas.

I used to work in a small company which was involved in some pioneering work [no "spoiler"] that was located in a cheesy office park. We had nothing more than a rent-a-cop security guard and about a ten min response time at best from the local police. Runners especially with mages on their side, can do a hell of a lot in ten minutes.

If the players can perform in Prime Runner fashion, let them. Every corp may not have crack commando squads but all the really lucrative jobs might be against corps that do. Just adapt and overcome, man.

That being said, if a SR developer is reading this please make Mind Probe a 10min extended test to cast. That will allow some breathing room with GM's to interrupt runners without hokieness.

Oh , and one other thing: The runners would leave their astral signature for at least a while everywhere they Mind Probe.

Lets look at this, would you trust information gained who was really really drunk, or real doped up on drugs.

Most guards won't be told what there guarding. They guard the building and the vault rooms are more heavily guarded. They won't necessary have the access code to open the vaults. Some might be told the wrong info JUST so if they talk or get mind probed the info is no good.

Someone being mind probed will with out any doubt use edge to resist.

Some good points. It's a fine line between GM Asshattery and "they wouldn't know that" sometimes, though.

Well the way I see it is that it is perfectly reasonable for a sec-guard not to know detailed knowledge about Top-Secret research projects, ect...

And although a research assistant would know more details, its perfectly reasonable to rule that she wouldn't know detailed sec-guard routes, or the passcodes needed to access the said project without supervision.

Besides, given the state of security now-a-days, a memory passcode alone isn't very likely to get you where you need to go, more then likely you'd also need to spoof at least three if not four kinds of biometrics at the same time, plus whatever else security the corp uses so even with full knowledge then runners still have their work cut out for them.

Besides, I also rule that anything that alters the target's mental state, whether its drugs, sim-sense, or neg-Attribute spells makes any information gained from Mind-Probe somewhat suspect.

As for the bit about using Edge while unconscious, why not? Edge is basically a mystical Luck Stat, so why couldn't they use it while asleep or whatever? However, since I consider Sleep an altered mental state, any information woudl be suspect as well, after all, is the target really having lurid three-somes with both the head of security and the lead researcher after hours in the lab or is it just a fantasy he has?

...admittedly, this is kind of a sore spot for me after a previous SR3 campaign was ruined by the abuse of this and mental manipulation spells. I have been looking for ways to tone things down a bit short of outright banning the spell completely (which would go for the NPCs as well - basically nobody would have it).

Just an idea, and this might be a bad one, but:
What if the person being probed had some kind of a roll, just a chance, it doesn't have to be a very good chance, but a chance to read something from the caster's mind. To exploit the link the other way. That might scare people away from using it too often.

...interesting, making it sort of a two way pipeline kind of the way old Melee counterattack rule from previous editions worked.

Maybe a some kind of an opposed awareness or perception test against the caster's net hits or maybe using the level of intrusion as an inverse threshold (e.g. The deeper the caster is in, the easier it is could be to go the other way into his mind).

...fascinating....

They'd definitely think twice about probing someone if they knew there was a chance they'd be giving away their own secrets.
Heh, you could even make it easier to give up your own secrets if you've been using the spell often. You've opened that "pipeline" so often lately your secrets are just spilling out of it.

...I like that.

Should suggest it on the SR3R Astral Space, Essence, and the Awakened Thread

The subconciousness should not be underestimated. Even if the person is unconcious the mind would put up a fight to being probed deeply. Perhaps depending on how deep someone is digging, there is a chance that they can be violently expelled from the person's mind. Every combat round they spend past the surface thoughts and emotions the person gets to roll an opposed willpower against the caster and if they win, the caster is violently expelled and has to roll resist against 5S damage with body alone to represent basically being stabbed in the brain.

...I like that even better.

As a security guard I would definitely second the fact that security guards aren't told what they're guarding, they're just told to guard somewhere. I would suspect especially in the Sixth World and the existance of spells of this type that information of that sensitive material is even less widespread. Also, researchers may know where the prototype is and what the password is to get into the lab, but they sure as shit don't know what the guard's routine is, what his password is, where all the cameras are placed or any other sensitive material. They're in the dark even more than security guards are about stuff like that.

I, as the GM, would definitely make any information caused by someone who's willpower is lowered and then mindprobed while unconscious very, very susceptible to misinterpretation and plantation of false information. Lowered willpower would make them think about killing their boss, having sex with their wife's sister, dreaming about things they aren't allowed as well as more likely to be mindprobed by some asshat mage.

I like the pipeline idea. Someone who is constantly opening their mind to probe others should be more susceptible to be mindprobed themself. Have the opposing corp send out a spec ops team that captures one of the mages (sleeping, for an ironic twist) and spends the next day mindprobing them. It's only fair, right

One option for dealing with excessive mind probing would be to have the guards or whomever been given false information. If their mind gets probed, they will give up the information and believe it to be true. Whoever acts on that information can end up walking into a trap.

The idea of getting feedback is good. The spell doesn't say anything about not exposing the prober to the subjects mental and emotional state. If the subject is being interrogated, they are probably scared to death and have all kinds of horrible images dancing in the brains. The prober would be exposed to all of that as they rummaged around looking for the info they wanted. That would probably have an effect on the caster after a while.

A really nasty trick to spring, say on a glitch, would be to have the prober experience a previous "vigorous interrogation" the subject underwent with all the force of a maxxed out BTL chip, complete with physical and emotional sensations.

The idea of the mind probe becoming a two-way street is also interesting. On a glitch, the caster might end up revealing something about their purpose for wanting the information, perhaps without realizing it.

Hmm... not sure if having it work as a two way street is all that helpful, since the kinds of people that are going to be abusing this spell are also the type that have no qualms about "capping the mo'fo" immediately afterward.

I would be inclined to colour everything they learn from the point of view of the target, and for more amusement have them pickup character traits from the target; Tell the mage "you find yourself picking your nose and eating the boogers. It's kinda disgusting and yet oddly familiar..."

That level of GM asshattery usually leads to the players pissed off at the game and the GM.

If the job could have been done by one mage with the mind probe spell, then the team of PCs would not have been hired to do the job in the first place.

Sample actions to take to prevent mind probe from being the solution:
The guard all have knowsoft links, when they show up for work, they put in their knowsoft that tells them what they need to know. When they go off shift, they take out the knowsoft. Thus, when the guards are out of the building, they don't know the passwords, etc. If you want to be even more extreme, you can use magic or cyber to prevent the guards from remembering more any on shift time at all.

You can use drones for security. While the riggers can get kidnapped and mind probed, securing 5 drone riggers is cheaper than securing 60 security guards.

Your security system should be set up in such a way that detailed knowledge of its workings does not give an overpowering advantage. After all, the employees can be bribed or otherwise subverted even today.

The whole idea is to make research useful. You don't want it to be a random place of traps - that is DnD. A professional team would learn everything they could in any way that they could. Make sure that they need to do some research to get to the guards but if they mind probe them then let them. If they get rid of all the problems in the security end of things then they have done their jobs WELL. A run without a shot fired is a GOOD run.

All the traps that they didn't expect should be the GM's way of saying, "Do your research!" If they never need to enter - even better!

I'll give you an example of a good run. We had a job which involved going to a heavily secured facility to get a kid who was being held there to force a scientist to take their prototype to another corp. He had to finish it in two days and deliver it. That was our window.

We did a lot of research into the facility. I found out who was the head of security. We took his wife and child and traded them for the kid in a park.

Run over.

We got paid the same. We got a reputation boost. That security company refused to work for that corp again. Not a bullet was spent. Everyone participated and covered the area or did leg work.

If you find that mind probing an NPC gives away too much of your plot them make your plots more complex. Add more sides to a problem. Make it where one person doesn't have all the info. Don't take away a perfectly good tool.

...the thing is I do make up fairly complex plots, but MP (and other spells such as some Mental Manipulations) still tend to skirt a lot of the twists and intrigue I put in. I do not care to, as you mentioned "go DnD" by purposely setting random traps about. However in looking back at how previous scenarios went, that seems about the only option left. The way I see it, for a lot of companies or institutions, Cyber and magic are still very expensive countermeasures.

In the knowsoft scenario, all the runners would need to do is catch a guard while they still had the chip slotted (easy to do with Control Thoughts). Heck, all they need to do is get a hold of the knowsofts themselves. Also not sure a company would get many applicants if they regularly altered their employees' memories with spells, drugs or other means.

In another thread, it was mentioned the best way to deal with magic is with magic. Based on what I have seen I tend to agree. I just do not see every firm or institution being able to afford having full time mages on staff. If anything, Paranormal guard animals would make more economic sense but then that would only work in after hours situations (you don't want hellhounds roaming the hallways during business hours).

Don't forget that you also have to take the building's spider into account--the traps are their webs, and they'll be glad to capture the intruders before the magical or traditional security can intervene.

In the fluff from several books, one can easily back up a few of the things mentioned above. There is fluff that backs up the "feedback", saying that basically over time a mage that is exposed to too much of other people's personalities tends to get kinda crazy and unable to remember what was their memory and what wasn't, etc etc. There's a published run (Brainscan) that backs up the idea that a person being MP'd knows it's happening (my way of handling this is that a person will feel something happening, and if that person has a reason to know about the MP spell or has had it explained to them, they will know specifically that they are being MP'd).

With regard to the mental static that would interfere with the surface thoughts (ST) and conscious thoughts (CT) levels of success, keep in mind that most mages built with the BP system around the idea of having mental spells will be throwing so damn many dice that you'll practically never have to worry about adjudicating the ST and CT levels of success. Your main task will be figuring out how long the PCs have to sift through a target's subconscious before you move the plot along "asshat GM" style just to keep the game from ending in 30 minutes instead of a decent session length (again, if all you want is the cookies, I'll stay home, thanks). So while a couple of posters have had great ideas as to handling the ST and CT levels, it's my experience that those levels of success are not what ruins a game.

As far as "if MP ruins your game, make your games better" goes, frankly that just makes me think that you've either never GM'd, or have been extremely lucky, or just truly only see MP in the same light that you see an Ares Predator. If the latter is true, you are probably the first person I've ever ran into that doesn't mind if their few hours they were able to spend getting ready for a game among working, family, and other obligations are completely negated by one "optimized" mage with the Mind Probe spell.

...eidelon, thank you.

Your statement...

...keep in mind that most mages built with the BP system around the idea of having mental spells will be throwing so damn many dice that you'll practically never have to worry about adjudicating the ST and CT levels of success.

...is pretty much what I have been trying to get across. This has been something I have dealt with since running SR2. It is especially annoying when a couple mages routinely "gang up" on subjects (I also have an issue with this during negotiations tests, but that is another story) or someone with the old Focused Concentration Edge (SR2 - 3), bombarded the subject with "complementary" sustained spells to always insure maximum level of success.

Somewhere along the line, the team will run across a person with the right access codes/installation layout (someone has to have this info). Heck, just to do their rounds, sec guards need to know the basic floorplan configuration, access points, choke points, who else is on duty, etc. Having the runners go around and KO the NPCs to siphon this info out every time gets very old.

In the end it came down to three considerations:

1. Having an equally powerful mage (or two) at every site the runners broke into.

2. Giving NPCs unrealistically high Willpower scores just to give them somewhat of a chance against MP & Mental Manipulations so as to avoid the "hot knife through butter" syndrome.

3. Eliminating Mind Probe all together for both PCs and NPCs and houseruling controls to rein in Mental Manipulations a bit (which I have done for the second run of my Rhapsody in Shadow campaign).

Neither of these are really good solutions.

I tend to agree that Mind Probe needs some kind of drawback, even if it's just a drawback if you use it too often.
Like with spirits. People are constantly suggesting weird exploits involving spirits, to which we can always answer: "Spirit uses edge to resist" and "Spirit Bane" Rar! It's actually a pretty good go-to solution that solves a lot of those problems.
So I think the solution to Mind Probe is simple. Spirit Bane! Okay, so maybe it's not so simple, but some sort of GM-hammer is definitely in order for abusers of this spell. If someone were abusing this you might warn them that they'll get something like a 'telepathy addiction' that gives them penalties to interrogation rolls (if they're not using telepathy, since they've forgotten how to do it the old way) and, more importantly, penalties to resist similar spells cast on them.
And if they're only using these spells occasionally, on very important people, I don't think it's such a problem.

To be honest, the runners can get the floor plan, choke points, security personel etc by hacking the target location, which can even be done without having to go onsite.

You also might want to reconsider having the guards patroling alone. Even in pairs it's harder for the PCs to capture both without letting an alarm get out than it is with a single guard. If you're already having guards patrolling in groups, and the PCs are still dropping them all before the guards themselves can send an alarm, consider giving them biomonitors connected to the security network which sends an alert when they get taken down.

KK, it seems a major problem of your PCs is that they are approaching Shadowrun with a "Gotta Win" attitude. They do whatever gets them to their goal the easiest and then that's it. I'm not sure how you treat contact upkeep, or reputation but maybe you should just have a completely RP session. Just stop doing your campaign or put it in the background and just have your PCs hang out. Sometimes if all you keep getting is mission after mission after mission, you get into a do what makes us win attitude and can't do anything else. I'd just have all the PCs show up, make them think they're going on another campaign mission and then have them hang out, maintain contacts, gather some gear, or build up another relationship with a possible contact.