Hey guys, after reading the invisibility spells I am somewhat confused. I'm used to invisibility in D&D etc. where when you cast the spell no one can see you, thus they cannot target you without finding you with spells, hearing or scent (and pinpointing by hearing is exceedingly difficult).
In SR, all it says is that you become invisible to anyone who does not beat your threshold (hits), and that anyone attacking you recieve the -6 blind fire penalty.
But how can they attack someone invisible at all, unless that character is obvious in some other way (firing guns, attacking you in melee etc.)?
The situation that I have invisioned is that an NPC the party has a contract on is a shaman. His magic rating is only 2, so he's not THAT dangerous, but he can cast the spell and since they have no counterspelling the likelyhood of the PCs failing a Willpower (2) check is immense (the troll has WP 1!). If the party is unlucky and they all fail, they could risk the shaman stunbolting them every turn (force 4 at overcast with only 1 physcal drain!). Force 4 would require a threshold 2 Perception+Inituition check, which means that the PCs are likely of detecting spellcasting, but is this enough to pinpoint the invisible character (who really might be hundred yards away)?
My gut feeling tells me, that in order not to unbalance this spell (and risk the PCs taking it later), the invisible shaman should be autodetected when firing guns or in melee, and if they detect spellcasting they should also be able to pinpoint him enough to attack him. What do you think?
Full Version: Improved Invisibility, invisibility
Use common sense, not D&D sense.
Someone is invisible. You don't know he's there. You can't attack him cause you have NO IDEA there is someone there
Someone is invisible. You know he's there (he made noise, muzzle flash, etc. You can shoot at him, but you have to more or less guess or extrapolate his position. +6 modifier.
Someone is invisible. You don't know he's there. You can't attack him cause you have NO IDEA there is someone there
Someone is invisible. You know he's there (he made noise, muzzle flash, etc. You can shoot at him, but you have to more or less guess or extrapolate his position. +6 modifier.
| QUOTE |
My gut feeling tells me, that in order not to unbalance this spell (and risk the PCs taking it later) |
Hmm, guns can be pretty powerful too, you can use them to kill NPCs. You should probably tweak them too so the PCs don't take them later either
| QUOTE (Backgammon) | ||
| Use common sense, not D&D sense. Someone is invisible. You don't know he's there. You can't attack him cause you have NO IDEA there is someone there Someone is invisible. You know he's there (he made noise, muzzle flash, etc. You can shoot at him, but you have to more or less guess or extrapolate his position. -6 modifier.
Hmm, guns can be pretty powerful too, you can use them to kill NPCs. You should probably tweak them too so the PCs don't take them later either |
Don't ridicule what you don't know. what you tell me is exactly how it works in that other game as well.
Unbalancing the spell would be to let PCs use it, then cast a bunch of other attack spells not originating from the character, with no way of pinpointing the caster.
Sure, if the invisible character makes noise or mussle flashes, you should be able to attack him, but the rules say nothing about when casting spells invisible.
Besides, there is a huge difference in knowing an invisible enemy is near and actually knowing which direction to shoot. Are you telling me they can shoot with -6 even if they have no idea where the invisible character is?
Well, there are plenty methods to detect an invisible character, like a mage using Astral Perception, a spirit, ultrasound, Perception (hearing) if some noises are made, etc.
Of course, if none such methods are available, it might be possible for said shaman to remain entirely undetected while casting spell after spell on the runners. And while his attacks won't be super dangerous with just Spellcasting dice (+ 2 for Magic - 2 for Sustaining), 5 boxes of minimum damage, whenever he succeeds (which is not too hard against just Willpower), will quickly add up.
In this case, they should do the smart thing and seek cover (from LoS; i.e. look for a position with highly limited options to gain LoS, then fire blindly whenever a spell gets off, or use grenades), and improvise.
Bye
Thanee
Of course, if none such methods are available, it might be possible for said shaman to remain entirely undetected while casting spell after spell on the runners. And while his attacks won't be super dangerous with just Spellcasting dice (+ 2 for Magic - 2 for Sustaining), 5 boxes of minimum damage, whenever he succeeds (which is not too hard against just Willpower), will quickly add up.
In this case, they should do the smart thing and seek cover (from LoS; i.e. look for a position with highly limited options to gain LoS, then fire blindly whenever a spell gets off, or use grenades), and improvise.
Bye
Thanee
Well, you could have the PCs make perception tests. Not sure what the mods would be in SR4, but in SR3 it clearly states that the attacker(s) suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense the target of the spell.
"The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses" (not vision)
This suggests that yes, they can fire wildly into the air and if they roll high enough (or enough hits, I assume, in SR4) then they can hit the target.
I've never been a huge fan of stuff like that though, so I slip perception tests in there to give them a chance to hear (or heck, sometimes to smell) the target, or to see reactions of the environment to the target (footprints after invis mage walks through a puddle, etc). They aren't always easy perception tests, but they get them. If they manage to get a success to notice the general location of the target, then they can fire with the blind fire penalty (which I may or may not adjust, depending on the info they're using to target him).
Keep in mind that one sammy with ultrasound vision is a damn good defense against the invisible.
"The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses" (not vision)
This suggests that yes, they can fire wildly into the air and if they roll high enough (or enough hits, I assume, in SR4) then they can hit the target.
I've never been a huge fan of stuff like that though, so I slip perception tests in there to give them a chance to hear (or heck, sometimes to smell) the target, or to see reactions of the environment to the target (footprints after invis mage walks through a puddle, etc). They aren't always easy perception tests, but they get them. If they manage to get a success to notice the general location of the target, then they can fire with the blind fire penalty (which I may or may not adjust, depending on the info they're using to target him).
Keep in mind that one sammy with ultrasound vision is a damn good defense against the invisible.
Well I'm going to assume that this is for your Barrens game, so the probable lack of Ultrasound Countermeasures does make Invisablity more powerful then normal, however, if I remember correctly you have at least 2 Awakened Characters, and the mage at least has access to Astral Perception which also negates Invisiblilty, so have the mage act like a spotter, and give the rest of the team blind fire modifers based off his directions while he fires off his own spells.
However, I'd imagine that even in the barrens there are some low-tech defense against invisibility such as paint bombs and then watching for the foorprints, ect so I wouldn't worry about the spell being unbeatable.
However, I'd imagine that even in the barrens there are some low-tech defense against invisibility such as paint bombs and then watching for the foorprints, ect so I wouldn't worry about the spell being unbeatable.
A spell being cast is quite noticable even if is a direct mana spell. The perception (no specialty) test to note a Force 4 stunbolt is only threshold 2. If you really wanted to fuck people up you'd go invisible and then pop out a sound suppressed sub machine gun and skull fuck people with AP rounds. Or just skip the invisibility altogether and just not even be in the building and put a FAE charge on remote detnation or a timer behind the couch.
Which is a definite concern in Shadowrun. Things are really deadly, and people who have a better plan or the drop on their enemies have a strong tendency to win.
-Frank
Which is a definite concern in Shadowrun. Things are really deadly, and people who have a better plan or the drop on their enemies have a strong tendency to win.
-Frank
I always ruled that Shadowrun invisibility was like an improved version of the Predator invisibility. Just how much better it was was a matter of the Force of the spell, and it was better in terms of keeping concealment while moving. If someone visually noticed an invisible character, what they noticed was the slight imperfections in the spell, just like how they would see the Predator. Spotting them didn't mean that the spell collapsed, rather than it just wasn't good enough to completely fool that particular observer.
As for defeating invisibility, there are many ways. Some have already been noted. A damp floor or standing water will show the footfalls on it with ripples and such. Gravel will crunch, light debris scattered on the ground will shift (better indoors where wind won't disturb it). Mist or fog, possibly light smoke too will show the invisible character as a hole in the cloud. Rain or snow will likewise reveal the invisible character as it strikes them and by the hole in the pattern.
I agree that firing wildly should really only hit if the GM rules it so. However, you can narrow the field of fire by setting up in a hallway with your reveal well away from doors. That way, if something invisible hits the tripwire or whatever, you can hose that section of the hall with fire, particularly from a shotgun, and you'd have a chance of hitting something. Outdoors you can do sort of the same. Have some characters lay down a barrage of suppressing fire while some others wait. Those others are posted in elevated, hidden locations where they can fire into dead zones of the supressing element. After a moment of suppressing fire, they fire into the dead zones and likely places of cover, which would give them a chance to hit. Those dead zones could also be booby trapped.
As for attacking while invisible. An invisible sniper firing from 300 yards away is nearly impossible to detect. My characters would get up close and personal sometimes and use a tranq dart delivered by hand to the neck or to the calf from under the vehicle the target was about to enter. To kill, just walk up and a double tap from a Slivergun to the back of the head.
As for defeating invisibility, there are many ways. Some have already been noted. A damp floor or standing water will show the footfalls on it with ripples and such. Gravel will crunch, light debris scattered on the ground will shift (better indoors where wind won't disturb it). Mist or fog, possibly light smoke too will show the invisible character as a hole in the cloud. Rain or snow will likewise reveal the invisible character as it strikes them and by the hole in the pattern.
I agree that firing wildly should really only hit if the GM rules it so. However, you can narrow the field of fire by setting up in a hallway with your reveal well away from doors. That way, if something invisible hits the tripwire or whatever, you can hose that section of the hall with fire, particularly from a shotgun, and you'd have a chance of hitting something. Outdoors you can do sort of the same. Have some characters lay down a barrage of suppressing fire while some others wait. Those others are posted in elevated, hidden locations where they can fire into dead zones of the supressing element. After a moment of suppressing fire, they fire into the dead zones and likely places of cover, which would give them a chance to hit. Those dead zones could also be booby trapped.
As for attacking while invisible. An invisible sniper firing from 300 yards away is nearly impossible to detect. My characters would get up close and personal sometimes and use a tranq dart delivered by hand to the neck or to the calf from under the vehicle the target was about to enter. To kill, just walk up and a double tap from a Slivergun to the back of the head.
...splash grenades filled with dye are always nice.
Peppering the suspected area with Flashbangs and gas grenades can work, if not to at least to give the invisible mage & his buddies a few negative modifiers of their own to deal with. Keep in mind, for every invisibility spell the mage is sustaining he is taking a -2 to his casting DP. More than likely he is somewheres away from where combat would happen since he will be pretty much useless for anything else. Have a micro drone snoop around using olfactory sensors to sniff him out (Invisibility doesn't mask BO). Or, have your mage conjure a watcher or low force spirit. It detects another astral signature, you pretty much have found their mage. Just lob an airburst link grenade or two in that general direction. Holding up all those spells he (the mage) will be hard pressed to wage astral combat.
Peppering the suspected area with Flashbangs and gas grenades can work, if not to at least to give the invisible mage & his buddies a few negative modifiers of their own to deal with. Keep in mind, for every invisibility spell the mage is sustaining he is taking a -2 to his casting DP. More than likely he is somewheres away from where combat would happen since he will be pretty much useless for anything else. Have a micro drone snoop around using olfactory sensors to sniff him out (Invisibility doesn't mask BO). Or, have your mage conjure a watcher or low force spirit. It detects another astral signature, you pretty much have found their mage. Just lob an airburst link grenade or two in that general direction. Holding up all those spells he (the mage) will be hard pressed to wage astral combat.
Really simple solution is to not give the shaman they're hunting invisibility. I'd be somewhat leary of throwing a completely mundane party (IIRC you did say you were only going to allow latent awakening) up against even a weak magic character. It probably wouldn't be hard for a shaman to develop a cult of personality among the down and outs of the barrens, giving said Shaman significant protection and power.
The Shaman's own worldview should play some role in determining his tactics. A shaman that reveres a trickster spirit is quite likely to use stealth or mind tricks, a warrior shaman is more likely to just pound on the PCs.
However, invisibility works just fine as written, and doesn't need monkeying about with. If the troll can't spot the mage with his Will of one, that's his own damn stupid fault for only buying one point of Will.
As has been suggested there are many ways the PCs can protect themselves from spells being cast at them, such as getting out of line of sight, or better yet, attack the shaman when he isn't invisible. It's all about the legwork, and if the PCs run in D&D style, they're going to get geeked.
As for automatic detection of spellslingers locations from casting perception tests, I feel that is a bad idea, and against cannon. Mana spells have no apparent effects on the physical plane, so I've always considered the perception test to detect casting to be related to some sort of otherworldly sensation of power. A character with a lot of experience or knowledge of magic might be able to pinpoint where the spell might be coming from and even the kind of spell. However, once the PCs realise there is an invisible spell slinger about they can still quite easily spray lead about in the hope of hitting something. In melee I would impose a penalty, but a lesser one, since an invisible character is still tangible. Bear in mind that with the sustaining penalty the mage is going to be a lot less effective in any sort of combat.
The Shaman's own worldview should play some role in determining his tactics. A shaman that reveres a trickster spirit is quite likely to use stealth or mind tricks, a warrior shaman is more likely to just pound on the PCs.
However, invisibility works just fine as written, and doesn't need monkeying about with. If the troll can't spot the mage with his Will of one, that's his own damn stupid fault for only buying one point of Will.
As has been suggested there are many ways the PCs can protect themselves from spells being cast at them, such as getting out of line of sight, or better yet, attack the shaman when he isn't invisible. It's all about the legwork, and if the PCs run in D&D style, they're going to get geeked.
As for automatic detection of spellslingers locations from casting perception tests, I feel that is a bad idea, and against cannon. Mana spells have no apparent effects on the physical plane, so I've always considered the perception test to detect casting to be related to some sort of otherworldly sensation of power. A character with a lot of experience or knowledge of magic might be able to pinpoint where the spell might be coming from and even the kind of spell. However, once the PCs realise there is an invisible spell slinger about they can still quite easily spray lead about in the hope of hitting something. In melee I would impose a penalty, but a lesser one, since an invisible character is still tangible. Bear in mind that with the sustaining penalty the mage is going to be a lot less effective in any sort of combat.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 7 2007, 02:53 PM) |
| Keep in mind, for every invisibility spell the mage is sustaining he is taking a -2 to his casting DP. More than likely he is somewheres away from where combat would happen since he will be pretty much useless for anything else. Have a micro drone snoop around using olfactory sensors to sniff him out (Invisibility doesn't mask BO). Or, have your mage conjure a watcher or low force spirit. It detects another astral signature, you pretty much have found their mage. Just lob an airburst link grenade or two in that general direction. Holding up all those spells he (the mage) will be hard pressed to wage astral combat. |
Unless they are using spell locks, but that would probably mean low-level Force due to karma costs.
The Team's mage could also astrally perceive to spot the invisible targets. They could then give directions like: behind the blue Americar, or lightpost 20 feet at 3 o'clock, or "Krauts in the open, by the supply crates." (Been playing too much Call of Duty again.) Shotgun fire into the area or grenades should do the trick. If nothing else, close fire would at least shake their confidence in their Invisibility and would give them pause.
...in SR 4 there are no spell locks. Only the mage might have invisibility up on a Sustaining Focus, but he would still be taking the negative modifiers for the other spells on his mates. Going Astral would be a big risk for him for even encountering a middling force spirit could spell big trouble. If he goes out, all the sustained spells (except the one on his focus) drop. That could be particularly "embarrassing" for the rest of his mates who suddenly "appear" to the oppos laying in wait.
I have also not yet brought up the topic of certain Paracritters (such as Hellhounds & even the ubiquitous Devil Rat) which have natural senses that are not fooled by Invisibility.
...getting better at all this anti magic stuff.
I have also not yet brought up the topic of certain Paracritters (such as Hellhounds & even the ubiquitous Devil Rat) which have natural senses that are not fooled by Invisibility.
...getting better at all this anti magic stuff.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 7 2007, 03:41 PM) |
| ...in SR 4 there are no spell locks. Only the mage might have invisibility up on a Sustaining Focus, but he would still be taking the negative modifiers for the other spells on his mates. Going Astral would be a big risk for him for even encountering a middling force spirit could spell big trouble. If he goes out, all the sustained spells (except the one on his focus) drop. That could be particularly "embarrassing" for the rest of his mates who suddenly "appear" to the oppos laying in wait. I have also not yet brought up the topic of certain Paracritters (such as Hellhounds & even the ubiquitous Devil Rat) which have natural senses that are not fooled by Invisibility. ...getting better at all this anti magic stuff. |
The sustaining focus was what I meant, sometimes forget the new terminology.
I meant the team's mage could spot the invisible opposition and report their positions to the rest of the team. Astrally perceiving would be a risk, but the mage should have his own spirits along for cover anyway. If the enemy mage was sustaining a number of Invisibility spells, then they would be the least dangerous, directly, of the opposition. Sue, killing the mage would drop the spells. but the mage would probably be out of the line of fire, since they couldn't contribute to the fight directly because of the penalties. So, having the team's mage call out the location of the enemies they could engage would work just as well.
Yes, some paracritters and plants are dual natured. The problem is, they also tend to not make great pets and are expensive and rare. Corps use them because they can afford them and have the power to tell the animal rights types to frag off or end up Hellhound chow.
Another possibility would be to cast a Barrier. A physical barrier would stop them, for a bit, but they could also see it and attack it. A mana barrier would be invisible but could disrupt the Invisibility spells as the enemy passed through it. That could reveal the opposition, or call out the enemy mage to attack the barrier. Given the penalties, they'd have a hard time of it and would have to be astral to do so. That's when if you spot him, you sick your own high Force (5 or 6) spirit on his projecting or perceiving form. He'd have to drop his spells quickly of be toast, thus making the enemy appear.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| If the troll can't spot the mage with his Will of one, that's his own damn stupid fault for only buying one point of Will. |
QFT. That kind of munchery (those BPs went somewhere) is just open invitation for spells in the face, as far as I'm concerned.
Ok guys, thanks for all the responses. This posts have helped me decide, as well as learn a few tricks vs invisibility (I never even heard of Ultrasound).
Anyway, I'd like to clarify a few points:
1. Raven, Ornot, I did say Latent Awakening, so yes none of the PCs have any magic rating. The Mage presents himself as one, and has the magic knowledge skills to back it up, so his knowledge should be useful against the mage, but yes I admit it's not exactly fair to deny the PCs magic and then let them encounter a Shaman.
2. Since this is a very low-level Barrens game, the party cannot afford all those nifty things. Sure, some liquid color and flour, but that's pretty much it. Drones? hah! Total I think the PCs have no more than 400:nuyen: or so.
3. Low willpower: Yes they (some) did min-max more than strictly necessary IMO, and I'm not going to babysit the low-will characters. Of course they only got 320 points to play with, so I can understand some stat dumping. I bet that the first few BPs they get (they won't get karma yet) will be used on willpower and such
4. Mission: The party decided to take a hit on the Shaman themselves, in order to get along with their closest gang, and make 1000:nuyen: as well. The Orc Shaman has a Rat mentor, magic 2 and spies on the party's allied gang for their enemy gang. He doesen't know the PCs will try to nail him unless they blunder, but he IS laying low, and even keeps a summoned unbound force 2 rat spirit on guard that will attack anyone coming close enough. Unless the Shaman is taken down in the first round (might not happen as the PCs could encounter the Rat spirit first), he will try to cast imp. invis and flee. After that, he could try to summon more spirits after the PCs get the first, or just pelt them with overcast Stunbolts. If he get's involved the combat (as opposed to taking potshots at the PCs invisible), he will probably fail his will check and flee.
The challenge is not only to survive the Shaman's attacks, the challenge is to kill/disable him before he runs off to the enemy ork gang and get a bunch of them to take on the PCs!
But then again, if it gets too hard the PCs can still return and do another of the jobs they've been offered.
Anyway, I'd like to clarify a few points:
1. Raven, Ornot, I did say Latent Awakening, so yes none of the PCs have any magic rating. The Mage presents himself as one, and has the magic knowledge skills to back it up, so his knowledge should be useful against the mage, but yes I admit it's not exactly fair to deny the PCs magic and then let them encounter a Shaman.
2. Since this is a very low-level Barrens game, the party cannot afford all those nifty things. Sure, some liquid color and flour, but that's pretty much it. Drones? hah! Total I think the PCs have no more than 400:nuyen: or so.
3. Low willpower: Yes they (some) did min-max more than strictly necessary IMO, and I'm not going to babysit the low-will characters. Of course they only got 320 points to play with, so I can understand some stat dumping. I bet that the first few BPs they get (they won't get karma yet) will be used on willpower and such
4. Mission: The party decided to take a hit on the Shaman themselves, in order to get along with their closest gang, and make 1000:nuyen: as well. The Orc Shaman has a Rat mentor, magic 2 and spies on the party's allied gang for their enemy gang. He doesen't know the PCs will try to nail him unless they blunder, but he IS laying low, and even keeps a summoned unbound force 2 rat spirit on guard that will attack anyone coming close enough. Unless the Shaman is taken down in the first round (might not happen as the PCs could encounter the Rat spirit first), he will try to cast imp. invis and flee. After that, he could try to summon more spirits after the PCs get the first, or just pelt them with overcast Stunbolts. If he get's involved the combat (as opposed to taking potshots at the PCs invisible), he will probably fail his will check and flee.
The challenge is not only to survive the Shaman's attacks, the challenge is to kill/disable him before he runs off to the enemy ork gang and get a bunch of them to take on the PCs!
But then again, if it gets too hard the PCs can still return and do another of the jobs they've been offered.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| The challenge is not only to survive the Shaman's attacks, the challenge is to kill/disable him before he runs off to the enemy ork gang and get a bunch of them to take on the PCs! But then again, if it gets too hard the PCs can still return and do another of the jobs they've been offered. |
Can any of them afford a second-hand sporting rifle and shoot it with some degree of skill? Hide in ambush and shoot from about 100 feet. That should knock the Shaman for a loop, long enough for the rest of the crew to rush him or whatever.
Failing that, rain some Molotov cocktails from the roof of the building he's walking under. Have your best throwers do that and the others rush him while he's trying to put out the flames. That would have the advantage of the characters of being able to at least follow the flames even if he manages to turn invisible.
Aside from that, if you miss the first attack, don't let him see who did it so the team can have a chance to avoid retaliation.
You only need the general idea of where the mage is to fill the area with suppressing fire from an automatic weapon. If they can't even get a hold of an AK then they shouldn't be facing mages.
Improved Invisibility has a few options getting around with out magic and even very little tech.
Say there inside a building or something. Setting off the sprinklers with a bit of fire can do wonders. The Shaman may be wrapping light around himself to make him invisible. But if its raining on an invisible man, I don't think it be that hard to spot where he was standing. He'd be a hole in the rain.
The old drop a bucket of paint might not work as the spell can simply encompass the paint to. But the spell can't do thing about the subject displacing water.
Improved Invisibility has a few options getting around with out magic and even very little tech.
Say there inside a building or something. Setting off the sprinklers with a bit of fire can do wonders. The Shaman may be wrapping light around himself to make him invisible. But if its raining on an invisible man, I don't think it be that hard to spot where he was standing. He'd be a hole in the rain.
The old drop a bucket of paint might not work as the spell can simply encompass the paint to. But the spell can't do thing about the subject displacing water.
| QUOTE (Thane36425) | ||
Can any of them afford a second-hand sporting rifle and shoot it with some degree of skill? Hide in ambush and shoot from about 100 feet. That should knock the Shaman for a loop, long enough for the rest of the crew to rush him or whatever. Failing that, rain some Molotov cocktails from the roof of the building he's walking under. Have your best throwers do that and the others rush him while he's trying to put out the flames. That would have the advantage of the characters of being able to at least follow the flames even if he manages to turn invisible. Aside from that, if you miss the first attack, don't let him see who did it so the team can have a chance to avoid retaliation. |
Afford a sporting rifle? Yeah, if they pool their resources they can get one in a few days. Still, getting within 100' without alerting the guarding Rat Spirit would be hard.
The Shaman lives in a secluded alley with somewhat high buildings on the side. They'd need to get inside the alley to take a shot at him. Of course, If the entire party gets a shot at him (even just with a remington 990, an APIV, and 2 Colt Americas), the mage will probably go down from that alone. No need for sniping.
They could probably afford an AK97 if they wanted, but they've opted for semi.automatic firearms for the now.
They also want to combine this job with another, relieving the orc enforcers of their "tax money" and redistribute it along the area's population, while endorsing their employer gang. This could get messy and even alert the mage... ah well
The blind fire penalty would be a function of shooting in a general area because you are unsure of what exactly to shoot at.
You could always have the players declare the general direction they are shooting (straight ahead, down the alley, over by that wall) and roll an attack with blind fire modifiers. This gives the players a chance to shoot the invisible shaman, but only if they pick the right direction + make a successful roll.
Also, if the shaman rolls a glitch on his ranged defense roll, let the players make a perception test to see the dust or hear his movements.
You could always have the players declare the general direction they are shooting (straight ahead, down the alley, over by that wall) and roll an attack with blind fire modifiers. This gives the players a chance to shoot the invisible shaman, but only if they pick the right direction + make a successful roll.
Also, if the shaman rolls a glitch on his ranged defense roll, let the players make a perception test to see the dust or hear his movements.
We shouldn't discount that as his magic is only 2. Its quite possible that with a little edge the main street sam could spot him and blow him away.
How hard is it to resist a force 2 invisibility spell?
How hard is it to resist a force 2 invisibility spell?
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| How hard is it to resist a force 2 invisibility spell? |
You need two successes (assuming the enemy mage gets two - he could always get just one, or botch it altogether). Even that troll with a Willpower of 1 has a chance, even if his Edge is also 1 (although if he has a low Edge then he FAILS at min-maxing 101). Other characters should have an even better chance.
Yeah, it may seem a bit unfair to throw an awakened character against a team with no awakened characters, but 1) They took this mission upon themselves, and 2) Even with 320 points, you can build a decent character. Not having magic or cyber only frees up more points to spend on Attributes, Edge, and skills.
While it probably isn't "fair" to throw a grade 8 initiate at a group of low BP characters, it you never put them up against a mage you'd be depriving them of a more realistic game environment.
The opposition isn't always going to call you up before a run and say "Hey, yeah, we wanted to know if you had any magical support? No? Okay, we'll send our mages home for the day. Still planning on about 8 o'clock? Great, see you then."
I think what you're doing is fine.
The opposition isn't always going to call you up before a run and say "Hey, yeah, we wanted to know if you had any magical support? No? Okay, we'll send our mages home for the day. Still planning on about 8 o'clock? Great, see you then."
I think what you're doing is fine.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| I think what you're doing is fine. |
Ok, thanks
One of these things that my characters used was a spell that they would create that was multisensory instead of single sense (vision). It would eliminate sound, heat, vision, smell, etc. Not that much different in terms of drain code and so useful.
The other thing to do is to create an illusion not only that you are somewhat invisible (predator effect) but that you are 10 ft to your right.
I did an illusion of a ghost house with only one safe corner, which my character was waiting in invisible.
The other thing to do is to create an illusion not only that you are somewhat invisible (predator effect) but that you are 10 ft to your right.
I did an illusion of a ghost house with only one safe corner, which my character was waiting in invisible.
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| While it probably isn't "fair" to throw a grade 8 initiate at a group of low BP characters, it you never put them up against a mage you'd be depriving them of a more realistic game environment. The opposition isn't always going to call you up before a run and say "Hey, yeah, we wanted to know if you had any magical support? No? Okay, we'll send our mages home for the day. Still planning on about 8 o'clock? Great, see you then." I think what you're doing is fine. |
I should clarify that I don't think throwing a group of mundanes against a magic character is entirely unreasonable. The Shaman presumably has a very limited selection of spells to go with his low magic rating, and may be tied to the area. That being said, I think spell slingers would be even rarer in the Barrens than elsewhere simply because any magical skill would be in high demand in rather nicer and safer areas.
It sounds as though FriendoftheDork has a fairly good handle on his Barren's setting, but is concerned about overpowering his NPCs. I don't think Invisibility is all that overpowered, but if that is a concern it would be easy enough to dop that spell from the shaman's known spells.
It might be worthwhile allowing the option for the PCs to go talk to the shaman. They might be able to convince him to swap sides, with the right incentive.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork) |
| the troll has WP 1! |
The troll is going to die. And quite frankly, probably deserves to.
With a will of 1 you could probably convince him to change sides with a candy bar and nice smile!
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||
The troll is going to die. And quite frankly, probably deserves to. |
The rationale is that characters with weaknesses deserve to die?
Why thank you, but I'd rather not.
And yeah he's not hard to convince, his usual reply to his comrades is "ok".
Basically he knows how to roleplay a weak-willed character. And given his strength, that is really a frightening thing.
| QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 8 2007, 01:53 PM) | ||||
The rationale is that characters with weaknesses deserve to die? |
The rationale is that the player created a character with such a glaring weakness that the only way he's realistically going to get by is GM-coddling. And GM-coddling is unfair to those players that created more balanced characters.
I'm not there. I'm not in your game. Maybe he's a very good role-player and having fun with this character. But when a character is created with such an outrageous dump-stat, there's a large possibility that the player has done it in order to maximise points in some other area(s). This is generally bad for the realism of the game because you get characters that are purely focused on meta-game ends (such as killing people or absorbing damage) when a realistic character would require a broader range to be a functioning individual in the world.
I said probably deserves to die because with a stat like that, the player has probably min-maxed the character (badly, however) in an unrealistic fashion. This may not be the case and if not, great. But I said the troll is going to die, because he is. The first scientologist recruiter that happens along will sign him for lifelong membership with a single pamphlet. And one mage with a manabolt will crumple him like toilet paper. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. He or she is living on borrowed time.
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||||||
The rationale is that the player created a character with such a glaring weakness that the only way he's realistically going to get by is GM-coddling. And GM-coddling is unfair to those players that created more balanced characters. I'm not there. I'm not in your game. Maybe he's a very good role-player and having fun with this character. But when a character is created with such an outrageous dump-stat, there's a large possibility that the player has done it in order to maximise points in some other area(s). This is generally bad for the realism of the game because you get characters that are purely focused on meta-game ends (such as killing people or absorbing damage) when a realistic character would require a broader range to be a functioning individual in the world. I said probably deserves to die because with a stat like that, the player has probably min-maxed the character (badly, however) in an unrealistic fashion. This may not be the case and if not, great. But I said the troll is going to die, because he is. The first scientologist recruiter that happens along will sign him for lifelong membership with a single pamphlet. And one mage with a manabolt will crumple him like toilet paper. I'm sorry to say it, but it's true. He or she is living on borrowed time. |
I am coddling him sort of, as I am coddling the whole group since they are ALOT weaker than usual. Will they die if they try to go shadowrunning now? YES. Will they die when doing small time work for the local gang? Not necessarily.
And I don't understand how you think it unrealistic for a person to have willpower 1, after all there are alot of sheep out there. WP 1 is a weakness just as Body 1 would be. The party's thief has only body 2, which makes him almost as vulnerable to physical damage as the Troll is to spells and stuff. (and lets face it, that happens alot more often in this game than spellcasting. ).
I'm pretty sure that as he earns more BPs and get more experienced, he's going to increase his willpower. Perhaps after encountering this mage and realizing how bad WP 1 is?
Ok first off, I read your war-story, and it sounds pretty good, however I disagree with the idea of coddling the party at all, sure they are of a lower power level then normal, but you've already done your job by placing them in a lower powered campaign setting, never forget that life in the barrens is hard, dirty, and above all, short.
*Edit*
Plus, remember that min-maxing in a lower power setting kind-of destroys the entire point of even bothering with lowering the power setting. If anything, I'd be slightly offended if one of my players agreed to play with a lower power level and then preceeded to try to min-max their way to outragous strength.
*Edit*
Plus, remember that min-maxing in a lower power setting kind-of destroys the entire point of even bothering with lowering the power setting. If anything, I'd be slightly offended if one of my players agreed to play with a lower power level and then preceeded to try to min-max their way to outragous strength.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Ok first off, I read your war-story, and it sounds pretty good, however I disagree with the idea of coddling the party at all, sure they are of a lower power level then normal, but you've already done your job by placing them in a lower powered campaign setting, never forget that life in the barrens is hard, dirty, and above all, short. |
Ok to clarify when I say coddling I mean that their first encounter was not 10 gangers with Ak-97 trying to kill them. Does these gangers exist in the setting? Sure, but they have better things to do in this setting.
That is not to say that the Barrens is a dangerous place to be. If the runners didn't have some combat ability they would be at least beaten the crap out of, if not downright killed. Several of them have already been robbed. And if the runners do something stupid like turn on their employer they would probably be dead. The Vatos for once have about 30 members, and even have some elite ones in armor jackets and assault rifles as well as 2 trolls with combat axes. If they wanted the PCs dead, they would be, no question about it. But why kill what you can use?
Once they start messing with the Blackrock clan however, they could be in a tight spot if they're not careful. That gang is larger than the Vatos (around 50 members), are composed of orcs (which face it are alot better than humans in combat), and are often on combat drugs. Their only weakness is that they prefer fighting hand to hand using their superior strenght, even though each member at least packs a streetline special.
Sooner or later they will end up in a situation where only luck (Edge) will keep them from getting geeked.
BTW later on I plan to reveal the reason these gangs are fighting (other than racism), as their are corp or mafia interest behind the conflict... hmmm but how and why? Any input appriciated.
Well, it sounds to me like once they start messing with the or<==K==>s (Sorry, pet peeve of mine that I had to get out of my system.) they are basically setting themselves up for membership in the human gang, so I think I'd let them work their way up in the ranks and uncover hints of the interfernce that way.
If the WP 1 was taken to be a min-maxer, then the troll deserves to die. If it was taken because the player thought it would be a fun concept to roleplay, then death is not deserved.
I see a weak-willed character as the type who blows his paycheck on one night at the bar or casino, and who can't hold a steady job because some days he just doesn't fell like going to work. Even so, there are still options for roleplaying several situations.
Scientologist recruiting:
1. The follower thinks scientology is the greatest idea ever and becomes a true believer, until the local mormon missionary comes around.
2. The character doesn't care about scientology, but signs up just to get the guy to go away. The new member information ends up in the trash, right next to the Book of Mormon, and Jesus for Jews pamphlet.
3. The highly unmotivated character doesn't care enough to even answer the door, because that would require him to get out of the chair. If the recruiter is persistent enough, he'll probably find himself confronted by a really pissed off troll screaming "What the drek do you want?"
Humanis Confrontation
1. The character with low self-esteem believes he is scum. He takes every insult to heart and ends up cryin back home, wishing he were dead, and hating himself for not even having the courage to kill himself.
2. The character with no control snaps after the first few insults. He doesn't care about the Lone Star patrol across the street, he just wants these punks to shut up and wades in swinging.
I do tend to agree that the character will need to toughen up a bit if he wants to survive in the shadows, but maybe those first few runs will be just what the character needs to build some self-esteem or to give him some new goals that makes life worth fighting for.
I see a weak-willed character as the type who blows his paycheck on one night at the bar or casino, and who can't hold a steady job because some days he just doesn't fell like going to work. Even so, there are still options for roleplaying several situations.
Scientologist recruiting:
1. The follower thinks scientology is the greatest idea ever and becomes a true believer, until the local mormon missionary comes around.
2. The character doesn't care about scientology, but signs up just to get the guy to go away. The new member information ends up in the trash, right next to the Book of Mormon, and Jesus for Jews pamphlet.
3. The highly unmotivated character doesn't care enough to even answer the door, because that would require him to get out of the chair. If the recruiter is persistent enough, he'll probably find himself confronted by a really pissed off troll screaming "What the drek do you want?"
Humanis Confrontation
1. The character with low self-esteem believes he is scum. He takes every insult to heart and ends up cryin back home, wishing he were dead, and hating himself for not even having the courage to kill himself.
2. The character with no control snaps after the first few insults. He doesn't care about the Lone Star patrol across the street, he just wants these punks to shut up and wades in swinging.
I do tend to agree that the character will need to toughen up a bit if he wants to survive in the shadows, but maybe those first few runs will be just what the character needs to build some self-esteem or to give him some new goals that makes life worth fighting for.
| QUOTE |
| Really simple solution is to not give the shaman they're hunting invisibility. I'd be somewhat leary of throwing a completely mundane party (IIRC you did say you were only going to allow latent awakening) up against even a weak magic character. |
hi, im here to insert a shameless plug for my Witch Hunt game in Welcome to the Shadows where we do just this. woo!
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||
The troll is going to die. And quite frankly, probably deserves to. |
...keep in mind not only are the BP point totals lower, but so is the BP cap to attributes (at 320BP this would only leave a maximum 160 for the basic attributes). Yes, point shaving would be an issue to physically survive, particularly in the barrens.
For KK4.4, to balance her attributes out (BTW none, including her Magic, were at 6) with a good Willpower and OK Charisma, required a bit of BP shaving somewhere along the line. I chose Logic since it also worked in with her backstory. Keep in mind, adepts (at least good adepts IMO) don't necessarily have the luxury of physical augmentation though implants so (I consider that even more of a serious munch offence than BP shaving). Yes, there are the Increased Attribute powers, but these are fairly expensive (1PP ea). Seeing that 60% of the character's BPs are taken up by reflex boost, this leaves little for other abilities. True she could take one less level of Reflexes, but with a combat oriented character, speed is basically survival.
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| That being said, I think spell slingers would be even rarer in the Barrens than elsewhere simply because any magical skill would be in high demand in rather nicer and safer areas. |
Being in the barrens wouldn't mean there aren't any mages. Ork street shaman of Rat. Think that looks good on a resume? Nicer and safer doesn't want the dirty, scummy ork trash, regardless of said ork's ability to cast levitate at force three. Not to mention that someone growing up in the Barrens might not even know that there's "better" to be had just on the basis of being magical.
Not arguing really, I just don't see the barrens having less awakened per capita than anywhere else, at least not on the basis that "it's the barrens".
(Actually, that might make a neat little arc in a campaign; meeting a "scummy" street shaman and helping him/her out of the Barrens by hooking him/her up with magical work, etc. Of course, for the proper SR feel, that person has to either come back to betray the PCs or be killed by another group of runners pulling a different job against the corp that the former street shaman now works for. )
Or that the runners themselves are hired/forced (For those groups that don't believe that the only reason you don't sell your own mother into slavery is because its more profitable to rent her.) to geek the shaman because they can get close enough to pull the job off.
| QUOTE (Fastball) |
| Humanis confrontation 2. The character with no control snaps after the first few insults. He doesn't care about the Lone Star patrol across the street, he just wants these punks to shut up and wades in swinging. I do tend to agree that the character will need to toughen up a bit if he wants to survive in the shadows, but maybe those first few runs will be just what the character needs to build some self-esteem or to give him some new goals that makes life worth fighting for. |
This is exactly what happened during play. The Troll character was sitting behind reinforced glass at the security stand in the Quick-e... erhh, Stuffer Shack. Both he and the Elf were perfectly safe as they Humanis scum couldn't touch them.
But as soon as the humanis started throwing insults at Trog he immedeately went out of his security booth and the fight was on.
Of course, he WAS tough enough physically to take on 3 members alone, intimidate 2 others, while the remaining 2 were scared off by the Elf who had an Ares Predator sticking out of a window in the counter security glass wall.
Ravor: That description sounds very much like this team. Trying to get this Shaman to work for a corp probably isn't profitable enough (and these guys need money NOW).
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Or that the runners themselves are hired/forced (For those groups that don't believe that the only reason you don't sell your own mother into slavery is because its more profitable to rent her.) to geek the shaman because they can get close enough to pull the job off. |
Evyll.
| QUOTE (eidolon) | ||
Being in the barrens wouldn't mean there aren't any mages. Ork street shaman of Rat. Think that looks good on a resume? Nicer and safer doesn't want the dirty, scummy ork trash, regardless of said ork's ability to cast levitate at force three. Not to mention that someone growing up in the Barrens might not even know that there's "better" to be had just on the basis of being magical. Not arguing really, I just don't see the barrens having less awakened per capita than anywhere else, at least not on the basis that "it's the barrens". (Actually, that might make a neat little arc in a campaign; meeting a "scummy" street shaman and helping him/her out of the Barrens by hooking him/her up with magical work, etc. Of course, for the proper SR feel, that person has to either come back to betray the PCs or be killed by another group of runners pulling a different job against the corp that the former street shaman now works for. ) |
I did say rarer, and not 'there aren't any'. Yes, those spell slingers you get in the barrens are going to be those that follow 'unhygienic' totems like rat or are, for whatever reason, undesirable by the corps. But I really don't think you would find the same number of awakened in the barrens as elsewhere.
Consider it like the 'braindrain' apparent in academia. Among those that awaken in the barrens are going to be those that are employable, and they are going to leave. The magicians you find in the barrens are going to be the ones who either won't or can't get employment elsewhere, but that won't be the entirety of those that do awaken.
I am far more brutal with invisibility in my campaigns.
It's an illusion, not a manipulation. They didn't actually go invisible, they merely tricked your mind into thinking they aren't actually there. Therefore if you try splashing the area with paint you will see it hit the ground (the caster still gets hit but you do not see that) or even setting off a sprinkler system will be pointless as you just see the water hitting the ground like normal (even though the caster is getting wet). You FAILED the check and now your mind is at the whim of their illusion and you cannot find them. Even if the caster were to shoot you or cast a spell on you while invisible you could not see them nor would these actions cause the casters invisibility to drop (yet you can still hear these actions taking place).
Furthermore, I don't allow Improved Invisibility in my game. It doesn't sit too well with me. How does an illusion spell affect things like remote cameras or vehicle sensors? It is magic and magic doesn't mesh well with technology.
So, in my games:
Can technology (like cybereyes or goggles) help you see someone using invisibility? No, you are within line of effect and have failed the willpower check and can no longer see the caster regardless of any actions you take. In essence, you eyes see the caster but your mind does not.
Can an invisible caster be seen via a vehicle's sensors or remote camera? Yes, you are not within line of effect and illusion effects cannot affect technology.
This doesn't prevent you from having any options for attack though. If you saw a mage go invisible you will of course think they are still around since you know they didn't teleport or some bullshit so you can still attack the area they were last at taking a -6 penalty on the roll (or hell, throw a grenade from that matter). If you hit the caster and they keep the spell sustained, you will see no blood and you will see the bullet(s) travel past where the caster was standing ending up in a wall or some other object further down (or your melee swing will continue through where the caster was standing as if nothing was there). The caster can still take damage but they will also stay completely invisible.
Of course, you don't have to work invisibility like I do. I just thought I would offer you a few more thoughts on how it could work.
It's an illusion, not a manipulation. They didn't actually go invisible, they merely tricked your mind into thinking they aren't actually there. Therefore if you try splashing the area with paint you will see it hit the ground (the caster still gets hit but you do not see that) or even setting off a sprinkler system will be pointless as you just see the water hitting the ground like normal (even though the caster is getting wet). You FAILED the check and now your mind is at the whim of their illusion and you cannot find them. Even if the caster were to shoot you or cast a spell on you while invisible you could not see them nor would these actions cause the casters invisibility to drop (yet you can still hear these actions taking place).
Furthermore, I don't allow Improved Invisibility in my game. It doesn't sit too well with me. How does an illusion spell affect things like remote cameras or vehicle sensors? It is magic and magic doesn't mesh well with technology.
So, in my games:
Can technology (like cybereyes or goggles) help you see someone using invisibility? No, you are within line of effect and have failed the willpower check and can no longer see the caster regardless of any actions you take. In essence, you eyes see the caster but your mind does not.
Can an invisible caster be seen via a vehicle's sensors or remote camera? Yes, you are not within line of effect and illusion effects cannot affect technology.
This doesn't prevent you from having any options for attack though. If you saw a mage go invisible you will of course think they are still around since you know they didn't teleport or some bullshit so you can still attack the area they were last at taking a -6 penalty on the roll (or hell, throw a grenade from that matter). If you hit the caster and they keep the spell sustained, you will see no blood and you will see the bullet(s) travel past where the caster was standing ending up in a wall or some other object further down (or your melee swing will continue through where the caster was standing as if nothing was there). The caster can still take damage but they will also stay completely invisible.
Of course, you don't have to work invisibility like I do. I just thought I would offer you a few more thoughts on how it could work.
| QUOTE (Superbum) |
| Of course, you don't have to work invisibility like I do. |
It's a good thing.
FOTD,
Remember that sustaining a spell is either a -2 dice penalty to all other actions, or that it's going to be using the service of the "rat spirit". So if he casts imp invis, he'll be trying to cast his whateverbolts at -2 dice.
If the shaman has a sustaining focus, then he probably isn't from the barrens since they cost quite a bit. They are also limited to the force of spell they can hold, and I don't think that you can bind a focus higher than the characters magic rating.
Remember that sustaining a spell is either a -2 dice penalty to all other actions, or that it's going to be using the service of the "rat spirit". So if he casts imp invis, he'll be trying to cast his whateverbolts at -2 dice.
If the shaman has a sustaining focus, then he probably isn't from the barrens since they cost quite a bit. They are also limited to the force of spell they can hold, and I don't think that you can bind a focus higher than the characters magic rating.
I don't actually have an issue with your description or use of invisibility, Superbum. In fact it makes a lot more sense intuitively. Personally I think they introduced improved invisibility in response to complaints that it wouldn't work on cameras. The same goes for the mask spell.
But then they were stuck with trying to explain how a Physical illusion would make someone disappear from sight... which is somewhat trickier to justify. Still, this is not the place to discuss it, as there are already innumerable threads on the subject (resurrect the invisible flashlight thread if you must).
My point is mostly that if you were to hit an invisible character with a melee attack you would feel the blade/fist/whatever connect with the target, as invisible characters remain tangible. Of course if they were smart they'd move, but should they stay in the same place I'd grant a bonus to the attacker, offsetting the -6 dice to -4 or so.
But then they were stuck with trying to explain how a Physical illusion would make someone disappear from sight... which is somewhat trickier to justify. Still, this is not the place to discuss it, as there are already innumerable threads on the subject (resurrect the invisible flashlight thread if you must).
My point is mostly that if you were to hit an invisible character with a melee attack you would feel the blade/fist/whatever connect with the target, as invisible characters remain tangible. Of course if they were smart they'd move, but should they stay in the same place I'd grant a bonus to the attacker, offsetting the -6 dice to -4 or so.
Lets recall his dump stat is will power, NOT charisma or Logic, THOSE are dump stats for Street Samurai Trolls.
Super, there are two forms of invisibility,
Standard which works as you describe, though few would take it to your extreme.
By your standards if they shot an arrow and impaled the invisible target. (the mage can make others invisible). They'd think the arrow was what stuck in the wall? on the floor?
Of course a remote camera option can be a smartgun. I don't think a few fingers should be enough for line of sight
BY RAW, Invisibility never effects hearing or other senses. The sound of a bullet hitting a person is very different then hitting a wall. Just as the character should feel his weapon hit something in mid air.
"The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch,
etc.)"
Remember the more brutal you are with Invisibility, the easier the PC's turn the tables on you.
Improved Invisibility is a physical illusion, It effects technology, because it actually bends light around you making you invisible.
They still need an object resistance test. You'd need 4 hits to beat a drone. Well actually its 4+ hits for a drone so you could easily have a high military security drone that requires 6 hits.
Remember there are two types of Illusions mana based that effect the mind and physical illusions which are quasi real.
Hell you resist Improved Invisibility with Intuition instead of will power.
Shooting invisible characters is already fairly brutal
-6 penalty the smartgun is likely useless and its skill+intuition instead of agility.
Going from 18 dice to 8 is bad enough.
Some other options can be just peek around corners with a smartgun and hope the mage doesn't spot. And remember "target has partial over" offers a -4 penalty this applies to spells just as sell as guns.
Super, there are two forms of invisibility,
Standard which works as you describe, though few would take it to your extreme.
By your standards if they shot an arrow and impaled the invisible target. (the mage can make others invisible). They'd think the arrow was what stuck in the wall? on the floor?
Of course a remote camera option can be a smartgun. I don't think a few fingers should be enough for line of sight
BY RAW, Invisibility never effects hearing or other senses. The sound of a bullet hitting a person is very different then hitting a wall. Just as the character should feel his weapon hit something in mid air.
"The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch,
etc.)"
Remember the more brutal you are with Invisibility, the easier the PC's turn the tables on you.
Improved Invisibility is a physical illusion, It effects technology, because it actually bends light around you making you invisible.
They still need an object resistance test. You'd need 4 hits to beat a drone. Well actually its 4+ hits for a drone so you could easily have a high military security drone that requires 6 hits.
Remember there are two types of Illusions mana based that effect the mind and physical illusions which are quasi real.
Hell you resist Improved Invisibility with Intuition instead of will power.
Shooting invisible characters is already fairly brutal
-6 penalty the smartgun is likely useless and its skill+intuition instead of agility.
Going from 18 dice to 8 is bad enough.
Some other options can be just peek around corners with a smartgun and hope the mage doesn't spot. And remember "target has partial over" offers a -4 penalty this applies to spells just as sell as guns.
| QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Apr 9 2007, 03:34 PM) |
| BY RAW, Invisibility never effects hearing or other senses. The sound of a bullet hitting a person is very different then hitting a wall. Just as the character should feel his weapon hit something in mid air. "The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, etc.)" |
The way I run invisibility doesn't have any effects on sound. They will hear the actions they performed but they will see the illusion.
| QUOTE |
| Remember the more brutal you are with Invisibility, the easier the PC's turn the tables on you. |
Trust me, I know, but I am like a Dragon. I have at least 12 reactions for their every action.
| QUOTE |
| Improved Invisibility is a physical illusion, It effects technology, because it actually bends light around you making you invisible. |
Which is why I have a problem with this form of physical illusion. It acts more like a manipulation spell and interferes with my vision of how magic should work, hence the removal from my game. It also quasi acts like "smart" magic, which IMHO shouldn't exist. I have several other spells that I removed for similiar reasons. But you are right, that is a whole other bundle of joy for discussion.
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| And remember "target has partial over" offers a -4 penalty this applies to spells just as sell as guns. |
Since when? Direct Combat spells are treated as a success test not a ranged combat test.
| QUOTE (Superbum) | ||
/snip
Which is why I have a problem with this form of physical illusion. It acts more like a manipulation spell and interferes with my vision of how magic should work, hence the removal from my game. It also quasi acts like "smart" magic, which IMHO shouldn't exist. I have several other spells that I removed for similiar reasons. But you are right, that is a whole other bundle of joy for discussion. |
I don't have a problem with most physical illusions, but invisibility is a bit odd. Physical mask is reasonable, as you just wrap the target in the illusion of someone else, but how do you create an illusion of empty air? Answers on a postcard, please! (or not. we have another thread for this, and I've found little to no joy there).
Superbum; I'm curious which other spells you have seen fit to remove.
| QUOTE (Wasabi) | ||
Since when? Direct Combat spells are treated as a success test not a ranged combat test. |
| QUOTE ("p173 SR4") |
| Visibility modifiers (including darkness, cover, and other impediments) noted for ranged combat also reduce the magician's Magic + Spellcasting dice pool when casting spells. |
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