Negotiation, How do you run it? Options

[Eryk the Red]

I've never really figured a satisfactory way to run negotiating for pay or price for gear or whatever. Initially I did an opposed test, with the winner pushing the base price ten percent his way per net hit. I didn't like it. It doesn't have the dynamics of the Johnson lowballing the pay; it doesn't give the opportunity to ask for an exorbitant amount (and suffer the consequences). (I know you can roleplay all that, but it can be difficult when the rules don't really reflect what you're roleplaying.)

So right now I have a system I made, which is way too complicated, but I like it because it incorporates the idea of bidding a different price than that which is offered, then modifying the negotiation test based on how much this offer differs from the other person's preferred price.

So I'm just curious how other folks run negotiation. Maybe I missed something, and there's a much easier way to do things that still has stuff I like.

[Kyoto Kid]

...I have the Johnson's bodyguard (who is also a grade 6 initiate gunbunny adept Troll with the Astral Perception power and assensing skill) shoot any PC who has an Increase Charisma spell up with APDS rounds from the PJSS he has conveniently hidden under his longocat. :grinbig:

Seriously...

(players in my campaign, do not read this under penalty of a Brimstone™ focused solar cannon shot locked on to their character's position)

[ Spoiler ]

For now I do it by the book but as suggested in another thread, give the Johnson room to work with without it getting too outrageous. I do have him lowball by about -20% (rounded to down nearest full 500 :nuyen: ) and set a ceiling of +20% to 25% of the actual (real) rate. If they score more successes than the cap that is the most he can offer.

[odinson]

Roleplay it. I always have the johnson offer less than he's willing to pay. If the players take it good. If they ask for more and it's below his lower price range he'll take it. If they ask for more and it's within his price range a negotiation test with one hit will get them that price, if they ask for more than he's willing to pay they make an opposed test and each net hit they score will bring them above his starting offer by a predetermined amount, usually about 20% of his asking price. If they ask for something completely ridiculous I would give them penalties to their negotiation test. Something like -2dice for every +100% over max price they asked for wouldn't be a bad start.


Johnson offers 1000 nuyen per person to do the job. His range is 2000-4000 nuyen.
If the players agree he just got a deal.

If the players ask for anything between 1k and 2k he takes it. It is still less than he was willing to pay.

If the players ask for between 2k and 4k a Negotiation test with one hit will get them it. I don't make this test as opposed.

If the players ask for between 4k and 8k an opposed Negotiation test is made. Each net hit would add 400 nuyen to the 2000 lower limit and the players would get that price.

If the players asked for 8k+ then the negotiation test would be at -2 dice for every multiple or portion of the upper limit above 8k they offered.
I might call for an etiquette test if they got enough dice to reduce their negotiation test to 0 to prevent the Johnson from just walking out on the players.


Thats roughly how I do it. Change prices around to suit the job of course. On occasion throw in the Johnson who's in a hurry so just offers 3k for the same range. The player who thinks he's got your system worked out and asks for 12k might just make the Johnson angry enough that he'll walk out if the character doesn't have good skills.

[Luddite]

I try to RP the negotiations at least a little, 'cause Johnsons betray their teams all the time, and the first place to look for clues to a possible betrayal is the negotiation. Situations vary, but the Johnson will usually lowball at -20% or so, and go up to a max of +25%, as already stated. However, if he's paying out of his own pocket he may start lower but have a higher cap, depending on how much he needs the PCs in specific. There've been a couple times the PCs had their Johnson absoluetly over a barrel. To their credit they were gentle, which is why they still get work from that particular contact.

Also, I like to muddle the Johnson/Fixer somewhat, so at times the PCs will end up doing work for an acquaintance who is well known to them, if not a friend. In this case there is less direct negotiation over price, and more of an "I'll owe you one" dynamic. Hell, a few of my groups have been known to do runs for cost, or even pro bono if they like the cause.

Okay, that last part was me bragging about having a good group once upon a time.

[eidolon]

In either adventure mods or some rulebook somewhere, I saw it presented as "the Johnson will offer them X; the PCs can negotiate, with each success raising the amount by Y" and "the Johnson will offer them X; if the PCs succeed on a negotiations test, the amount will go up to X". Plus or minus extras like "he'll also give them X gear" etc.

I pretty much do it that way. I have an amount that the J is offering, and what he'll to up to, and then I have an amount picked out to increase it by depending on success. Other stuff is on a "as needed for story" or it just comes out of the RP.

Actually, lately it's all just been made up on the fly, now that I think about it. The roleplay matters more than anything I prep ahead of time, but I do let the rolls drive the numericalcashgearbonus changes.

[Superbum]

Look in Kyoto's spoiler. Thats almost exactly how I handle negotiations.

[FriendoftheDork]

The problem with many of these cases is that they don't differ between the PCs have ok negotation skills and no negotations skills.

Example: Johnson offers 1k. Every net hit increases amount by 100.

Example:
1. PC have negotation+charisma 7, Mr. Johnson has negotiation+charisma 8. PC is not likely to score more net hits than Johnson, thus price remain 1k.

2. PC have negotation+charisma 1(0 for defaulting), Same mr Johnson. Again no matter how many hits Johnson rolls he still pays 1k.

Here is how I usually do this: Determine market price. Basically, what is the job worth compared to risks and all. Or, what the Johnson expects he has to pay. Then you make the opposed negotation roll. Net hits to either side modifes the price up or down by 10%, max 100%.

The downside to this is that you lose out on the roleplay (which might be a good thing if you think haggling is boring), plus you lose out on the opportunity of making the PCs think of the mission based on Johnsons offer. Was the offer too good? Trap. Does the Johnson seem desperate to get the contract? Time for some good milking.

The benefits are several: It doesen't take much time, meaning you can get right on to planning, legwork etc.
The characters who puts alot of point in negotation will benefit the group greatly, rather that the PLAYER who is good at negotation makes the Johnson pay alot more despite playing a charisma 1 Troll.
If the team lacks a negotatior then the party will get less money on all runs, which IMO is fitting.
Even some skill is enough to increase the price somewhat (or decrease it less).

Still, I'm going to ask my players what they prefer... roleplay it all or roll it.

Hmm, another way might be to secretly roll the opposed test beforehand, then roleplaying the Johnson based on the level of success. If the Johnson wins, he will stop negotiating at a certain point, while of the PCs wins he will go much further depending on net hits. To simplify this you could just roll the players cha+neg vs threshold of Johnsons cha+neg/3.

[ornot]

[Eryk the Red]

I don't see any need to sacrifice roleplaying because there's rules. I do tend to gloss over certain aspects (we may not play out every moment of "4000 :nuyen: " "How about 3000 :nuyen: ?" "Maybe 3850 :nuyen: ", etc.). But I figure I'll go with a hybrid of my uber-complex rules and the simple ones.

Something like this:

There's a base price, which is secret. It may be the fair market price or simply what the opposing negotiator prefers. Opposing negotiator has a minimum/maximum price (depending if he is buying or selling). Each side makes an offer. If the player's price is over/under the base price, the opposing negotiator gets an extra die for every ten percent of the base it goes over/under. (Obviously, this depends who is the seller and who is the buyer.) If the price exceeds/goes under the max/mininum price, the opposing negotiator gets another 3 dice. Make the opposed test, with all appropriate modifiers. Each net hit for the winner pushes the price 10% in his direction. If the players win the roll, the price will not be better than either their offer or the minimum/maximum. Likewise, if the NPC wins, the price will not be better than their offer.

Regardless, everyone is free to refuse the deal at the end. This does, however, represent a true impasse. It does not simply allow them to try to roll again. Players may be allowed a second attempt if they spend a point of edge to do so. (This would simply replace the original attempt.)

Early draft, but I'll probably try that.

[eidolon]

[ornot]

I felt his point was that the J had a dice pool so much larger than the PCs that he will always pay the minimum regardless of whether the PCs are defaulting or have a dicepool almost as large as the J. To which my answer is something along the lines "the PCs should invest in a larger dice pool" or "give you J a smaller dice pool".

Of course his concern might be that the net hits is likely to be so small that the change in price will be negligible.

[Cheops]

Usually I just do the opposed test as presented in the book but I let the team role-play somewhat and if they do well in the negotiation they get +2 dice to the test. If they do poorly I usually bump the J down to the next level of hostility.

[Wasabi]

I rarely have done it any differently than "If the PC's roll it, whoever wins gets to modify by +/- 10% per hit with a max of 40% either way max."

I think after reading this, however, that I'll use a first impression sort of system. I'll pre-calc the difference in bought hits to stage down the initial offer and if they burn edge or have a negotiator come in to broker the deal we can roll it.

This means on average my face-character lacking group of late will get 40% less than the actual starting price and could get up to 40% over the actual starting price.

This means a 10k job would pay 6k if no face is present and up to 14k with a good roll. That means a face could take a stiff cut and the group would still feel they benefitted from the face each and every run. :-)

My other thought is to have it be based on an extended roll so edge doesnt break the payout system.

[Demerzel]

There's not nearly enough calculus being discussed in this thread...

[FriendoftheDork]

[ornot]

[Denicalis]

I always play it as if it was the real world. If I'm haggling, I start with a lower price. Let's say :nuyen: 1000 is where I want the price to wind up, so I'll open around :nuyen:650. Now, a cat with some decent negotiation can probably--with a few successes on his roll--bank me up to :nuyen: 800. Now, a cat with good negotiation, the kind of guy that can make me trust in their skills and abilities as a team, can probably push me--with some successes--to my desired :nuyen: 1000.

Now, to push me above that, if I'm a corp johnson, just won't happen. I have a budget I need to work within. Unless I need someone like now, now, now, I'm not going to go over what my boss said I could spend. Chances are that will come out of MY pay, and forget that noise. I'll find someone else to do the job for cheaper. Hell, I may even pocket some of the cash if I have an excess balance.

If it's out of my pocket, however, and I like this team (read: If this team has a guy with high charisma, a high negotiation rating, great etiquette and his team acts professional enough for me to think they may be elite, or at least solid) I may go over and above by about a fifth of my price. Say :nuyen: 1200 total. That's with a lot of good rolls and some great role playing on the part of their face, of course. But try and push me over that, and I don't care how your dice turn out. I don't care if you have three immortal elves, a vampire adept and a great dragon. If I'm looking for a team of shadowrunners in a bar somewhere, I probably don't need that level of firepower, and I can certainly find someone capable within my cost bracket.

The important bit is to remember that a Johnson is a businessman. You're the business, man. It's about economics. If he can find someone who can do the job in his price range, it doesn't matter how much better your crew is. Supply and demand. A Johnson will only spend what he wants to spend. He simply won't throw money away unless he has a gun to his head, and chances are, that job will get you killed and you deserve the money, Chum.

[toturi]

For those using Real Life as applied to negotiations, I'd say that that's real life and this is Shadowrun. Shadowrun != RL. The mechanics of SR negotiations mean that the Johnson has no predetermined upper limit and but that is balanced by the fact that often the J has so much more dice that he would score more successes, not the runners. If the J scores less successes, he should be so out of his league that the GM should have brought in a Prime Runner J to match the face in the first place. If the GM does not do that, then he should live with what he wrought.

[Denicalis]

Oh, that's such crap. A Johnson should not have an upper limit? Dude doesn't have a budget? It's a role playing game, not a roll playing game. He's a guy with certain upper limits. I'd never play in a campaign with such unnatural elements. The thing that makes the fantastic great in SR is the way they at least try and base it in a gritty, real world sort of feel. The game already has magic and dragons, not everything needs to be unbelievable.

I don't care how green the Johnson is. If he only has :nuyen: 5000 in his pocket, he won't be paying more than that, now will he?

[toturi]

[Denicalis]

See, I think you and I just differ on how to GM the game. For me, if the negotiation roll fails miserably, he'll top himself out on price real quick, maybe even toss in some wiz gear or information he has to sweeten the pot, but he won't go over his top end price. I don't think the book covers every possible outcome, so I don't take it to mean that if it doesn't exist in the book, it doesn't exist in the game. We just branch differently. I put more emphasis on the setting and the reality of it, you put it on the roll of the dice. That's fair, it's just a different approach.

[ornot]

If you don't institute any max price, you'll wind up with the players spending edge to completely screw over the J. Result: PCs with more money than they ought to have based on their karma, leading to deltware silliness and PACs all around while their skills are inadequate to actually do any of the runs they have the gear for.

As a GM you have to control the PCs income.

[toturi]

Actually where is the Negotiation for payment rules in SR4? I was looking for them and did not find anything. I was basing off the payment rules in the SRMs.

[Superbum]

[Superbum]