How about compartmentalizing you information?

You can access the secretary when you start out. She knows the front part of the building. Then you get to a guard. He can get farther into the building but not into level 2. Then you get the info to access level 2 but don' t have access to the labs. Then you get access to the labs. etc.

Make it like an onion with multiple ways of getting through each part. The security goes from regular guards to augmented guards to heavy drones. Past a certain point there is no one within reach to mind probe to get any farther.

Having the mind probe a series of willpower tests makes sense as well. I would also make it take a while. The mage is going to have to sift through lots of crap to get what he wants - especially if he is unconscious. Have the mage make some composure rolls as well.

If you want the guard to be able to do his job but not have a password for them to use then make it based on biometrics that match his being alone in a booth.

One thing I thought of was what if Corps wanted to augment their people but were too cheap to do so. They end up getting a bunch of combat drugs controlled by the spyder. Once an alarm of a certain level goes off he juices the guards. They could also have a drug connected to a biomonitor. If they go unconscious then it puts them into a false coma. The mage can't get anything useful.

If the facility were large enough you could have guards that only knew about the part they were stationed in, and that is an entirely reasonable means to limit the information gained from MP.

I don't think many of the ultra-paranoid denizens of 2070 would be terribly willing to have drug delivery devices attached to them. It's one thing to does yourself with combat drugs, but to have them imposed remotely is quite another. In the long term it would be cheaper to enhance a guard with 'ware (which you can even take out of his wages in a kind of company loan/perk type of thing), rather than pay the guard the extra cash required to get him to agree to be put into a coma if he's knocked out.

Don't forget that, unless you need stealth, a mage can simply have the target badly injured or rendered unconscious (stun spell, whatever). And with -3, -4 or -5D to resist the spell, even with a near superhuman willpower, a decent PC mage will get to unconscious thoughts quite easily.

And even for stealth action, that quite simple to do (even if you need more dices to do it): Influence to stop the target from reacting to its mind being probed, then alter memory to clean it.

It's almost flawless. Ok, it won't solve anything, but it's still the more powerful spell—and by FAR—in the book. And as being said earlier, the trio Mind Probe, Influence, Alter Memory, are more useful than anything else in the game.

To the point where it affect the world. Every non-shadow somewhat big time criminal (even a "simple" mob soldetto) need to take that capability into consideration, and remind himself of it everyday (until it's second nature). Because the cops will have access to it... oh yeah, for "public" cops like Seattle Lone Star it's illegal to use, and can't be evidence? Too bad, let's prove you have been probed...

A good dev editing would have been to seriously limit the capability of these three spells, starting with a big drain (+7 seems a bare minimum).

I'm sorry, wait, how is someone losing willpower dice to resist a spell? Injury modifiers to not apply to resistance tests. They would apply to a mages actual counterspelling, but not to the base resist.

Jérémie, what do you think happens to a mage known for using what you've described as an "almost flawless tactic" once word gets out that he specializes in Mindraping people? After all, can you really be sure that he doesn't do the same thing to you whenever you meet? (That is assuming that I agree that the tactic is the be-all-end-all that the anti-mage side seems to think that it is, I don't because of the simple means which a corp has to defend themselves plus the fact that it really isn't anything that a Decker specializing in Mindraping his victims using BTL grade Psych IC should be able to achieve given private access and a little time with his target.)

However, I do have to wonder whether Kyoto Kid has similair problems with the ease Deckers/Hardware Experts have in getting information/pass security systems, or the juicy tid-bits a good face can turn up if given the chance, because, the way I see it, if a corp is stupid or small enough to give people that it can't really protect whether through remote monitering, sequestoring them on corp grounds, or even providing fragging bodyguards key information that by itself will allow Joe Runner off the street to waltz right in and take whatever fancy do-dad they are working on this week then they either are or will very shortly be nothing more then the small frys that the Fixers of the Sixth World use for Milk Runs in order to judge their up-and-coming street level talent, or if they actually have anything to offer, newly aquired assests to a larger corp actually able to pay for security.

And if you have runners that are able to cut through the counter-measures mentioned throughout this thread "null sweat", then I'd humbly suggest that its time to retire the group of Prime Runners you have, or to give them tasks that are worthy of the likes of Fastjack, because I just don't agree that Mindraping your way through life is the 'I win' button that I perhaps mistakenly get the impression you think it is.

incidentally, you can know that the magician isn't mind probing you because mind probe explicitly lets the target know they're being mind probed. it does not let them know who is casting the spell, mind you, but in order to be able to get decent results, the mage will likely want a force 4 spell minimum, quite likely going up to force 6 or more, to insure enough hits to dig through the target's brain. add on to that the fact that you must be touching the target...

which means it's going to be quite easy to tell the mage is casting something... now it doesn't take much to figure out that if the mage is casting something at the moment, and that you're being mind probed at the moment, it's a pretty good bet that the mage is mind probing you. mind probe is not a discreet tool, it is in fact a very blunt instrument sort of way of getting information out of someone.

However, that is why the casting of Mind Probe is then covered up by Alter Memory, which admittedly isn't a perfect long-term solution, but hey, its enough to last for months on its own and I can't see any reason that it couldn't be reinforced by a second casting if the first wore off and you didn't manage to geek the fragging mage before he got to you a second, third, fourth, ect time. And we can't forget that he also uses Control Thoughts in order to aquire Ritual Links so he doesn't even have to get LOS in order to Mindrape you. Now granted, everything has to go 'just so' for him to use his supposed 'I win' button, but we have to assume that everything goes just perfect and that the spells in question are way overpowered for the NERF Squad's agrument to have any merit in the first place.

You see, given the hyper-paranoid nature of sucessful runners, fixers, ect I stand by my statement that any mage (Or Decker for that matter.) that lets it slip that his speciality is Mindraping people isn't long for the Sixth World.

*Edit*

And also remember that I very much doubt that your average runner, fixer, Mr J, man-on-the-street has the Knowledge Skills necessary to understand that by itself Mind Probe can't be used without them realizing it, after all I imagine that Karl Kombat Mage and its ilk shows two versions of Mind Probe, a horribly painful version that 'evil warlocks' use to learn your life story and the gentle and almost unnoticalbe version used by Karl in order to gleen the location of the tac-nuke just in time to use Physical Barrier to contain its explosion.

Well, all I can say is that I feel sorry for you if you really do let your players run roughshod all over you like that. (Of course, allowing your players to use rules which you hadn't throughly read and didn't own the book for might have something to do with it.)

Wait, I guess I do have something else to add, I don't consider smart Magical Security to be "escalating Magical proliferation", nor does it need having a Corp Mage on hand for every target in order to be effective. Of course, if you are convinced the magic really is a 'I win' button then there really isn't anything that anyone can say to convince you otherwise although I'd like to see exactly step-by-step what your players are using because I'd bet dollars to donuts that something is being misread.

There is a difference between being asleep and unconscious. Unconscious is the state you achieve with general anesthesia, a coma, or a blow to the face. We don't know exactly how your mind works while you are unconscious, but since there is no response to stimuli, it is believed there is no awareness. This could create two problems with mind probe.

1. "The target is aware of probing . . . ." An unconscious person (not necessarily a sleeping person) is unaware. Since you can't be both aware and unaware, it is impossible to mind probe an unconscious person.

2. "The subject may probe for one piece of information per Complex Action." This suggests the spellcaster is not sifting through memories like a book, but is having a communication with the mind. The caster asks a question, and the mind responds. This explanation of the how the spell work also helps to explain why the target is aware. However, since an unconscious person can't respons to stimuli, they couldn't respond to a mind probe.

Both of these provide plausible rationale to explain why mind probe wouldn't work on an unconscious target. I don't know if they are the intended interpretation of the rules, but they are certainly a logically accurate interpretation.

Another benefit of the "communication with the mind theory" is with glitches. If the spellcaster glitches, the victime shoud become aware not only of the mind probe, but of the desired information and to provide false answers. A critical glitch would allow the victim to read the mind of the spellcaster. Of course, you would have to keep the roll secret from teh player for maximum effectiveness.

I agree. I like the glitch and critical glitch idea as well... it isn't mentioned in the book though. Did you make it up, Fastball?

Also make sure you cap the hits (not net hits) made on the spellcasting check by the force of the spell. If they only cast it at the minimum force needed to obtain the required information (force 3), the guard needs only 1 hit on his resistance test to make sure only surface thoughts will be read.

And since they are one of the few people that might know the things they do, they sure as hell are using edge to make sure they don't risk losing their jobs. So just make sure the mage doesn't get more then 2 net hits on the first try and your the guard will be fine.

But the problem KK has is that her PCs will spend the time to just mindrape the guy until he can't resist anymore and they get the information they need. Then they pop the guy twice in his skull and dissolve him in a vat of acid or some such method to get rid of the body. At least, that's what I think her problem is.

Well the best way to stop a mage is to remove their ability to get at the guards. In a secure facility there is no reason for the guards to be seen in the first place. Have heavy combat drones actually standing behind false walls. Have guards walking above the hallways looking down through one way glass. Or have them walking along the side between walls between two hallways. Have a band of glowmoss along the halls as well. They patrol but you can't see them. The mage can't touch them. If there is a problem then they release sleep gas through the sprinklers. Have ID check rooms where if you get it wrong it will lower the whole room into a hardened area. It retracts the walls and puts you at the bad end of a firing range against a weapon emplacement with no cover.

or am I being too evil

Reading between the lines, KK., I think a lot of the problems you are having are stemming from a lack of control over your game, I'm afraid to say. For example, you mention that the magician character is suddenly able to be in charge of four of five characters by summoning spirits. Well firstly, assuming they were Force 4 spirits, that's 2k nuyen each for the binding. So assuming that a mage pulls that trick each game and he typically uses up all services (probably not quite, but close), then he or she is burning away eight to ten-thousand nuyen as expenses for each run. How does that happen? And he has enough left over for a decent lifestyle? The non-magician characters must be rolling in money!

And a minor point following on from that, the player doesn't have four or five extra characters. You the GM do. The player gets to order them about. The higher the force, the more personality I usually give a spirit. (Note, I don't always use this against a player. I had a particularly high force beast spirit enjoying battle so much that after killing the guards it was supposed to, it just carried on rampaging through the complex for the rest of the run.)

I wonder if there is a prejudice as well. Consider:

to add my 2 yen. I personally place restrictions on what a PC can play. I don't like to have more than 1 mage in a group, since they are dead rare. Same goes for adepts. If two PCs want to play mages then they have to be sufficiently different to not step on each others toes.

My biggest problem is with munchkin cyber-adept PCs optimised to a ridiculous level. Experience with these has led me to be suspicious of anyone that wants to play an adept, moreso than with mages or heavily cybered characters (despite it being possible to optimise most of the archetypes).

As for your mage summoning and binding 4 or 5 spirits for every run, ditto what Knasser said. That costs, and the player should still be rolling to summon and resist drain and whatnot. It may be that the mage is going to wind up starting the game with some damage from physical drain, which might discourage him from cavalier conjuring.

also, KK, you should note that only *edge* dice are immune to the spell's cap. keep some different coloured dice handy, and count the edge dice separately. spending edge should not mean you get to choose which hits came from edge... so if they roll 5 edge dice + a dicepool of 16, and their normal DP gets 8 hits on a force 5 spell and their edge dice gets another 1, that's only 6 useful hits, not 9.

also remember that rerolling with edge doesn't give you edge dice, it gives you back your normal dice... so if they roll 16 dice and get 6 hits, and spend edge to reroll 10 dice, getting another 3 hits... they'd better be casting a force 9 spell, or they're wasting their edge.

@Jaid: I am aware that the edge dice need to be kept separate in this instance. Just that I have seen some really insane instances of "exploding 6s".

@Garrowolf: You are not being evil at all. Your suggested countermeasures make excellent sense though, in the ID check room, I would just hose em dowon with something like a Gamma-S/DMSO combination then have Security "talk" to them after they wake up (of course any mages are "bagged" and further sedated).

@DigitEyez: I am reluctant to bring Magic Loss back into play since I feel it crocks Adepts more than spellcasters (& I tend to like Adepts).

@Knasser: The player who had the bound spirits also summoned a Spirit of Man to cast and sustain an increase WP spell on the character (an elf with a 7 charisma) for drain purposes before summoning and binding other spirits. On top of this, she had her Street Doc contact available to use First Aid in the event she took any physical drain damage (As I mentioned in my previous post, I have since nerfed this particular loophole by ruling that all drain needs to be healed up with rest). So here I was dealing with a mage who had a 12 Charisma + WP + focus bonus, giving her a hefty DP to roll against drain (I kind of miss the old sorcery pool here, at least then you had to allocate it among both tests as well as your initiative passes). Unfortunately she did also have the cash for materials after a fairly dangerous run the team was involved in (which she almost all but used up). Yes the Adept and Rigger were just as well compensated, but they did not become anywhere near as "unmanageable" as the Mage did.

Related to this, Mage's player would also summon a spirit to cast Increased Charisma on her before going to a meet to always have the upper hand in Negotiations tests. If the character didn't get what she wanted, the player would threaten to turn down the job & convince everyone else's characters to walk out. Result: end of session before it even starts. Not really something I enjoy spending the prep time on to have occur. Yeah, I may have been a glutton for punishment here by giving in, but at the time finding other SR players as well as a place to hold sessions was difficult (the player in question also hosted the game sessions, my apartment is way to small for this so I felt kind of stuck if I wanted to keep gaming).

If anything, it was more a lack of control over the individual player of the Mage, who admittedly was rather forceful and overbearing. In the end he caused several of the new players I had just brought in to the group to quit by his abrasive and domineering nature. It was not a good situation so I'll spare the details, but suffice it to say, I have since "remedied" the situation.

As to my "anti magic" prejudice this has been due much in part to player abuse of loopholes as to my aloofness to magic in general. It has caused me to at times, consider taking extreme and unrealistic measures just to counter such powerful characters, often at the expense of the other team members. Again I have filed away many of the suggestions made here in this thread for avoiding these issues in the future. I have not seen magic in other systems have such an impact as it does in SR, particularly with relation to Mages "right out of the box". In other systems it takes time to work up to be able to cast the really powerful spells. In SR a starting Mage has access to any spell in the book (limited only by the number of spells he can have at chargen and his MA). At first I kind of disliked the new advancement rules that required Karma for both initiation and Increasing MA (then mostly where adepts are concerned, though I am considering a houserule of a flat 20 Karma per PP in their case, you just do not get any of the benefits of initiation and MA is not increased). However, from what I've seen, making Spellcasters a real Karma Sink is a good thing.

@W/DigitEyez: In the comparison of interrogation by intimidation vs. by spell, agreed, the Sammy can achieve the same basic effect but needs to take several actions in order to do so (which are roleplayed out). If the target in unconscious (which was usually the case since the mage in the group would first Stunball the crap out of everyone) the Sammy can't do much except maybe shoot the guards in the head (only insuring nobody would get the information). The Mage on the other hand only has to be in sensory range (Force x Magic in Metres) to cast Mindprobe and need not resort to the tactics the Sammy uses to insure success. Depending on what sense is specified when casting the spell she doesn't even have to be in LOS. The worse thing is according the the RAW, the subject can be knocked out and she can still extract the needed information (I have since nerfed this as well). Take a few IPs to erase the spell signature afterwards and no one is the wiser. Even then, unless the offending Mage has a criminal record on file, the information gained from the signature may not be all that conclusive (provided the firm or installation has a Mage on the payroll with Assensing).

@ornot: I actually have considered what you suggest for building future teams. As I mentioned, the current team for the second run through of my Rhapsody in Shadow campaign only has one Mage (who BTW is run by a player much more into roleplaying than throwing god-awful amounts of dice or his weight around), and one Adept. Apparently the new group of players is much more into a balanced team. Guess I got lucky this time.

I am actually kind of surprised by the response this has stirred up. Again, I am grateful for the suggestions, references, and help.

mind probe is a touch range spell. any variations on that spell are variations that *you* have allowed into the game.

and if the player is blowing massive amounts of cash every run, the way to resolve this is to not give them massive amounts of cash every run. every now and then, they may make a lot of money, but if they make 2,000 a run normally (just throwing out random numbers here), and they spend permanently (note that the other two characters probably still have the benefits of their money, whereas the mage's money is gone for good) two or three times that amount per session, that means that it's not gonna take long before the mage is living the street lifestyle... at which point you are, imo, justified in giving them penalties in social situations, restricting what sort of equipment they are able to keep around without it all getting stolen while they sleep, subjecting them to poor sleep due to exposure, diseases, etc.

if they just blew a ton of money on one run, and it's not sustainable, don't worry about it. keep in mind that you could just as easily get a similar result from any player simply by hiring a local gang, or by gradually adding more drones to their collection, or even by hiring another group of runners potentially.

...under the description of Detection spells the range is touch (for initially casting them on yourself or a willing target), however, they all have an effective range of Magic + force in Metres with the exception of the "extended" versions.

Or am I reading this wrong?

After reading eidolon's post I had a look through the book, and it does, indeed, appear that Mindprobe isn't limited to people you can touch, as I thought it was. Indeed, one can cast it on oneself and wander around mind probing passersby, so long as you sustain it.

Looking at it that way, I'd be inclined to increase the thresholds for information. Anyone care to compare the TNs for this spell in SR3? I seem to recall them being pretty high, but I don't have SR3 on hand.

The way I read it is, the range for bestowing the enhanced sense (in this case, the sense of mindbrobiness) is touch. You must be able to touch the person who will gain the ability to probe minds (which may involve touching yourself). The person who has the new sense (your or the person you touched) can probe minds at a range of Magic + Force meters.
Again, it's subject vs. target.

I think it should be required that you be touching the person's mind that you're probing, but I don't think that's what the book says.
I'm not 100% sure, though.

edit: ornot beat me. I guess I was remembering correctly.

hmmm... well, in that case, i guess mindprobe just became a whole lot crazier (edit: to me, that is). iirc, there's no perception chance to notice someone is sustaining a spell, they can now target different people as they choose... that's just downright crazy.

in fact, there isn't even really a chance of spell failure resulting in drain with no benefit, because you're just placing it on a buddy who won't resist (possibly you).

wow... i liked it a lot better when i thought you had to be targetting the person you want to mind probe...

...now you can understand why I loathe this spell so much and why I believe it needs serious nerfing.

Changing the subject from touch to self and changing the range to the target from LOS to touch would be a good start.

I feel like Mind Probe is overpowered, but I don't think it's nearly as overpowered as a lot of other people seem to.
But my players aren't really using it. Why not? I'm not sure. Possibly because we reached a good understanding of what kind of game we all wanted before we started, and making an elite team of brainrapers (while possible) would necessarily take the game in a direction that none of us really want to go. Maybe next campaign.

I think KK's mage player needs to get some focus addictions and maybe a geas or two, hehe.

it's not clear to me how decrease charisma will drop a troll.

Also the problem with MP is not when it's used by an average starting mage, but rather when it's used by an optimised build using edge, and then not just being used to assist questioning in a rough bar, but to extract information from guards at a facility.

I personally don't see it as being hugely overpowerful, especially if the security team are trained to recognise someone rooting around in their thoughts, and particularly sensitive information is not given out to guards.

I was concerned that by RAW it effectively had line of sight range, and that one could use it on multiple targets with only 1 drain resistance test and a sustaining penalty.

I'd have thought there would be modifiers for the target's willpower based on how much depth you wanted, but I don't have an SR3 book handy. I know that when MP got used in an old SR3 game I played, the GM demanded about 6 or 7 successes versus a TN of 8 or something silly.

Really? Where is that stated?

I would suggest that you'd been playing with cancer for too long, but that would be uncalled for in its meaness.

And I like to think I'm generally regarded as not-mean.

[QUOTE]I'd have thought there would be modifiers for the target's willpower based on how much depth you wanted, but I don't have an SR3 book handy. I know that when MP got used in an old SR3 game I played, the GM demanded about 6 or 7 successes versus a TN of 8 or something silly. [/QUOTE]
iirc the tn was the targets will, and the number of successes needed was the same as in sr 4 which of course means that in sr 4 it's harder to get the number of needed successes. ( any one remember rolling 20 dice for spells in sr3?)
[QUOTE]Really? Where is that stated?[QUOTE]
iirc, the spell decrease att. states that if an att drops to 0 or below, the character is incapacitated. You can decide if they pass out, stand and drool or make stange faces in the air, but the result is the same, no actions available.
[/QUOTE]I think KK's mage player needs to get some focus addictions and maybe a geas or two, hehe. [QUOTE]
That brings up an interesting question.... when would you impose an addiction on a mage, how many foci would they have to be using? 2? 5? their magic rating? My standard starting mage starts with 2-3 bound foci one of which is virtually always functioning (inc. ref.) And usually they don't ever get anymore foci (it's just too damned expensive karma wise to bind them. OR do you just do it to gimp a character that you either don't like or think they mess up your runs by doing things like casting mind probe?

in Sr 3 (and I'd be willing bet will be returning with whatever book has the drugs coming out in it,) there were drugs that lowered people's willpower and were billed as truth serums.
Actually, a face, just has to make a phone call to get teh info, and maintenance once in a while (which might actually improve the contacts ratings,) and a hacker doesn't have a tally any longer, and a sammy shooting off fingers and limbs (or kneecapping as mentioned above) only costs the sammy bullets.

Eh. Agree to disagree, then.

(Likely has a lot to do with edition differences, I can't speak to how powerful or not it is in 4.)

yeah, agree to disagree.
another exaple that had come to me was using orgy or any of the other spells that decrease a characters dp (not att.) and then have someodo interogation. You could be nice and use orgy or mean and use agony. Either way, you're going ot get your answers prety easily.
Back in SR 3 we were running brainscan, and one of my mages mp'd the head renraku guy. Basically, they gm said you gett nothing because knowing what was really happening (i.e. that he was going to majorly screw us) would have ruined the plot. The GM can always rule that way. Or give as misleading of answers as he wants.

As an aside, the mere fact that a spell called "orgy" exists in SR4 makes me wonder if the guys hired out to a team of 13 year olds for writing the magic section.

edit: And since the person(s) that wrote the magic section may see this, note that I haven't given the section a thorough reading and am not actually commenting on your writing ability. Just your judgment and the fact that writing up spells after watching hentai and drinking a sixer of your favorite libation is probably a bad idea.