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> Did the UCAS ever fight a war?
limejello10512
post Apr 5 2007, 03:44 AM
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Near as I can tell they haven't. Did I miss one?
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Luddite
post Apr 5 2007, 04:06 AM
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Nope, they haven't had an out-and-out shooting war as of yet. Special ops aplenty, but nothing declared, with the tanks and the planes. After the Euro wars real declared wars seem to become passe.
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Cynic project
post Apr 6 2007, 01:14 AM
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Chicago?
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 6 2007, 02:08 AM
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The UCAS was declared in 2030.

In 2034, the Confederacy withdrew from the union by way of the results of a severely large pile of bodies.

In 2037, Japanese Imperial Marines landed in San Francisco and Californa seceded from the UCAS.

In 2038, Hawaiian chiefs gain control of a Thor Strike system and fire space-based mass drivers at the UCAS Pacific fleet, effectively gaining their independence by force of arms.

In 2055, a cult of Insect Spirit worshippers became the defacto owners of Chicago when they took up arms and ejected government officials and national military units by force. The government hires private contractors to detonate a nuclear blast in retaliation. The city of ten million people was under siege for almost three years and the UCAS regains control after launching a biological weaponry attack that nearly clears out all inhabitants of the city.

In 2059, the largest arcology in Seattle is taken over by a literal army of machines and brainwashed thralls of a self-aware computer program. Two years later, UCAS military were standing triumphant over the twisted bodies and burning wreckage of Deus' armed forces and the territory was claimed as battle salvage by the nation.

---

OK... the UCAS, like the United States before it, has not declared war in the 21st century. However, they have had no less than five armed confrontations involving the deployment of weapons of mass destruction that have resulted in the gaining or losing of territory and millions of people for the nation of the United Canadian and American States. The fact that they have never been "at war" is merely a diplomatic stance.

They like to classify building a wall around a 10 million person city and theen dropping a nuclear weapon on it as a "police action" but I don't think anyone outside the UCAS sees it that way.

-Frank
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Kyoto Kid
post Apr 6 2007, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Luddite)
After the Euro wars real declared wars seem to become passe.

...unless you are unlucky enough to live in the Balkans.:frown:
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Fix-it
post Apr 6 2007, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Two years later, UCAS military were standing triumphant over the twisted bodies and burning wreckage of Deus' armed forces and the territory was claimed as battle salvage by the nation.

I thought they gave it back to Renraku.

I'm sure they stripped it of as much usefull stuff as they could get away with, but gave it back nonetheless....
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Serial_Peacemake...
post Apr 6 2007, 02:28 AM
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Nope they took it. They general in charge of that operation, and current president of the UCAS is essentially extremely ruthless, and willing to screw over megas. Which it should be add since they are still alive probabely fairly bad ass in one way or another.
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Wraithshadow
post Apr 6 2007, 03:47 AM
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If I'm not mistaken (and I could be) California got kicked out of UCAS first, then when everyone started to grab portions of the state for themselves, California said, "Help Japanese people! Other countries keep showing up and claiming territory for themselves. Can you do something?"

Japan's response, "Why- don't mind we do. We claim this land for Spain! I mean, Japan!"
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 6 2007, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE (Wraithshadow)
If I'm not mistaken (and I could be) California got kicked out of UCAS first, then when everyone started to grab portions of the state for themselves, California said, "Help Japanese people! Other countries keep showing up and claiming territory for themselves. Can you do something?"

Japan's response, "Why- don't mind we do. We claim this land for Spain! I mean, Japan!"

Not exactly.

QUOTE (Neo Anarchist's Guide to North America)
When California withdrew from the UCAS in 2037, Japan backed it up with diplomatic recognition and hefty military aid. The leaders of the California Free State lived to rue that day, for the Japanese have  established so much influence in that region that California is nearly an Imperial client-state at this writing.


QUOTE (SR2)
Independence fever was contagious. Long isolated  from its UCAS parent, California also declared itself a sovereign nation in 2037. Immediately recognizing it as a sovereign nation, the powerful Japanese Imperial State followed up by landing troops there to protect Imperial interests from any possible economic disruptioons.


And by the way, the UCAS has had several other skirmishes and wars. From border raids and missile shots against the Sioux in 2043-2045 to a New Revolution Coup in 2065, the UCAS has not gone five years without a war of one kind or another since its founding in 2030.

-Frank
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MYST1C
post Apr 6 2007, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE (Fix-it)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Apr 6 2007, 02:08 AM)
Two years later, UCAS military were standing triumphant over the twisted bodies and burning wreckage of Deus' armed forces and the territory was claimed as battle salvage by the nation.

I thought they gave it back to Renraku.

Nope.
According to Runner Havens the liberation was followed by a long legal battle over the costs of the operation.
Eventually, when Renraku refused to pay the military they were thrown out.
In 2070 the Arcology Commercial and Housing Enclave (ACHE) belongs to the Seattle government while some parts (including the fusion reactors) are still controlled by the UCAS army.
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Wraithshadow
post Apr 6 2007, 01:03 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Not exactly.

QUOTE (Neo Anarchist's Guide to North America)
When California withdrew from the UCAS in 2037, Japan backed it up with diplomatic recognition and hefty military aid. The leaders of the California Free State lived to rue that day, for the Japanese have  established so much influence in that region that California is nearly an Imperial client-state at this writing.


QUOTE (SR2)
Independence fever was contagious. Long isolated  from its UCAS parent, California also declared itself a sovereign nation in 2037. Immediately recognizing it as a sovereign nation, the powerful Japanese Imperial State followed up by landing troops there to protect Imperial interests from any possible economic disruptioons.



QUOTE (Shadowrun 4th Edition p 29)
California levied the last of its secession threats in 2036, because then-President McAlister forced them to make good on them by kicking California out of the UCAS. As soon as all UCAS forces left , Tír Tairngire rolled in. They mounted a surprise attack in Northern California with infantry and air support supplemented with paranimals, combat mages, and allegedly two dragons, advancing as far as south of Redding. Th ere they stopped, set up camp, and demanded that all non-elves leave the area in thirty days. The response was, predictably, “To hell with you.” Guerilla resisters banded together and managed to push the Tir forces back to Yreka. Th e area between Yreka and Redding became a DMZ. But at the same time as the Tir’s assault, Aztlan rose up and took another bite out of the newly-independent state, striking north and capturing San Diego. Foreseeing a future that included more of this, California’s governor made the worst possible move and appealed to Japan for help.

The help sent was Imperial Japanese Marines, who took the kind invitation and grabbed up San Francisco in the name of protecting “Japanese lives and corporate assets.” Th is would have worse repercussions later. Meanwhile, California was now
CalFree, baby, and a little bewildered at its state.


Guess they changed things around a bit.
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 6 2007, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (Wraithshadow)
Guess they changed things around a bit.


Unfortunately no. That's Fastjack going off on a tirade about how he hates the CFS, which he does. Since it's all based on his personal viewpoint rather than an actual hitorian's view (let alone peer reviewed history or truly objective game text), it doesn't actually mean that the world is any different just because Fastjack went off on a tirade about something that contradicts previous writings.

I really wish that they hadn't done that. The hand-waving and hyperbole that have gone into California descriptions would lead one to believe that, for example, thousandss of cubic kilometers of material fell into metaplanar lacunae and the planet was therefore hit with earthquakes and tsunamis that would have been approximately 6 orders of magnitude larger than the Indonesian Tsunami of 2004.

That wasn't what happened, we know this because Seattle and Hong Kong are still standing and there are still corporations active in LA. But because everything for the 4th edition timeline relating to California has been thrown around with in-character rumor mongering rather than straight talk, what actually happened is straight-up unknown.

-Frank
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Kyoto Kid
post Apr 6 2007, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (SR4)
California levied the last of its secession threats in 2036, because then-President McAlister forced them to make good on them by kicking California out of the UCAS. As soon as all UCAS forces left , Tír Tairngire rolled in. They mounted a surprise attack in Northern California with infantry and air support supplemented with paranimals, combat mages, and allegedly two dragons, advancing as far as south of Redding. Th ere they stopped, set up camp, and demanded that all non-elves leave the area in thirty days. The response was, predictably, “To hell with you.” Guerilla resisters banded together and managed to push the Tir forces back to Yreka. Th e area between Yreka and Redding became a DMZ.

...hmm, I'll have to re-read the TTs angle from the sourcebook on this again.
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 6 2007, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (SR4)
California levied the last of its secession threats in 2036, because then-President McAlister forced them to make good on them by kicking California out of the UCAS. As soon as all UCAS forces left , Tír Tairngire rolled in. They mounted a surprise attack in Northern California with infantry and air support supplemented with paranimals, combat mages, and allegedly two dragons, advancing as far as south of Redding. Th ere they stopped, set up camp, and demanded that all non-elves leave the area in thirty days. The response was, predictably, “To hell with you.” Guerilla resisters banded together and managed to push the Tir forces back to Yreka. Th e area between Yreka and Redding became a DMZ.

...hmm, I'll have to re-read the TTs angle from the sourcebook on this again.

The Californian state government passed a resolution to recognize Tir Tairngire in 2036, and the Elves repaid the kindness by conquering Redding using magically augmented forces. During the battle, they were opposed by mundane California National Guard and the UCAS army did not retaliate.

The people of Northern California made the Elven positions around Redding untenable with guerilla tactics and improvised explosive devices and the Tir forces fell back North inside of a year. That's TT, pgs. 30-31.

That dovetails quite nicely with California seceding in 2037 from the United States, since it was still the "CNG" and not the CFS Army that the Tir was fighting in 2036. the failure of the UCAS military to get involved in the invasion of its territory by Tir Tairngire in 2036 will probably go down as one of the dumbest things that a President of the UCAS has ever done.

By essentially abdicating their role in that war, the UCAS gave California seccessionists an iron-handed grip on the political spectrum. Literally noone could make a good case at that point that the fifty million inhabitants of California would be better off staying as part of the union.

---

Of course, that brings up the question: why the hell would the UCAS fight for Seattle when they didn't fight for San Francisco, San Jose, or Los Angeles? All three cities are bigger and more conomically important (and can feed themselves).

-Frank
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Wraithshadow
post Apr 6 2007, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
---

Of course, that brings up the question: why the hell would the UCAS fight for Seattle when they didn't fight for San Francisco, San Jose, or Los Angeles? All three cities are bigger and more conomically important (and can feed themselves).

-Frank

Better coffee? :grinbig:
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fistandantilus4....
post Apr 6 2007, 06:09 PM
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President Colloton seems to be amping up , or attempting to, to go after the NAN nations. Mabe she wants forces on both sides. Long term planning?
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Pyritefoolsgold
post Apr 6 2007, 07:13 PM
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Because if they lose seattle, they lose their only port on the west, and with it access to Japan, china, russia, ect.
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fistandantilus4....
post Apr 6 2007, 07:30 PM
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And that's import tax dollars right there.
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Grinder
post Apr 6 2007, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold)
Because if they lose seattle, they lose their only port on the west, and with it access to Japan, china, russia, ect.

If they would have fought for LA and SanFran, they would still have 3 major ports on the Pacific.
Maybe politicians are able to learn? Scary thought....
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Cynic project
post Apr 6 2007, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (Pyritefoolsgold)
Because if they lose seattle, they lose their only port on the west, and with it access to Japan, china, russia, ect.

LA and San Fran are both bigger ports than Seatle.... Hell LA has two ports that are each bigger than Seattle. San Fran bay nearly has two that are bigger than Seattle...It really like the number 4 in terms of scale.
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fistandantilus4....
post Apr 6 2007, 08:27 PM
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Yeah but the lost those a long time ago. Back in the 30's. The UCAS can't move an army across the NAN to reclaim the CFS, and I don't think popular sentiment is going to be looking any better towards them, now that tthey have even more abuse to be resentful about. Can they really afford to lose another one?
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Grinder
post Apr 6 2007, 08:29 PM
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No, they can't.

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Kyoto Kid
post Apr 6 2007, 08:38 PM
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...which is why they will no doubt derail any secessionist movement in the Plex. Unless somewhere, somehow Hestaby's got other plans.

...letsee, Northern Crescent, TT, Seattle Metroplex, SS...?

...whooops.. conspiracy theorising out loud again...:grinbig:
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Rajaat99
post Apr 7 2007, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
a New Revolution Coup in 2065,

Was this in System Failure?
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fistandantilus4....
post Apr 7 2007, 04:35 AM
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Yup
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