Improved Invisibility, invisibility, How do they work? Options

[FriendoftheDork]

Hey guys, after reading the invisibility spells I am somewhat confused. I'm used to invisibility in D&D etc. where when you cast the spell no one can see you, thus they cannot target you without finding you with spells, hearing or scent (and pinpointing by hearing is exceedingly difficult).

In SR, all it says is that you become invisible to anyone who does not beat your threshold (hits), and that anyone attacking you recieve the -6 blind fire penalty.

But how can they attack someone invisible at all, unless that character is obvious in some other way (firing guns, attacking you in melee etc.)?

The situation that I have invisioned is that an NPC the party has a contract on is a shaman. His magic rating is only 2, so he's not THAT dangerous, but he can cast the spell and since they have no counterspelling the likelyhood of the PCs failing a Willpower (2) check is immense (the troll has WP 1!). If the party is unlucky and they all fail, they could risk the shaman stunbolting them every turn (force 4 at overcast with only 1 physcal drain!). Force 4 would require a threshold 2 Perception+Inituition check, which means that the PCs are likely of detecting spellcasting, but is this enough to pinpoint the invisible character (who really might be hundred yards away)?

My gut feeling tells me, that in order not to unbalance this spell (and risk the PCs taking it later), the invisible shaman should be autodetected when firing guns or in melee, and if they detect spellcasting they should also be able to pinpoint him enough to attack him. What do you think?

[Backgammon]

Use common sense, not D&D sense.

Someone is invisible. You don't know he's there. You can't attack him cause you have NO IDEA there is someone there

Someone is invisible. You know he's there (he made noise, muzzle flash, etc. You can shoot at him, but you have to more or less guess or extrapolate his position. +6 modifier.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Thanee]

Well, there are plenty methods to detect an invisible character, like a mage using Astral Perception, a spirit, ultrasound, Perception (hearing) if some noises are made, etc.

Of course, if none such methods are available, it might be possible for said shaman to remain entirely undetected while casting spell after spell on the runners. And while his attacks won't be super dangerous with just Spellcasting dice (+ 2 for Magic - 2 for Sustaining), 5 boxes of minimum damage, whenever he succeeds (which is not too hard against just Willpower), will quickly add up.

In this case, they should do the smart thing and seek cover (from LoS; i.e. look for a position with highly limited options to gain LoS, then fire blindly whenever a spell gets off, or use grenades), and improvise. ;)

Bye
Thanee

[eidolon]

Well, you could have the PCs make perception tests. Not sure what the mods would be in SR4, but in SR3 it clearly states that the attacker(s) suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense the target of the spell.

"The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses" (not vision)

This suggests that yes, they can fire wildly into the air and if they roll high enough (or enough hits, I assume, in SR4) then they can hit the target.

I've never been a huge fan of stuff like that though, so I slip perception tests in there to give them a chance to hear (or heck, sometimes to smell) the target, or to see reactions of the environment to the target (footprints after invis mage walks through a puddle, etc). They aren't always easy perception tests, but they get them. If they manage to get a success to notice the general location of the target, then they can fire with the blind fire penalty (which I may or may not adjust, depending on the info they're using to target him).

Keep in mind that one sammy with ultrasound vision is a damn good defense against the invisible. :cyber:

[Ravor]

Well I'm going to assume that this is for your Barrens game, so the probable lack of Ultrasound Countermeasures does make Invisablity more powerful then normal, however, if I remember correctly you have at least 2 Awakened Characters, and the mage at least has access to Astral Perception which also negates Invisiblilty, so have the mage act like a spotter, and give the rest of the team blind fire modifers based off his directions while he fires off his own spells.

However, I'd imagine that even in the barrens there are some low-tech defense against invisibility such as paint bombs and then watching for the foorprints, ect so I wouldn't worry about the spell being unbeatable.

[FrankTrollman]

A spell being cast is quite noticable even if is a direct mana spell. The perception (no specialty) test to note a Force 4 stunbolt is only threshold 2. If you really wanted to fuck people up you'd go invisible and then pop out a sound suppressed sub machine gun and skull fuck people with AP rounds. Or just skip the invisibility altogether and just not even be in the building and put a FAE charge on remote detnation or a timer behind the couch.

Which is a definite concern in Shadowrun. Things are really deadly, and people who have a better plan or the drop on their enemies have a strong tendency to win.

-Frank

[Thane36425]

I always ruled that Shadowrun invisibility was like an improved version of the Predator invisibility. Just how much better it was was a matter of the Force of the spell, and it was better in terms of keeping concealment while moving. If someone visually noticed an invisible character, what they noticed was the slight imperfections in the spell, just like how they would see the Predator. Spotting them didn't mean that the spell collapsed, rather than it just wasn't good enough to completely fool that particular observer.

As for defeating invisibility, there are many ways. Some have already been noted. A damp floor or standing water will show the footfalls on it with ripples and such. Gravel will crunch, light debris scattered on the ground will shift (better indoors where wind won't disturb it). Mist or fog, possibly light smoke too will show the invisible character as a hole in the cloud. Rain or snow will likewise reveal the invisible character as it strikes them and by the hole in the pattern.

I agree that firing wildly should really only hit if the GM rules it so. However, you can narrow the field of fire by setting up in a hallway with your reveal well away from doors. That way, if something invisible hits the tripwire or whatever, you can hose that section of the hall with fire, particularly from a shotgun, and you'd have a chance of hitting something. Outdoors you can do sort of the same. Have some characters lay down a barrage of suppressing fire while some others wait. Those others are posted in elevated, hidden locations where they can fire into dead zones of the supressing element. After a moment of suppressing fire, they fire into the dead zones and likely places of cover, which would give them a chance to hit. Those dead zones could also be booby trapped.

As for attacking while invisible. An invisible sniper firing from 300 yards away is nearly impossible to detect. My characters would get up close and personal sometimes and use a tranq dart delivered by hand to the neck or to the calf from under the vehicle the target was about to enter. To kill, just walk up and a double tap from a Slivergun to the back of the head.

[Kyoto Kid]

...splash grenades filled with dye are always nice.

Peppering the suspected area with Flashbangs and gas grenades can work, if not to at least to give the invisible mage & his buddies a few negative modifiers of their own to deal with. Keep in mind, for every invisibility spell the mage is sustaining he is taking a -2 to his casting DP. More than likely he is somewheres away from where combat would happen since he will be pretty much useless for anything else. Have a micro drone snoop around using olfactory sensors to sniff him out (Invisibility doesn't mask BO). Or, have your mage conjure a watcher or low force spirit. It detects another astral signature, you pretty much have found their mage. Just lob an airburst link grenade or two in that general direction. Holding up all those spells he (the mage) will be hard pressed to wage astral combat.

[ornot]

Really simple solution is to not give the shaman they're hunting invisibility. I'd be somewhat leary of throwing a completely mundane party (IIRC you did say you were only going to allow latent awakening) up against even a weak magic character. It probably wouldn't be hard for a shaman to develop a cult of personality among the down and outs of the barrens, giving said Shaman significant protection and power.

The Shaman's own worldview should play some role in determining his tactics. A shaman that reveres a trickster spirit is quite likely to use stealth or mind tricks, a warrior shaman is more likely to just pound on the PCs.

However, invisibility works just fine as written, and doesn't need monkeying about with. If the troll can't spot the mage with his Will of one, that's his own damn stupid fault for only buying one point of Will.

As has been suggested there are many ways the PCs can protect themselves from spells being cast at them, such as getting out of line of sight, or better yet, attack the shaman when he isn't invisible. It's all about the legwork, and if the PCs run in D&D style, they're going to get geeked.

As for automatic detection of spellslingers locations from casting perception tests, I feel that is a bad idea, and against cannon. Mana spells have no apparent effects on the physical plane, so I've always considered the perception test to detect casting to be related to some sort of otherworldly sensation of power. A character with a lot of experience or knowledge of magic might be able to pinpoint where the spell might be coming from and even the kind of spell. However, once the PCs realise there is an invisible spell slinger about they can still quite easily spray lead about in the hope of hitting something. In melee I would impose a penalty, but a lesser one, since an invisible character is still tangible. Bear in mind that with the sustaining penalty the mage is going to be a lot less effective in any sort of combat.

[Thane36425]

[Kyoto Kid]

...in SR 4 there are no spell locks. Only the mage might have invisibility up on a Sustaining Focus, but he would still be taking the negative modifiers for the other spells on his mates. Going Astral would be a big risk for him for even encountering a middling force spirit could spell big trouble. If he goes out, all the sustained spells (except the one on his focus) drop. That could be particularly "embarrassing" for the rest of his mates who suddenly "appear" to the oppos laying in wait.

I have also not yet brought up the topic of certain Paracritters (such as Hellhounds & even the ubiquitous Devil Rat) which have natural senses that are not fooled by Invisibility.

...getting better at all this anti magic stuff.

[Thane36425]

[eidolon]

[FriendoftheDork]

Ok guys, thanks for all the responses. This posts have helped me decide, as well as learn a few tricks vs invisibility (I never even heard of Ultrasound).

Anyway, I'd like to clarify a few points:

1. Raven, Ornot, I did say Latent Awakening, so yes none of the PCs have any magic rating. The Mage presents himself as one, and has the magic knowledge skills to back it up, so his knowledge should be useful against the mage, but yes I admit it's not exactly fair to deny the PCs magic and then let them encounter a Shaman.

2. Since this is a very low-level Barrens game, the party cannot afford all those nifty things. Sure, some liquid color and flour, but that's pretty much it. Drones? hah! Total I think the PCs have no more than 400:nuyen: or so.

3. Low willpower: Yes they (some) did min-max more than strictly necessary IMO, and I'm not going to babysit the low-will characters. Of course they only got 320 points to play with, so I can understand some stat dumping. I bet that the first few BPs they get (they won't get karma yet) will be used on willpower and such

4. Mission: The party decided to take a hit on the Shaman themselves, in order to get along with their closest gang, and make 1000:nuyen: as well. The Orc Shaman has a Rat mentor, magic 2 and spies on the party's allied gang for their enemy gang. He doesen't know the PCs will try to nail him unless they blunder, but he IS laying low, and even keeps a summoned unbound force 2 rat spirit on guard that will attack anyone coming close enough. Unless the Shaman is taken down in the first round (might not happen as the PCs could encounter the Rat spirit first), he will try to cast imp. invis and flee. After that, he could try to summon more spirits after the PCs get the first, or just pelt them with overcast Stunbolts. If he get's involved the combat (as opposed to taking potshots at the PCs invisible), he will probably fail his will check and flee.

The challenge is not only to survive the Shaman's attacks, the challenge is to kill/disable him before he runs off to the enemy ork gang and get a bunch of them to take on the PCs!

But then again, if it gets too hard the PCs can still return and do another of the jobs they've been offered.

[Thane36425]

[Jack Kain]

You only need the general idea of where the mage is to fill the area with suppressing fire from an automatic weapon. If they can't even get a hold of an AK then they shouldn't be facing mages.



Improved Invisibility has a few options getting around with out magic and even very little tech.

Say there inside a building or something. Setting off the sprinklers with a bit of fire can do wonders. The Shaman may be wrapping light around himself to make him invisible. But if its raining on an invisible man, I don't think it be that hard to spot where he was standing. He'd be a hole in the rain.

The old drop a bucket of paint might not work as the spell can simply encompass the paint to. But the spell can't do thing about the subject displacing water.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Fastball]

The blind fire penalty would be a function of shooting in a general area because you are unsure of what exactly to shoot at.

You could always have the players declare the general direction they are shooting (straight ahead, down the alley, over by that wall) and roll an attack with blind fire modifiers. This gives the players a chance to shoot the invisible shaman, but only if they pick the right direction + make a successful roll.

Also, if the shaman rolls a glitch on his ranged defense roll, let the players make a perception test to see the dust or hear his movements.

[Jack Kain]

We shouldn't discount that as his magic is only 2. Its quite possible that with a little edge the main street sam could spot him and blow him away.

How hard is it to resist a force 2 invisibility spell?

[Glyph]

[eidolon]

While it probably isn't "fair" to throw a grade 8 initiate at a group of low BP characters, it you never put them up against a mage you'd be depriving them of a more realistic game environment.

The opposition isn't always going to call you up before a run and say "Hey, yeah, we wanted to know if you had any magical support? No? Okay, we'll send our mages home for the day. Still planning on about 8 o'clock? Great, see you then."

I think what you're doing is fine.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Garrowolf]

One of these things that my characters used was a spell that they would create that was multisensory instead of single sense (vision). It would eliminate sound, heat, vision, smell, etc. Not that much different in terms of drain code and so useful.

The other thing to do is to create an illusion not only that you are somewhat invisible (predator effect) but that you are 10 ft to your right.

I did an illusion of a ghost house with only one safe corner, which my character was waiting in invisible.

[ornot]