 Regrets, Was fourth edition a good business move? |
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 Apr 5 2007, 06:27 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856  |
Are you holding out on us knasser? SR4 + SM = 2 Runner Havens = Setting book not core supplement On the run = Module GM Screen = ? (Not core supplement though) Have you got something we don't? ;) |
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Apr 5 2007, 06:45 PM
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#27
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm counting Runner Havens. |
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Apr 7 2007, 06:10 PM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
SR4 has got to be the second most complete core book I have ever seen in my gaming time (only RD's ED books out do it and even then you kinda need the 2 core books). There is more than enough with the Core book plus Errata and FAQ to keep a group going for a long time.
I was one of the most vocal proponents against SR4 when it first was announced but now I am behind it completely. It is a very good system and is winning many converts. I even had a club member who refused to play anything but SR3 recently agree to play and she seems to enjoy it. The main problem with SR is that it is not the main money maker for the company. If it were then we'd see stuff coming out at a rapid pace. But the market for SR is much smaller than Battletech and Das Schwarze Auge (sp?) so it makes sense to focus on those two. There is a very small team working on all 3 games with a staff of freelancers they have to run herd on. It's all about priorities. Honestly, SR was dead until SR4 came out. We're lucky to still have new products coming out IMO. |
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Apr 7 2007, 07:27 PM
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#29
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I have to concur that the Core Book is more complete than in previous editions. With the inclusion of Bioware and Initiation it does give players more options at the outset. Technomancers while an interesting concept (and thank you, they are not magic) still need a bit more tweaking to be playable as PCs. Hopefully this will be handled with the release of Emergence.
Where things fall a little flat is vehicles. Granted they couldn't put a comprehensive list in the Core Book (hopefully Arsenal will fix this). However, a representative of each of the following types should have been included: Light truck (e.g. Toyota Gopher or Ford F-150) Heavy truck/Tractor (e.g. Conestoga Trailblazer) Light van (e.g. VW SuperKombi or Renault-Fiat Eurovan) SUV (e.g. Land Rover) LTA (Luftshiffbau LZ-2051) Winged Aircraft (Lockheed C-260 Titan civilian equivalent) Many of these are staple vehicles that would be used or encountered on runs. Without even a generic description for vehicle attributes, there is little to go on for working up new types. |
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 Apr 7 2007, 07:37 PM
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#30
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,619 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Yeah, Vehicles would have needed an extra page or two for more detailed descriptions and a few more models.
In most cases, stats for vehicles aren't needed, though. Bye Thanee |
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Apr 8 2007, 02:06 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Reutlingen.de Member No.: 677 |
Though focusing on technomancers, Emergence will not provide expanded rules or tweaks for technomancer PC's. Emergence is a plot book, similar in structure to System Failure or (to a lesser extend) YotC. Any advice for the GM how to include or deal with technomancer PC's while running Emergence will be mostly roleplaying or character-development related. Expanded rules etc for Technomancers will be included in Unwired. |
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Apr 8 2007, 09:06 PM
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#32
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...arrgh, that will be too many releases down the road. Looks like I'll stick with playing hackers for now.
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Apr 9 2007, 03:24 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 28-March 06 From: Ottawa Ontario Canada Member No.: 8,409 |
+1 on all that. I find vehicle choices TERRIBLE. There's multiple models of every category of weapon (heavy, SMG, assault rifle, etc) but only one sedan, one van, etc. It's kinda wack. This brings up a point: I've played SR and SR2 but never SR3. How do the vehicle stats compare from SR 3 to SR 4? Could one purchase the SR3 rigger book and use it in the interim until Fanpro gets off their cans and releases more vehicles? Would there be a lot of tweaking involved, or does it look like an easy conversion? I couldn't find any info on vehicle conversions here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10441 Thanks. |
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Apr 9 2007, 06:23 AM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,532 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Canada Member No.: 769 |
The stats are completely different. All rigger 3 will really give you is a ballpark number as it compares to vehicals that are actually in the SR4 book. For example Rigger 3 and SR 4 both have stats for a Jackrabbit so using that as a baseline you could branch things out. That's what I did creating a special forces tilt wing. I'll post it here again even though it's been posted before. This is based on the TR 55 Tilt Wing from Rigger 3 which is quite simmilar to the tilt wing found in SR4.
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Apr 10 2007, 12:42 AM
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#35
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Dear gods, I wouldn't. It's effectively the Neo-Anarchists guide to Hong Kong. Seattle and the other areas are basically afterthoughts. As the Hong Kong splatbook, it's a solid piece of work. As a "core supplement", it falls so flat as to be laughable.
It's more complete than previous Shadowrun BBB's, but it's got nothing on the core books for GURPS or HERO for options. You start out powerful, but you can never really advance; d20 and D&D can start you anywhere you like, and you can still advance. (I'm playing in an epic-level game right now, where we were basically handed 21st level characters. And we're still planning for our next level up.) SR$ is lighter than previous editions, but it's still got nothing on Savage Worlds or other mid-crunch systems, let alone super-light systems like Wushu or Capes. The strength of Shadowrun has always been the Shadowrun world. As Bull himself admitted, this was effectively the same thing as converting SR to d20. Which would make sense, from a financial standpoint; big enough changes will draw people in by force of sheer curiosity. |
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Apr 10 2007, 12:48 AM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 2-April 07 Member No.: 11,358 |
Isn't that akin to saying, "Sure, your address book is good- but the phone book has way more in it?" Comparing to GURPS and HERO seems like you're not being fair. You might as well say that yes, a certain death-themed miniatures company has a lot of options, but has nothing on a block of clay. |
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Apr 10 2007, 05:49 AM
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#37
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Not really. The OP's question was about rather or not SR4 was a good business move. The only way of telling that is to compare it to other companies, and what they're doing. Both GURPS and HERO, to the best of my knowledge, are enjoying strong sales, and they're not that much larger than Fanpro in total staff. Both cases show that substantial changes probably weren't necessary; any new edition would have probably sold just as well.
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Apr 10 2007, 07:25 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
2 strikes in one sentence, you are improving.... Unfortunately just goes to show that you really have your finger on the pulse of the market. :sarcasm: |
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Apr 10 2007, 02:18 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
I think a 4th edition was a good move but there are some little things that I find funny in the core book.
Parachute skill but no parachutes? |
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Apr 10 2007, 05:47 PM
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#40
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Really? Why don't you post the numbers you have, so we can all take a look? :proof: Every time I ask a Fanpro insider for actual numbers, all i get is mumbles about "strong sales",, "better than everyone else", etc. Why don't you show us an actual comparison? With actual numbers? [edit]Steve Jackson Games' in-house pdf publisher, posts actual numbers for its sales. We can extrapolate a bit from there, and backwalk their previous sales. So, we not only know that SJG is enjoying "strong sales", but we know what that actually means. I challenge Synner to do the same. This post has been edited by Cain: Apr 10 2007, 06:11 PM |
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Apr 10 2007, 06:26 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
This is an amusing argument to me. Why should I (or any of us) care about the actual numbers? It has no effect on me how many other people are buying this stuff, except indirectly, as it affects FanPro's decisions to make further releases. I'm not an investor or anything. The only reason to cry out for sales numbers in this way is to be senselessly adversarial... oh. Hey. I think I'm on to something.
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Apr 10 2007, 06:27 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
This is none of my business, but that SJGames link you sent is not only useless as an overall indicator of their profit and loss, but also useless to help make your point. Plus it's old. What does "strong" mean these days, anyway?
You don't have to talk to many industry insiders to know that the gaming industry is tiny and in a poor state. I guess the good news is that this has seemingly always been the case. ;) The first crisis was Magic the Gathering. Folks said "Buh-bye" to RPGs for a while. Then there was the "d20 Boom/Bust," which took so much attention away from everything else that things still haven't settled down. You hear stories from artists and other creditors at cons about not getting paid. It's always the same companies perrenially struggling to get out of the red. GURPS and HERO have the advantage of longevity and an installed base of old timers like me. I love HERO. But Steve Long has become the most long-winded, prolific writer since Gary Gygax for crying out loud. Fantasy Hero is like two inches thick. TWO INCHES. And it's packed with tons and tons of meta gaming material... theory on fantasy as a genre, blah blah blah. I still haven't found the section about actuallly making a Fantasy Hero character. ;) All indications are that SR4 is one of the hottest properties in the industry right now, and that's great. But it doesn't mean a whole lot when everyone else isn't doing very well in the first place. =) |
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Apr 10 2007, 07:41 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As several people have taken the time to explain (again and again) it is not FanPro policy to release sales to the public. Neither I nor any of the people I know are going to break with company policy.
You've been told (several times) that print runs are comparable to the FASA equivalents and that recent releases have outsold their predecessors in the same period of time. I honestly don't care if you believe me or not. Information from any credible market source will back me up. SR4 has in fact just hit its Fourth Printing and is still selling strong - which would be why we've sold out 3 full print runs. To use but one easy reference you've called upon before: SR4 has remained in the drivethrurpg.com Top20 longer than any small print rule book release and remains there almost 2 years into release (comparably Cyberpunk 3.0, released around the same time is now tracking in the 30s). A goodly portion of the Fourth Printing is already assigned to satisfy standing orders from clients who've sold out.
You made a comment to the effect that the new editions of GURPS and Hero were doing well. I replied to that "the best of your knowledge" is somewhat off. In reply to that you produce a link to SJG figures dated from May 2006. Me? Well, I prefer to read the implications of this. Only 2 (3 if we're charitable) GURPS releases for 2007. Compare with what GURPS used to put out and tell me the line is still enjoying strong sales. Hero 5 Revised is still working through its second printing (to the best of my knowledge and I'm a fan of the game) going on 2 and a half years. Note this is nothing to thumb your nose at in today's market, but compare that to pre-Fuzion Hero sales... |
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Apr 10 2007, 07:46 PM
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#44
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Given the state of the RPG market right now, probably one of the worst Shadowrun mistakes (well, from the publishing side of things) is the fact that FASA and FASA Interactive split up the digital media rights. A number of RPG outfits are either making money off of licensing to video games (D&D, Warhammer) or are getting in bed with that market (White Wolf and CCP merger). Unfortunately, the print side of Shadowrun makes nothing off of any video games based on the world, nor can there really be any truly complimentary products between the print and video games without some serious lopsided renegotiations.
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Apr 10 2007, 08:55 PM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I think that the strongest indicator that I have seen for the success of SR4 is this:
During SR3 I saw my FLGS reduce Shadowrun from front shelf with about a 16 book frontage to a measly 3-4 book frontage in the rear of the store. SR4 has not yet gotten back to the front but it has doubled space on the shelves and the owners don't look at you like you're a moron when you ask for the latest SR book. |
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Apr 10 2007, 09:42 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Actually, I've wondered occasionally how much the hardback books helped at all with that, Cheops. A hardback book with nice production values is more likely to get a nice share of shelf-space from a store manager.
Now, enough people are buying online now that I'm not sure it really changes much, but still - sometimes perception is reality :) |
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Apr 10 2007, 10:20 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
This wasn't technically a mistake, as the interactive IP is all MS was interested in at all anyway. Otherwise no deal and no retirement for the FASA guys. |
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Apr 10 2007, 11:44 PM
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#48
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, I know, but it does essentially leave Shadowrun out in the cold in an age where all the print RPGs are moving into the digital world. |
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Apr 10 2007, 11:49 PM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Didn't they really only want BattleTech anyway? Seems like the interactive IP for SR was thrownin to not confuse the lawyers...
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Apr 11 2007, 04:01 AM
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#50
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Hot Hazing Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 8-April 07 From: Regina, Canada and Montreal, Canada. Member No.: 11,410 |
Well, I have a bit of a unique perspective on all this. I used to come to dumpshock pretty regularly back during the 2nd edition of SR. A little during the third, but not much. I haven't really played in years and years, and only recently got back into it. The 4th edition is an incredibly interesting shift. It opens up all sorts of different avenues, and the story is getting more in depth all the time. Which, at least for me, was always the strength of SR. I am seeing it get more push--albeit just a little--in game stores, and the more I get into the new rules, the more I can see why. I think the game is as good as ever, and the dice system is interesting and not at all hard to really get into. I haven't run a game with it yet, as my old team has been disbanded forever and I've yet to find a new one in my area, but in theory, I really enjoy it.
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