Just went through an insane battle., What could we have done better? Options

[Eleazar]

We are still going to have to get to him somehow. This fight with the vampire isn't over yet. After we get done licking our wounds and healing up we will have another go at it. The only thing is, the enemy is going to be expecting an attack. So they are going to be at an even greater defensive advantage. They now know what we are capable of and the cards we are holding in our hand. Another frontal attack would definitely be suicide in this case.

There are a few things I am thinking here that might work:
1. Steak out the location and wait till she goes for a night out in the city. Wait for the opportune time and kill her.
2. If she is always heavily guarded every place she goes, have the demolitions guy place a very powerful car bomb, killing all the guards along with her.
3. Use alter memory since I have it to get loyalty from one of the guards and infiltrate the vamp's estate that way. Once we have covertly entered the building we go directly for the vamp and take her out.
4. This strategy should be applied to all of the strategies. Have our hacker take full control of the building if possible, to help ensure we are not hindered by technology.
5. I will summon an air spirit and use concealment and guard on all party members(I did this before till it was disrupted). If battle ensues I will instruct them to take out the vampire as soon as possible. Wounding the vampire horribly is not enough, she must be killed.

One last question about concealment. How exactly is a test done against concealment to tell if someone is seen or not? If I have a Force 6 spirit that is a -6 on all perception tests to see them. The guards and spirits were obviously able to see us without any problems. So how much does it really hinder them?

[hyzmarca]

Concealment only works if the enemy characters have to make a perception test. No perception test is required to see things that are obvious, which is why it is very important that you use a Stealth skill in conjunction with Concealment, usually Infiltration.

Also, it is highly important that you don't rely on Concealment alone, if you do your enemies will get a +5 modifier to spot you because the guy shooting at them is kind of obvious (+2) and they'll be making an effort to find you (+3). This makes Concealment rather useless. You need to stack other modifiers with it, use bright lights (flares or portable flood lights) (-1 if they don't have flarecomp) and thermal smoke grenades (between -2 and -6) to conceal your positions. Use throwaway comlinks as noisemaker grenades, simulating the muzzle flash and gunshots to provide further distractions (-2).

SInce you'll be dealing with Spirits and magician's, you'll want to use living biomass help lower astral visibility. FAB grenades are useful for this, but a few devil rats tied to drones should be enough to provide distraction penalties.

Remember, it is a test of your Infiltration+Agility vs their Intuition+Perception+Modifiers and they get to make a test every time you take a shot, if not more often. You have to go out of your way to stack up the modifiers against them.

[Cheops]

Don't know if this has been asked yet but:

Have you received a ransom call yet? and
How long was it from kidnapping to attempted rescue?

Hacking is going to be your friend for the next attempt. If it is a modern luxury or high class estate it will have the accutrements including cameras, etc. At least next time you storm the place everyone can have an AR feed of the locations of all participants.

Also, try intercepting wireless phonecalls and tapping hardwired phone lines. Vampires hardly ever work alone so she'll probably be communicating with someone else. This is especially true if you guys had no clue that there was a vampire after you.

@hymarca: If the GM just used stats straight out of On the Run, which I suspect he may have since this event has been stated as fall-out from that run then the vampire mage does not have Alter Memory and is not actually all that super powerful unless she's been feeding just prior.

[Eleazar]

No ransom call yet. If they asked for ransom I wouldn't pay it. There is no way I am going to spend my nuyen towards that. The only option would be another rescue attempt. I would think they would change locations if a ransom call is made since we already know where they are. At least that is what I would do if I was in their position. Makes it more difficult for the enemy to do something, and they have to do more legwork to find the location, which they may not be able to find out in time. If they want a ransom it is very possible the covert ops specialist might die or be turned into one of the vampires goons. In which case a new character would have to be created.

[knasser]

Just a note that if this is the published adventure On the Run which many of us have read, then we should avoid making any comments about specific details in there which players will not know. For two reasons: one it might be bad advice because the GM could easily alter anything in there and two, how would any of us feel if a player went online and looked up details of our adventure?

Incidentally, two tactics that have yet to be mentioned. Firstly, time the attack appropriately. If it's a vampire and you're planning to blow the roof off the building or something, then make sure you do it near dawn.

Two, don't forget the power of the false alarm. Send in a few cheap / disposable drones / spirits / thugs. Make the opposition waste those valuable spirit services, blow their ambush positions, etc. Even back it up with a trid phantasm in the background to make it look as though you're following fast behind. Wait, watch, study, attack.

-K.

[Eleazar]

Thanks for that clarification knasser, I doubt anything people might have given away was deliberate or realized. I very much appreciate the input thus far. Thank you.

[Jaid]

just a side note, remember that normal smoke blocks astral sight, too.

you don't need some fancy bacterial mist, you don't need devil rats tied to drones, you just need smoke.

also, i'll chip in my 0.02 :nuyen: and tell you that the ultimate doomsday device vs spirits is actually... *drum roll* ...the defiance ex shocker. sufficient to chew through 16 points of hardened armor, +2 per net hit. furthermore, if i remember my taser rules right, it even hits on a tie, because it's a touch attack. seriously, unless you literally are facing force 10 spirits, the shocker will kick the crud out of them... and it's 500 :nuyen: for one with an integral smartlink. (also usable in melee, if you so desire). plus it's perfectly legal, so no availability check needed.

i might also suggest some gas grenades (pepper punch especially) or flashbangs as being good ways to take out guards without worrying about your friends safety. and once again, the pepper punch grenades are both legal and cheap.

[knasser]

Woah woah woah! We had a whole five page thread on whether or not spirits were affected by electrical damage which I recall being one of the major arguers in. (here if you're interested).

My considered opinion is that spirits will not be affected by stick and shock as they explcitly do not possess a nervous system. If you're going to follow the rules that slavishly, then for consistency your fire elemental is not immune to fire and your water elementals are prone to drowning. RAW is also that the Immunity to Weapons applies to electricity damage too, so a Force 4 Fire Elemental still has some pretty good resistance rolls against stick and shock.

[Jaid]

does a car have a nervous system?

remember we're talking about a strong enough charge to short out vehicles with a fair degree of consistency.

the defiance ex-shocker can penetrate a spirit's hardened armor not because of being non-normal weapons, but because it has a base DV of 8S and AP of 1/2, which means it ignores half the spirit's armor and the half which remains is dealing with 8+net hits damage.

after all, if you can disrupt a spirit by shooting it with a bullet, keeping in mind the spirit has no vital organs or anything, you can disrupt a spirit by electrocuting it, regardless of whether it has a nervous system or not. i could certainly understand if you rule that the spirit doesn't have to worry about getting knocked unconscious, though.

[Clyde]

+1 on Super Shocker. Smoke, Flashpaks and Flashbangs are good, too. Actually, take out all the lights and use ultrasound. Research vampiric vulnerabilities. Crossbow bolts (wooden) and wooden clubs may help. Wearing gas masks and using CS gas when you enter will really slow down guards, too.

Call your contacts - they may know what's going on. Call your kidnapped buddy's contacts (if you can), they may be interested in helping out.

Consider placing a call to the vampire. It may be willing to negotiate (which will at least buy you some time). It may also get you a name your hacker can research. Maybe the vampire has enemies who will help you out.

Keep the place under surveillance (at least remotely).

Finally, make sure to keep your escape route open. You don't really want to explain this to Lone Star. And has anyone considered hitting this place in daylight? Blowing open windows to let sunlight in will probably keep the vampire unhappy.

[kzt]

[Ravor]

You know, something that another poster mentioned earlier is starting to resonate with me, why not get Lone Star to do the dirty work for you? Have your Decker whip up some evidence framing the Vampire for a crime against someone holding a Lone Star Security contract and then turn it in, if you play your cards right, you might even be able to get a small reward. (And if your DM is the type that plays the light and fluffy Rainbow Brite and Dropbear version of Shadowrun they might even consider not simply geeking everyone inside and calling it a day.)

After all, getting your buddy out in the aftermath can't be any more stupid then trying to hit the vampire a second time given what we know about how the first battle went.

[ Spoiler ]

And of course, since she is appearently the vampire slitch from 'On the Run', we can assume that using a three-way firefight as a magical albeit senseless saving grace to pull the team's hoop out of the fire probably doesn't grate at the DM's last nerve quite as badly as it does mine.

I'm sorry, but in case you can't tell, I *REALLY* wasn't impressed by the "plot twist" the writer introduced to On the Run, they'd be better off throwing Cyberzombies at the new Runners like they did in Third Edition. :cyber:

Still, in the end I'd strongly advise calling in Lone Star and then blowing the building with everyone inside, after all, based off what the DM wrote in another thread your buddy is only going to end up getting himself and possibly your entire team killed with his loose lips anyways.

[hyzmarca]

[Eleazar]

How much would a spell like physical barrier give as a distraction or hinderance on an astral perception test. What about mana barrier? The physical barrier gives a -1 on the physical plane due to it's appearance, but what about its appearance on the astral?

[Cheops]

Quick question about this character:

Is it a PC?
Did the player not show up that session and that is why he is kidnapped?
Will the player be showing up to subsequent sessions?
Why hasn't the PC if the player was there made efforts on their end?


Another really good option is to make a joint strike. Have 1 or 2 sams gas the room where the hostage is and make a non-lethal entry (using gel and shockers) directly into that room while the remaining sams and the mage make a diversionary attack at the front (or some other location).

[knasser]

[toturi]

It is usually a good idea to have a PC with very high Logic or even Intuition. I'll explain why. A smart(high Logic) or a streetsmart(high Intuition) PC can enable the team to actually pull off a clever plan without the GM jumping in and declaring that since the PCs are dumb and said NPC villian is smart, the villian has already anticipated the PCs' moves.

In fact, if a PC is smarter than the villian, the PCs could conceivably kick in the door and ignore the "smarter" ideas. Why? Simple, since the villian already knows the PCs are coming, he would expect them to make use of a smart tactic to get in, then kicking in the door would be a surprise!

[Adept_Damo]

[Cheops]

Is there a window to his room?
Is it tinted?
Does your mage have Levitation and Invis?

Also, next session the hacker should find out how their place is wired. If all the doors are maglocked and controlled through matrix security the hacker could have some fun. Override the locks on all doors and basically herd them through like cattle in order to separate and defeat in detail.

You could always A-Team it too. Armor plate a van through means of montage and use said van to drive through the front entrance. They wouldn't see that coming!

[ornot]

Lonestar might have something to say about an armoured van being driven into a building in a high security area...

[PBTHHHHT]

They'll say it after the fact. After they have driven it through the firefight is going on. Maybe the players might want LS intervention if it really hits the fan against a spirit summoning vampire.

[Eleazar]

We do not know the specific room he is being held in, only that it is upstairs. We were also given no perception check to hear where the vamp went, so I can't tell you. I don't know if there is a window to his room. All windows are tainted and have shades. I have invis and I think I might have levitation.

It is difficult to say what Lonestar might do when a vampire is involved. Especially one summoning spirits like this. I was also incorrect about the Force of the spirit, after speaking with the GM, he said it was a Force 12.

[Ravor]

Force 12

*dry chuckle*

Well, even if you do decide to try to rescue your buddy a second time, if I were you, I'd advise everyone to make new characters, just in case, so when one or more die you can get on with the game with less of a hang-up.

Oh, it may be advisable to rig the team with Dead Man Triggers and Biomonitors, that way when you do suffer a TPK you'll at least take the fragging slitch down with you when the triggered bombs brings the building down, just be sure that you trust the team member(s) setting it up so that it isn't solely hooked to their monitor(s) and will only go off in case of a TPK or with a triggered command.

And even if you manage to rescue your loose-lipped buddy, blow the building behind you so you run a slightly lesser chance of the slitch's boss figuring out who did it and coming after your team.

[knasser]

Force 12...

I have to ask what you did? Kill and eat the GM's dog?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Nah, the GM just wanted to challenge the characters and there was no great dragon available. :P