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Magusinvictus
Hi

This is not intended as a disparaging question, so please don’t anyone take it the wrong way…

To my mind, the production rate of fourth edition books seems to be quite slow, certainly when compared to the third edition. I was wondering, does anybody know if Fanpro are in trouble; does anybody feel that maybe they are now regretting the decision to make the move to a new edition, rather than sticking to, and further developing/supporting, the third?

Anyway, no offence intended. Thanks for your comments!!!
Dread Polack
I'm not quite an insider, though I used to work for a major game company, and my opinion is:

Really, the whole RPG business is in a terrible slump, and even though SR4 is chugging along pretty slowly, it's probably still making money and doing better than a lot of other games. The only RPGs that seem to be putting stuff out faster are D&D and the HERO system (although I'm sure there are more I'm not following). Given the difficulties of the industry, it seems to still be afloat. I had a lot more frustration with the Lord of the Rings RPG a couple years ago, where the company was being a lot less honest about what was going on.

I'm still hopeful, but in this business, it could choke at any slight bump in the market.

Dread Polack
Glayvin34
I recently went looking on Yahoo! Groups for an SR4 game, and found only SR3 games. So now I'm thinking that SR4 as a complete game is still in a "pre-release" status. A few of the books are available, but not enough to play. If you like Shadowrun, play SR3 for now.
the_dunner
While new books may be slower to release than many diehards would like, the core rules has sold through 3 complete print runs in 18 months, with a fourth on its way to retailers. In the current marketplace, there's nothing from a comparably sized game company with that kind of sell-through.

In terms of actual sales, the majority of any game lines profit are in core book sales, not supplement sales. (Only a percentage of players buy supplements. The majority of players buy the core rules.)

So, looking at things just from a financial perspective, fourth edition was a brilliant move.
2bit
SR4 got a snazzy award at the con too, iirc. . . so beaucoup kudos.
Wraithshadow
I'd say that Fanpro's got a few concerns out there- first is the market as a whole. There's not exactly a boom, as Dread Polack mentions. Further, you've got the debate about 3 vs 4- is the new system as good as the old system? People tend to favor what they know over what's unknown. In a sense, the different editions of Shadowrun are competing with one another.

Now, with all that said, I think Fanpro's probably doing the smart thing in keeping print runs small while having pdfs open for purchase. If they're on a tight budget, it makes sense to make what you think you can sell, keep your money doing things rather than sitting in a warehouse. I think the lack of books on shelves might discourage people from picking up the game, but not as much as it might back when the shelf was the only marketplace. Now you can get online, track down a copy, and have it at your door in 2-3 days, or download the file and be reading it in minutes.

Also, there's the upside of controversy- not only in difference of editions, but in the FPS game. How many Shadowrun fans are going to play it because it is Shadowrun, and then go off on how it's not right- that Shadowrun's so much better? How many people are they going to want to show this fact off to?

Me, personally, I peeked in on a discussion of the FPS elseforum, and it had gotten into 3 vs 4. The discussion about 4 was enough that I went looking. I had seen Shadowrun back in 1st edition and had a copy of 2nd sitting around, never used. Between the discussion and a friend's request for opinions on what game to run next, I started thinking about Shadowrun more. I also got thinking about what I'd heard about 4, the fact it addressed the changes in technology that have taken place since the game was first invented. And after prodding the 'Net for a while, I finally picked up a copy. Here I am.

Controversy got me in the door, innovation made me stick around. Not too bad, ne?
ThreeGee
QUOTE
A few of the books are available, but not enough to play.


Amazing, do you really believe this?

I've just completed my single most complex and detailed SR campaign in 17 years of playing, with just the Core rules and, later, Street Magic.

Yeah, I could do with Augmentation, Arsenal and Emergence, but they aren't necessary to play. If I really need something that might appear in those books I make it up. We might have to retcon later but that's the nature of RPG'ing. You never have the entire world at you fingertips.
coolgrafix
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
QUOTE
A few of the books are available, but not enough to play.


Amazing, do you really believe this?

Had the same thought. The main book is crammed full of damned near everything that the sourcebooks brought to the game over years. Frankly, I don't know what the hell the new sourcebooks are going to introducing. =)
snowRaven
IMO, SR4 is the most complete shadowrun core book yet!

Considering the state of the business, I'd say SR4 is doing quite well, and I find the rules better in most points than any of the previous editions (I've played SR since it came out).

The only thing I've found it necessary to tweak is the skill hard caps - I simply raised them from 6(7) to 9(10) and it runs beautifully.

The only thing SR4 'lacks' is worldhistory between 2065-2070, and further rules and backstory on technomancers - the vehicle and drone department could be slightly more fleshed out too - but are any of these necessary for play? Not really.
Thanee
Yeah, the SR4 book has *everything* you need to play. More is always nice, but it's surely not necessary to play. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Backgammon
Judging by the influx of posters that came into the forums with 4th edition and the rapid pace of reprints, I think SR4 was a damn good move. But I may be wrong. Maybe Adam (assuming he has seen figures) will come by and enlighten us.
DireRadiant
Company still in business? Good move.

Company out of Business? Bad move.

Easy to figure out the answer.
mfb
well, in between, there's "company going out of business", "company not making as much as it could be", etcetera. i'm not saying FanPro's doing poorly, but "good move" is not pass/fail.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
QUOTE
A few of the books are available, but not enough to play.


Amazing, do you really believe this?

It depends on the type of gamers that you can find to play with. The folks in my group are used to showing up at a game session and going through books to find more rules to apply to their character.

With SR4 the way it is, there are a limited number of character builds for each position in the team: Combat, Astral, Social and Matrix-oriented. Also, most characters start off on day one with their most often-used equipment. We found that stunball was the best spell to use, the Ares Alpha is the best gun to use, the GM-Nissan Patrol-1 blows the doors off all the other vehicles, and the GM-Nissan Doberman is the best drone (and a bargain!), hands down. There's little to no upgradability for these aforementioned aspects without playing for at least a year in RL.

The SR4 book and Street Magic are without a doubt the best set of books I've seen, but there are limited options, and in absence of an amazing GM, the characters don't have a lot of places to go. Street Sams gradually upgrade their cyberware, but the costs increase exponentially so they get everything they expect to have early in the game. Same thing with mages, they have most of what they're going to have at character creation.

What makes the other games I play (WoD and DnD) so fun and durable is that there are places for moderately advanced characters to go without having to increase their XP/ Karma or money by an order of magnitude. We went through a few dozen SR sessions and the Adept and Mage initiated once, and the other characters saved up cash for Synaptic Boosters, but never got close.

Granted, some great RPing could easily make up for this, but I don't have any great RPers in my group, so I'm out of luck until a new book or two comes out.
stevebugge
Having played through all 4 editions now, I would say that on the whole 4th is doing quite well, including release rate. I remember waiting ages for new books to come out in Second Edition. The 4th edition core book is probably the best stand alone core rule book since First Edition, only with significantly less wacky dice systems. The line seems to be selling well. It is a significantly different game than 3rd edition, and right now seems less complete, but lacking around a decade of supplemental material can make it seem that way. The supplements that have released so far do seem to be a bit more solid than the ones put out for previous editions.

Then again the real test is: Do Adam's paychecks clear or bounce? grinbig.gif
Blade
From what I gathered, in France, the 4th edition was a really good move : a lot of 3rd edition players bought it and a lot of 1st or 2nd edition players who dropped the game a few years ago, or players who were interested by Shadowrun but never gave it a shot because of the "complex rules" went for the 4th edition too.
ThreeGee
QUOTE
The supplements that have released so far do seem to be a bit more solid than the ones put out for previous editions.


And properly bound! At least with this edition it doesn't look like the pages are going to start falling out after a couple of months.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Glayvin34)
With SR4 the way it is, there are a limited number of character builds for each position in the team: Combat, Astral, Social and Matrix-oriented. Also, most characters start off on day one with their most often-used equipment. We found that stunball was the best spell to use, the Ares Alpha is the best gun to use, the GM-Nissan Patrol-1 blows the doors off all the other vehicles, and the GM-Nissan Doberman is the best drone (and a bargain!), hands down. There's little to no upgradability for these aforementioned aspects without playing for at least a year in RL

Then I have to say your players may be used to going through books for rules, but they are not good at it. wink.gif

Have you seen a possession based mage who picked up channelling and uses a spirit to turn him in to an axe wielding death machine? A dual wielding gun bunny? An adept focused on wuxia? Someone abusing the Power Throw rules? A damage sponge? The spirit master?

Those are off the top of my head. To say that there are a limited number of builds means that your players haven't really explored the system.

The Alpha is the best gun for doing maximum dice of damage in a straight forward fight, perhaps.

But there are so many other ways to do it. If you're only taking on large groups of corpsec in relatively open areas, sure, you only need an Alpha. I've found that there are a lot of other circumstances that come up often, and the Alpha is often not a great choice. Personally, I'm rather more fond of a dual-wielding machine pistol expert. The Alpha may do 1-3d more damage per shot, but that's not necessarily the point. If I'm getting twice as many shots, or I'm able to use two short bursts when you can only do one? That makes a difference too.

There aren't a lot of *explicit* builds in the two books. But there are a ton of things you can key in on, and build off, and make really amusing characters. The marshmellow throwing adept, for instance, is amazingly useful.

eidolon
QUOTE (ThreeGee)
And properly bound! At least with this edition it doesn't look like the pages are going to start falling out after a couple of months.

I still get the "huhwhaaa?" look in my brain when I see people mention the binding. The only books I ever had trouble with were a few of the old FASA books (a core book and two others, can't remember what they were all the sudden, so they must not be used much). With my Fanpro SR books, I've never had a single page let go or anything of the kind.

I'd say maybe I'm just lucky, but I have friends that have had the exact same experience. Are other people just really hard on books? smile.gif
Thanee
My older SR books are all in good condition as well. smile.gif

But I still prefer hardcovers. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (the_dunner)
While new books may be slower to release than many diehards would like, the core rules has sold through 3 complete print runs in 18 months, with a fourth on its way to retailers. In the current marketplace, there's nothing from a comparably sized game company with that kind of sell-through.

That's not actually that useful a piece of information as one might think, without knowing the size of the print runs.

It's be interesting to see the numbers of individual units sold over time, especially compared to Third Edition sales rates.


-karma
Synner
QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
That's not actually that useful a piece of information as one might think, without knowing the size of the print runs.

It's be interesting to see the numbers of individual units sold over time, especially compared to Third Edition sales rates.

This has been mentioned several times before. Print runs are comparable with FASA and FanPro print runs for equivalent 3rd edition products and have sold out faster - this in a much slower market. Current slippage in the schedule has little to do with the success 4th edition has enjoyed; even with the meager releases of the past couple of years its rated by various distributors as one of the best selling RPG lines in the past couple of years.
Luddite
Honestly, I love the mechanics of 4th edition and the fact that FanPro included far more information in the Core book than usual. On the other hand, they may have shot themselves in the foot supplement-wise. In previous editions you needed pretty much all of the major supplements to play a character of the affected type, in 4th, not so much. This may equal smaller supplement sales, who knows.

Where I really think FanPro really dropped the ball is the plotline. Five years in the Sixth World is like two lifetimes, and I think that FanPro would have been better off using the huge horkin events that took place between the end of the SR3 "era" and the beginning of the SR4 one as grist for adventure and campaign supplements, rather than background. Just my nuyen.gif 2
knasser

I think it's hard to dispute the 4th edition being a good move. It's a big improvement on 3rd edition and both the core book and the two main supplements so far are extremely high quality.

But the question that matters is what's going to happen next?
ThreeGee
QUOTE
But I still prefer hardcovers.


Re. Binding, it was the 2nd edition hardcover core rules I was particluarly talking about. Pages started to detach within weeks of buying the bloody thing.
Demerzel
QUOTE (knasser)
the two main supplements so far

Are you holding out on us knasser?

SR4 + SM = 2
Runner Havens = Setting book not core supplement
On the run = Module
GM Screen = ? (Not core supplement though)

Have you got something we don't? wink.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 5 2007, 11:14 AM)
the two main supplements so far

Are you holding out on us knasser?

SR4 + SM = 2
Runner Havens = Setting book not core supplement
On the run = Module
GM Screen = ? (Not core supplement though)

Have you got something we don't? wink.gif


I'm counting Runner Havens.
Cheops
SR4 has got to be the second most complete core book I have ever seen in my gaming time (only RD's ED books out do it and even then you kinda need the 2 core books). There is more than enough with the Core book plus Errata and FAQ to keep a group going for a long time.

I was one of the most vocal proponents against SR4 when it first was announced but now I am behind it completely. It is a very good system and is winning many converts. I even had a club member who refused to play anything but SR3 recently agree to play and she seems to enjoy it.

The main problem with SR is that it is not the main money maker for the company. If it were then we'd see stuff coming out at a rapid pace. But the market for SR is much smaller than Battletech and Das Schwarze Auge (sp?) so it makes sense to focus on those two. There is a very small team working on all 3 games with a staff of freelancers they have to run herd on. It's all about priorities.

Honestly, SR was dead until SR4 came out. We're lucky to still have new products coming out IMO.
Kyoto Kid
...I have to concur that the Core Book is more complete than in previous editions. With the inclusion of Bioware and Initiation it does give players more options at the outset. Technomancers while an interesting concept (and thank you, they are not magic) still need a bit more tweaking to be playable as PCs. Hopefully this will be handled with the release of Emergence.

Where things fall a little flat is vehicles. Granted they couldn't put a comprehensive list in the Core Book (hopefully Arsenal will fix this). However, a representative of each of the following types should have been included:

Light truck (e.g. Toyota Gopher or Ford F-150)
Heavy truck/Tractor (e.g. Conestoga Trailblazer)
Light van (e.g. VW SuperKombi or Renault-Fiat Eurovan)
SUV (e.g. Land Rover)
LTA (Luftshiffbau LZ-2051)
Winged Aircraft (Lockheed C-260 Titan civilian equivalent)

Many of these are staple vehicles that would be used or encountered on runs. Without even a generic description for vehicle attributes, there is little to go on for working up new types.
Thanee
Yeah, Vehicles would have needed an extra page or two for more detailed descriptions and a few more models.

In most cases, stats for vehicles aren't needed, though.

Bye
Thanee
TW
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
Technomancers while an interesting concept (and thank you, they are not magic) still need a bit more tweaking to be playable as PCs.  Hopefully this will be handled with the release of Emergence.

Though focusing on technomancers, Emergence will not provide expanded rules or tweaks for technomancer PC's. Emergence is a plot book, similar in structure to System Failure or (to a lesser extend) YotC.
Any advice for the GM how to include or deal with technomancer PC's while running Emergence will be mostly roleplaying or character-development related. Expanded rules etc for Technomancers will be included in Unwired.
Kyoto Kid
...arrgh, that will be too many releases down the road. Looks like I'll stick with playing hackers for now.
evilgenius
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...I have to concur that the Core Book is more complete than in previous editions. With the inclusion of Bioware and Initiation it does give players more options at the outset. Technomancers while an interesting concept (and thank you, they are not magic) still need a bit more tweaking to be playable as PCs. Hopefully this will be handled with the release of Emergence.

Where things fall a little flat is vehicles. Granted they couldn't put a comprehensive list in the Core Book (hopefully Arsenal will fix this). However, a representative of each of the following types should have been included:

Light truck (e.g. Toyota Gopher or Ford F-150)
Heavy truck/Tractor (e.g. Conestoga Trailblazer)
Light van (e.g. VW SuperKombi or Renault-Fiat Eurovan)
SUV (e.g. Land Rover)
LTA (Luftshiffbau LZ-2051)
Winged Aircraft (Lockheed C-260 Titan civilian equivalent)

Many of these are staple vehicles that would be used or encountered on runs. Without even a generic description for vehicle attributes, there is little to go on for working up new types.

+1 on all that.

I find vehicle choices TERRIBLE. There's multiple models of every category of weapon (heavy, SMG, assault rifle, etc) but only one sedan, one van, etc.

It's kinda wack.

This brings up a point: I've played SR and SR2 but never SR3. How do the vehicle stats compare from SR 3 to SR 4? Could one purchase the SR3 rigger book and use it in the interim until Fanpro gets off their cans and releases more vehicles?

Would there be a lot of tweaking involved, or does it look like an easy conversion? I couldn't find any info on vehicle conversions here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=10441

Thanks.
imperialus
The stats are completely different. All rigger 3 will really give you is a ballpark number as it compares to vehicals that are actually in the SR4 book. For example Rigger 3 and SR 4 both have stats for a Jackrabbit so using that as a baseline you could branch things out. That's what I did creating a special forces tilt wing. I'll post it here again even though it's been posted before. This is based on the TR 55 Tilt Wing from Rigger 3 which is quite simmilar to the tilt wing found in SR4.
QUOTE


Ares: MR 55 SO

In the mid 2060's Ares saw a need for a long-range medium lift transport that could insert troops into areas normally only accessible by helicopter. A military version of the popular TR 55 series was the result; the MR 55 is larger, boasts 4 high torque Merlin XXI engines feeding two props, which allow greater speed and lift than the civilian version.  It is also armored against ground fire and carries a chin mounted Ares Vengeance machine gun in a small remote operated turret that has a 180* horizontal sweep and can decline up to 75*.  The turret contains a new generation gyrostabalization platform that is designed to hold the weapon steady on an unstable craft like a tilt wing aircraft.  Depending on the mission requirements a MR 55 can also be can be equipped with under wing rocket or missile launchers on disposable racks allowing it to serve as a gunship in support of the infantry. In addition the SO version carries a secure dedicated matrix node with a satellite uplink and a 10 KM range. The MR 55 was designed to carry a platoon of fully equipped infantry or a single squad of mechanized infantry while still maintaining a small landing footprint. The MR 55 can land in an area as small as an average urban intersection.
CODE

Handling Accel Speed Pilot Body Armor Sensor Avail  Cost
 -2      20/90   400    4   25   20      3     30R 950,000

The turret provides 10 points of recoil compensation.
Cain
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Demerzel @ Apr 5 2007, 06:27 PM)
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 5 2007, 11:14 AM)
the two main supplements so far

Are you holding out on us knasser?

SR4 + SM = 2
Runner Havens = Setting book not core supplement
On the run = Module
GM Screen = ? (Not core supplement though)

Have you got something we don't? wink.gif


I'm counting Runner Havens.

Dear gods, I wouldn't. It's effectively the Neo-Anarchists guide to Hong Kong. Seattle and the other areas are basically afterthoughts. As the Hong Kong splatbook, it's a solid piece of work. As a "core supplement", it falls so flat as to be laughable.

QUOTE
...I have to concur that the Core Book is more complete than in previous editions. With the inclusion of Bioware and Initiation it does give players more options at the outset. Technomancers while an interesting concept (and thank you, they are not magic) still need a bit more tweaking to be playable as PCs.

It's more complete than previous Shadowrun BBB's, but it's got nothing on the core books for GURPS or HERO for options. You start out powerful, but you can never really advance; d20 and D&D can start you anywhere you like, and you can still advance. (I'm playing in an epic-level game right now, where we were basically handed 21st level characters. And we're still planning for our next level up.) SR$ is lighter than previous editions, but it's still got nothing on Savage Worlds or other mid-crunch systems, let alone super-light systems like Wushu or Capes.

The strength of Shadowrun has always been the Shadowrun world. As Bull himself admitted, this was effectively the same thing as converting SR to d20. Which would make sense, from a financial standpoint; big enough changes will draw people in by force of sheer curiosity.
Wraithshadow
QUOTE (Cain)
It's more complete than previous Shadowrun BBB's, but it's got nothing on the core books for GURPS or HERO for options.

Isn't that akin to saying, "Sure, your address book is good- but the phone book has way more in it?"

Comparing to GURPS and HERO seems like you're not being fair. You might as well say that yes, a certain death-themed miniatures company has a lot of options, but has nothing on a block of clay.
Cain
Not really. The OP's question was about rather or not SR4 was a good business move. The only way of telling that is to compare it to other companies, and what they're doing. Both GURPS and HERO, to the best of my knowledge, are enjoying strong sales, and they're not that much larger than Fanpro in total staff. Both cases show that substantial changes probably weren't necessary; any new edition would have probably sold just as well.
Synner
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 10 2007, 05:49 AM)
Both GURPS and HERO, to the best of my knowledge, are enjoying strong sales, and they're not that much larger than Fanpro in total staff.

2 strikes in one sentence, you are improving.... Unfortunately just goes to show that you really have your finger on the pulse of the market. :sarcasm:
Superbum
I think a 4th edition was a good move but there are some little things that I find funny in the core book.

Parachute skill but no parachutes?
Cain
QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 10 2007, 12:25 AM)
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 10 2007, 05:49 AM)
Both GURPS and HERO, to the best of my knowledge, are enjoying strong sales, and they're not that much larger than Fanpro in total staff.

2 strikes in one sentence, you are improving.... Unfortunately just goes to show that you really have your finger on the pulse of the market. sarcastic.gif

Really? Why don't you post the numbers you have, so we can all take a look? proof.gif

Every time I ask a Fanpro insider for actual numbers, all i get is mumbles about "strong sales",, "better than everyone else", etc. Why don't you show us an actual comparison? With actual numbers?

[edit]Steve Jackson Games' in-house pdf publisher, posts actual numbers for its sales. We can extrapolate a bit from there, and backwalk their previous sales. So, we not only know that SJG is enjoying "strong sales", but we know what that actually means. I challenge Synner to do the same.
Eryk the Red
This is an amusing argument to me. Why should I (or any of us) care about the actual numbers? It has no effect on me how many other people are buying this stuff, except indirectly, as it affects FanPro's decisions to make further releases. I'm not an investor or anything. The only reason to cry out for sales numbers in this way is to be senselessly adversarial... oh. Hey. I think I'm on to something.
coolgrafix
This is none of my business, but that SJGames link you sent is not only useless as an overall indicator of their profit and loss, but also useless to help make your point. Plus it's old. What does "strong" mean these days, anyway?

You don't have to talk to many industry insiders to know that the gaming industry is tiny and in a poor state. I guess the good news is that this has seemingly always been the case. wink.gif The first crisis was Magic the Gathering. Folks said "Buh-bye" to RPGs for a while. Then there was the "d20 Boom/Bust," which took so much attention away from everything else that things still haven't settled down.

You hear stories from artists and other creditors at cons about not getting paid. It's always the same companies perrenially struggling to get out of the red. GURPS and HERO have the advantage of longevity and an installed base of old timers like me. I love HERO. But Steve Long has become the most long-winded, prolific writer since Gary Gygax for crying out loud. Fantasy Hero is like two inches thick. TWO INCHES. And it's packed with tons and tons of meta gaming material... theory on fantasy as a genre, blah blah blah. I still haven't found the section about actuallly making a Fantasy Hero character. wink.gif

All indications are that SR4 is one of the hottest properties in the industry right now, and that's great. But it doesn't mean a whole lot when everyone else isn't doing very well in the first place. =)
Synner
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 10 2007, 05:47 PM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 10 2007, 12:25 AM)
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 10 2007, 05:49 AM)
Both GURPS and HERO, to the best of my knowledge, are enjoying strong sales, and they're not that much larger than Fanpro in total staff.

2 strikes in one sentence, you are improving.... Unfortunately just goes to show that you really have your finger on the pulse of the market. sarcastic.gif

Really? Why don't you post the numbers you have, so we can all take a look? proof.gif

As several people have taken the time to explain (again and again) it is not FanPro policy to release sales to the public. Neither I nor any of the people I know are going to break with company policy.

QUOTE
Every time I ask a Fanpro insider for actual numbers, all i get is mumbles about "strong sales", "better than everyone else", etc.  Why don't you show us an actual comparison?   With actual numbers?

You've been told (several times) that print runs are comparable to the FASA equivalents and that recent releases have outsold their predecessors in the same period of time. I honestly don't care if you believe me or not. Information from any credible market source will back me up.

SR4 has in fact just hit its Fourth Printing and is still selling strong - which would be why we've sold out 3 full print runs. To use but one easy reference you've called upon before: SR4 has remained in the drivethrurpg.com Top20 longer than any small print rule book release and remains there almost 2 years into release (comparably Cyberpunk 3.0, released around the same time is now tracking in the 30s). A goodly portion of the Fourth Printing is already assigned to satisfy standing orders from clients who've sold out.

QUOTE
[edit]Steve Jackson Games' in-house pdf publisher, posts actual numbers for its sales. We can extrapolate a bit from there, and backwalk their previous sales. So, we not only know that SJG is enjoying "strong sales", but we know what that actually means. I challenge Synner to do the same.

You made a comment to the effect that the new editions of GURPS and Hero were doing well. I replied to that "the best of your knowledge" is somewhat off. In reply to that you produce a link to SJG figures dated from May 2006. Me? Well, I prefer to read the implications of this. Only 2 (3 if we're charitable) GURPS releases for 2007. Compare with what GURPS used to put out and tell me the line is still enjoying strong sales.

Hero 5 Revised is still working through its second printing (to the best of my knowledge and I'm a fan of the game) going on 2 and a half years. Note this is nothing to thumb your nose at in today's market, but compare that to pre-Fuzion Hero sales...
Demonseed Elite
Given the state of the RPG market right now, probably one of the worst Shadowrun mistakes (well, from the publishing side of things) is the fact that FASA and FASA Interactive split up the digital media rights. A number of RPG outfits are either making money off of licensing to video games (D&D, Warhammer) or are getting in bed with that market (White Wolf and CCP merger). Unfortunately, the print side of Shadowrun makes nothing off of any video games based on the world, nor can there really be any truly complimentary products between the print and video games without some serious lopsided renegotiations.
Cheops
I think that the strongest indicator that I have seen for the success of SR4 is this:

During SR3 I saw my FLGS reduce Shadowrun from front shelf with about a 16 book frontage to a measly 3-4 book frontage in the rear of the store. SR4 has not yet gotten back to the front but it has doubled space on the shelves and the owners don't look at you like you're a moron when you ask for the latest SR book.

Nim
Actually, I've wondered occasionally how much the hardback books helped at all with that, Cheops. A hardback book with nice production values is more likely to get a nice share of shelf-space from a store manager.

Now, enough people are buying online now that I'm not sure it really changes much, but still - sometimes perception is reality smile.gif
coolgrafix
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Given the state of the RPG market right now, probably one of the worst Shadowrun mistakes (well, from the publishing side of things) is the fact that FASA and FASA Interactive split up the digital media rights.

This wasn't technically a mistake, as the interactive IP is all MS was interested in at all anyway. Otherwise no deal and no retirement for the FASA guys.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (coolgrafix)
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 10 2007, 02:46 PM)
Given the state of the RPG market right now, probably one of the worst Shadowrun mistakes (well, from the publishing side of things) is the fact that FASA and FASA Interactive split up the digital media rights.

This wasn't technically a mistake, as the interactive IP is all MS was interested in at all anyway. Otherwise no deal and no retirement for the FASA guys.

Yeah, I know, but it does essentially leave Shadowrun out in the cold in an age where all the print RPGs are moving into the digital world.
Demerzel
Didn't they really only want BattleTech anyway? Seems like the interactive IP for SR was thrownin to not confuse the lawyers...
Denicalis
Well, I have a bit of a unique perspective on all this. I used to come to dumpshock pretty regularly back during the 2nd edition of SR. A little during the third, but not much. I haven't really played in years and years, and only recently got back into it. The 4th edition is an incredibly interesting shift. It opens up all sorts of different avenues, and the story is getting more in depth all the time. Which, at least for me, was always the strength of SR. I am seeing it get more push--albeit just a little--in game stores, and the more I get into the new rules, the more I can see why. I think the game is as good as ever, and the dice system is interesting and not at all hard to really get into. I haven't run a game with it yet, as my old team has been disbanded forever and I've yet to find a new one in my area, but in theory, I really enjoy it.
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