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Eryk the Red
I've never really figured a satisfactory way to run negotiating for pay or price for gear or whatever. Initially I did an opposed test, with the winner pushing the base price ten percent his way per net hit. I didn't like it. It doesn't have the dynamics of the Johnson lowballing the pay; it doesn't give the opportunity to ask for an exorbitant amount (and suffer the consequences). (I know you can roleplay all that, but it can be difficult when the rules don't really reflect what you're roleplaying.)

So right now I have a system I made, which is way too complicated, but I like it because it incorporates the idea of bidding a different price than that which is offered, then modifying the negotiation test based on how much this offer differs from the other person's preferred price.

So I'm just curious how other folks run negotiation. Maybe I missed something, and there's a much easier way to do things that still has stuff I like.
Kyoto Kid
...I have the Johnson's bodyguard (who is also a grade 6 initiate gunbunny adept Troll with the Astral Perception power and assensing skill) shoot any PC who has an Increase Charisma spell up with APDS rounds from the PJSS he has conveniently hidden under his longocat. grinbig.gif

Seriously...

(players in my campaign, do not read this under penalty of a Brimstone™ focused solar cannon shot locked on to their character's position)
[ Spoiler ]
odinson
Roleplay it. I always have the johnson offer less than he's willing to pay. If the players take it good. If they ask for more and it's below his lower price range he'll take it. If they ask for more and it's within his price range a negotiation test with one hit will get them that price, if they ask for more than he's willing to pay they make an opposed test and each net hit they score will bring them above his starting offer by a predetermined amount, usually about 20% of his asking price. If they ask for something completely ridiculous I would give them penalties to their negotiation test. Something like -2dice for every +100% over max price they asked for wouldn't be a bad start.


Johnson offers 1000 nuyen per person to do the job. His range is 2000-4000 nuyen.
If the players agree he just got a deal.

If the players ask for anything between 1k and 2k he takes it. It is still less than he was willing to pay.

If the players ask for between 2k and 4k a Negotiation test with one hit will get them it. I don't make this test as opposed.

If the players ask for between 4k and 8k an opposed Negotiation test is made. Each net hit would add 400 nuyen to the 2000 lower limit and the players would get that price.

If the players asked for 8k+ then the negotiation test would be at -2 dice for every multiple or portion of the upper limit above 8k they offered.
I might call for an etiquette test if they got enough dice to reduce their negotiation test to 0 to prevent the Johnson from just walking out on the players.


Thats roughly how I do it. Change prices around to suit the job of course. On occasion throw in the Johnson who's in a hurry so just offers 3k for the same range. The player who thinks he's got your system worked out and asks for 12k might just make the Johnson angry enough that he'll walk out if the character doesn't have good skills.
Luddite
I try to RP the negotiations at least a little, 'cause Johnsons betray their teams all the time, and the first place to look for clues to a possible betrayal is the negotiation. Situations vary, but the Johnson will usually lowball at -20% or so, and go up to a max of +25%, as already stated. However, if he's paying out of his own pocket he may start lower but have a higher cap, depending on how much he needs the PCs in specific. There've been a couple times the PCs had their Johnson absoluetly over a barrel. To their credit they were gentle, which is why they still get work from that particular contact.

Also, I like to muddle the Johnson/Fixer somewhat, so at times the PCs will end up doing work for an acquaintance who is well known to them, if not a friend. In this case there is less direct negotiation over price, and more of an "I'll owe you one" dynamic. Hell, a few of my groups have been known to do runs for cost, or even pro bono if they like the cause.

Okay, that last part was me bragging about having a good group once upon a time.
eidolon
In either adventure mods or some rulebook somewhere, I saw it presented as "the Johnson will offer them X; the PCs can negotiate, with each success raising the amount by Y" and "the Johnson will offer them X; if the PCs succeed on a negotiations test, the amount will go up to X". Plus or minus extras like "he'll also give them X gear" etc.

I pretty much do it that way. I have an amount that the J is offering, and what he'll to up to, and then I have an amount picked out to increase it by depending on success. Other stuff is on a "as needed for story" or it just comes out of the RP.

Actually, lately it's all just been made up on the fly, now that I think about it. The roleplay matters more than anything I prep ahead of time, but I do let the rolls drive the numericalcashgearbonus changes.
Superbum
Look in Kyoto's spoiler. Thats almost exactly how I handle negotiations.
FriendoftheDork
The problem with many of these cases is that they don't differ between the PCs have ok negotation skills and no negotations skills.

Example: Johnson offers 1k. Every net hit increases amount by 100.

Example:
1. PC have negotation+charisma 7, Mr. Johnson has negotiation+charisma 8. PC is not likely to score more net hits than Johnson, thus price remain 1k.

2. PC have negotation+charisma 1(0 for defaulting), Same mr Johnson. Again no matter how many hits Johnson rolls he still pays 1k.

Here is how I usually do this: Determine market price. Basically, what is the job worth compared to risks and all. Or, what the Johnson expects he has to pay. Then you make the opposed negotation roll. Net hits to either side modifes the price up or down by 10%, max 100%.

The downside to this is that you lose out on the roleplay (which might be a good thing if you think haggling is boring), plus you lose out on the opportunity of making the PCs think of the mission based on Johnsons offer. Was the offer too good? Trap. Does the Johnson seem desperate to get the contract? Time for some good milking.

The benefits are several: It doesen't take much time, meaning you can get right on to planning, legwork etc.
The characters who puts alot of point in negotation will benefit the group greatly, rather that the PLAYER who is good at negotation makes the Johnson pay alot more despite playing a charisma 1 Troll.
If the team lacks a negotatior then the party will get less money on all runs, which IMO is fitting.
Even some skill is enough to increase the price somewhat (or decrease it less).

Still, I'm going to ask my players what they prefer... roleplay it all or roll it.

Hmm, another way might be to secretly roll the opposed test beforehand, then roleplaying the Johnson based on the level of success. If the Johnson wins, he will stop negotiating at a certain point, while of the PCs wins he will go much further depending on net hits. To simplify this you could just roll the players cha+neg vs threshold of Johnsons cha+neg/3.
ornot
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Hmm, another way might be to secretly roll the opposed test beforehand, then roleplaying the Johnson based on the level of success. If the Johnson wins, he will stop negotiating at a certain point, while of the PCs wins he will go much further depending on net hits. To simplify this you could just roll the players cha+neg vs threshold of Johnsons cha+neg/3.

That's generally how I run it. Except without the secret part. The PCs know what they've rolled, but also know that I, as the GM, will take into account how well they roleplay out the negotiation. The J will be more intractable if they make a bad roll, and give less away about who he is and who he works for, but if they are clever they may still get some information.

This requires good judgement on the side of the GM, and quick wits as it is essentially going on the fly, even if you ahve an idea of a figure in your head already. It is possible to inadvertantly let slip more than you meant to, or the players can put 2 and 2 together better than you expected... but the game is not a competition, and it should be fun.
Eryk the Red
I don't see any need to sacrifice roleplaying because there's rules. I do tend to gloss over certain aspects (we may not play out every moment of "4000 nuyen.gif " "How about 3000 nuyen.gif ?" "Maybe 3850 nuyen.gif ", etc.). But I figure I'll go with a hybrid of my uber-complex rules and the simple ones.

Something like this:

There's a base price, which is secret. It may be the fair market price or simply what the opposing negotiator prefers. Opposing negotiator has a minimum/maximum price (depending if he is buying or selling). Each side makes an offer. If the player's price is over/under the base price, the opposing negotiator gets an extra die for every ten percent of the base it goes over/under. (Obviously, this depends who is the seller and who is the buyer.) If the price exceeds/goes under the max/mininum price, the opposing negotiator gets another 3 dice. Make the opposed test, with all appropriate modifiers. Each net hit for the winner pushes the price 10% in his direction. If the players win the roll, the price will not be better than either their offer or the minimum/maximum. Likewise, if the NPC wins, the price will not be better than their offer.

Regardless, everyone is free to refuse the deal at the end. This does, however, represent a true impasse. It does not simply allow them to try to roll again. Players may be allowed a second attempt if they spend a point of edge to do so. (This would simply replace the original attempt.)

Early draft, but I'll probably try that.
eidolon
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
The problem with many of these cases is that they don't differ between the PCs have ok negotation skills and no negotations skills.


Sure they do. In the former situation, they're rolling the skill. In the latter, they're defaulting. (At least SR3 wise. I don't know how defaulting works in SR4.) The method of achieving the successes changes, but the result of getting them (or not) doesn't.
ornot
I felt his point was that the J had a dice pool so much larger than the PCs that he will always pay the minimum regardless of whether the PCs are defaulting or have a dicepool almost as large as the J. To which my answer is something along the lines "the PCs should invest in a larger dice pool" or "give you J a smaller dice pool".

Of course his concern might be that the net hits is likely to be so small that the change in price will be negligible.
Cheops
Usually I just do the opposed test as presented in the book but I let the team role-play somewhat and if they do well in the negotiation they get +2 dice to the test. If they do poorly I usually bump the J down to the next level of hostility.
Wasabi
I rarely have done it any differently than "If the PC's roll it, whoever wins gets to modify by +/- 10% per hit with a max of 40% either way max."

I think after reading this, however, that I'll use a first impression sort of system. I'll pre-calc the difference in bought hits to stage down the initial offer and if they burn edge or have a negotiator come in to broker the deal we can roll it.

This means on average my face-character lacking group of late will get 40% less than the actual starting price and could get up to 40% over the actual starting price.

This means a 10k job would pay 6k if no face is present and up to 14k with a good roll. That means a face could take a stiff cut and the group would still feel they benefitted from the face each and every run. :-)

My other thought is to have it be based on an extended roll so edge doesnt break the payout system.
Demerzel
There's not nearly enough calculus being discussed in this thread...
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (ornot)
I felt his point was that the J had a dice pool so much larger than the PCs that he will always pay the minimum regardless of whether the PCs are defaulting or have a dicepool almost as large as the J. To which my answer is something along the lines "the PCs should invest in a larger dice pool" or "give you J a smaller dice pool".

Of course his concern might be that the net hits is likely to be so small that the change in price will be negligible.

You feel me pretty good Ornot, but simply making the Johnson worse just because the PCs chose to make antisocial goons doesen't seem right to me. Heck, they might even learn that to start investing in some negotation skill is worth it, as the Johnson won't screw you over THAT much anymore.

Bascially I need a penalty for losing in various degrees. Thus Johnson lowering the price by 10% for his net hits seems fine.
ornot
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
You feel me pretty good Ornot, [/snip]

Any time! Mrawrr wink.gif
Denicalis
I always play it as if it was the real world. If I'm haggling, I start with a lower price. Let's say nuyen.gif 1000 is where I want the price to wind up, so I'll open around :nuyen:650. Now, a cat with some decent negotiation can probably--with a few successes on his roll--bank me up to nuyen.gif 800. Now, a cat with good negotiation, the kind of guy that can make me trust in their skills and abilities as a team, can probably push me--with some successes--to my desired nuyen.gif 1000.

Now, to push me above that, if I'm a corp johnson, just won't happen. I have a budget I need to work within. Unless I need someone like now, now, now, I'm not going to go over what my boss said I could spend. Chances are that will come out of MY pay, and forget that noise. I'll find someone else to do the job for cheaper. Hell, I may even pocket some of the cash if I have an excess balance.

If it's out of my pocket, however, and I like this team (read: If this team has a guy with high charisma, a high negotiation rating, great etiquette and his team acts professional enough for me to think they may be elite, or at least solid) I may go over and above by about a fifth of my price. Say nuyen.gif 1200 total. That's with a lot of good rolls and some great role playing on the part of their face, of course. But try and push me over that, and I don't care how your dice turn out. I don't care if you have three immortal elves, a vampire adept and a great dragon. If I'm looking for a team of shadowrunners in a bar somewhere, I probably don't need that level of firepower, and I can certainly find someone capable within my cost bracket.

The important bit is to remember that a Johnson is a businessman. You're the business, man. It's about economics. If he can find someone who can do the job in his price range, it doesn't matter how much better your crew is. Supply and demand. A Johnson will only spend what he wants to spend. He simply won't throw money away unless he has a gun to his head, and chances are, that job will get you killed and you deserve the money, Chum.
toturi
For those using Real Life as applied to negotiations, I'd say that that's real life and this is Shadowrun. Shadowrun != RL. The mechanics of SR negotiations mean that the Johnson has no predetermined upper limit and but that is balanced by the fact that often the J has so much more dice that he would score more successes, not the runners. If the J scores less successes, he should be so out of his league that the GM should have brought in a Prime Runner J to match the face in the first place. If the GM does not do that, then he should live with what he wrought.
Denicalis
Oh, that's such crap. A Johnson should not have an upper limit? Dude doesn't have a budget? It's a role playing game, not a roll playing game. He's a guy with certain upper limits. I'd never play in a campaign with such unnatural elements. The thing that makes the fantastic great in SR is the way they at least try and base it in a gritty, real world sort of feel. The game already has magic and dragons, not everything needs to be unbelievable.

I don't care how green the Johnson is. If he only has nuyen.gif 5000 in his pocket, he won't be paying more than that, now will he?
toturi
QUOTE (Denicalis @ Apr 13 2007, 10:13 AM)
Oh, that's such crap.  A Johnson should not have an upper limit?  Dude doesn't have a budget?  It's a role playing game, not a roll playing game.  He's a guy with certain upper limits.  I'd never play in a campaign with such unnatural elements.  The thing that makes the fantastic great in SR is the way they at least try and base it in a gritty, real world sort of feel.  The game already has magic and dragons, not everything needs to be unbelievable.

I don't care how green the Johnson is.  If he only has nuyen.gif 5000 in his pocket, he won't be paying more than that, now will he?

Your rolls define what you can do in your role. He might even have a budget(this is a roleplaying device, not a game mechanic one until the writers put it in), but the rules say that if you roll poorly, the price goes up. If he still wants the job done, he'd pay more than that 5000, either in kind or somehow he'd have to raise the amount. How he pays that extra is your role, that he has to pay that extra is the roll.

If he only has 5000 in his pocket, he could to pay off the rest by being a joyboy, for all I care as a GM. But he pays.
Denicalis
See, I think you and I just differ on how to GM the game. For me, if the negotiation roll fails miserably, he'll top himself out on price real quick, maybe even toss in some wiz gear or information he has to sweeten the pot, but he won't go over his top end price. I don't think the book covers every possible outcome, so I don't take it to mean that if it doesn't exist in the book, it doesn't exist in the game. We just branch differently. I put more emphasis on the setting and the reality of it, you put it on the roll of the dice. That's fair, it's just a different approach.
ornot
If you don't institute any max price, you'll wind up with the players spending edge to completely screw over the J. Result: PCs with more money than they ought to have based on their karma, leading to deltware silliness and PACs all around while their skills are inadequate to actually do any of the runs they have the gear for.

As a GM you have to control the PCs income.
toturi
Actually where is the Negotiation for payment rules in SR4? I was looking for them and did not find anything. I was basing off the payment rules in the SRMs.
Superbum
QUOTE (toturi)
If he still wants the job done, he'd pay more than that 5000, either in kind or somehow he'd have to raise the amount.

So lets say a Johnson reaches his cap of 5000. Why would he pay more than that when he can just find another team to do the run for him that isn't as high-handed.

That is a harsh reality in Shadowrun. If you don't do it, someone else will.
Superbum
QUOTE (toturi)
Actually where is the Negotiation for payment rules in SR4? I was looking for them and did not find anything. I was basing off the payment rules in the SRMs.

They have a little snipit in First Run on how to use Negotiations for that scenario. From there you can easily house-rule something in.
toturi
QUOTE (Superbum)
QUOTE (toturi)
If he still wants the job done, he'd pay more than that 5000, either in kind or somehow he'd have to raise the amount.

So lets say a Johnson reaches his cap of 5000. Why would he pay more than that when he can just find another team to do the run for him that isn't as high-handed.

That is a harsh reality in Shadowrun. If you don't do it, someone else will.

Because the face has convinced him that despite going over the cap, they are the team for the job? Because the face has convinced him that the cap was way too low for any professional to take the job?

This is the harsh reality of the Shadowrun rules, if you got the dice, you can do it. Whatever is the the harsh reality in Shadowrun is up to the GM, but the RAW is immutable.
Superbum
QUOTE (toturi)
Because the face has convinced him that despite going over the cap, they are the team for the job? Because the face has convinced him that the cap was way too low for any professional to take the job?

Its rollplaying that got him to his cap of 5000. Roleplaying might make him decide to offer more or find additional funds.

QUOTE
This is the harsh reality of the Shadowrun rules, if you got the dice, you can do it. Whatever is the the harsh reality in Shadowrun is up to the GM, but the RAW is immutable.


Find me a page number that tells me how Negotiations work. Show me how the the RAW is immutable.
ornot
I'm sorry Toturi, but as the GM you have to control the players resources somehow.

If one team member has invested a lot of points in negotiate and has the mage sustain improved charisma and has pheremones he can be rolling a ridiculous handful of dice, and earning far more than the GM intended. As a consequence the party's 'ware users wind up being unbalanced compared to the magic users, as they are all sporting deltaware while the mage has yet to save enough karma to initiate.

Conversely if there is noone with many dice, the J hires them for next to nothing, and the PCs that require nuyen to improve themselves fall behind the magic types who rely on karma.

I exaggerate, but the GM has to step in and adjust matters so that all the players have fun, and noone feels left out.
Eryk the Red
I giggle at the notion of the rules-as-written being immutable. I've written all over my book, changing things or cutting things out as I see fit.

Other than that, I think it's okay to allow characters who achieve exceptional successes to break the rules a bit. That is, I do set a maximum pay, because Mr. J has a budget and the money may not exist beyond that, but if the player is an exceptional face and achieves an extreme level of success, I might let him break the limit a little. There should be rewards for being good. While you want the pay to be fair for the team, you want the player who plays the face to know that his points spent in Negotiation/Charisma/related stuff are well spent.

Also, if they hit the limit but achieve an exceptional success, I can reward them in other ways than increased pay. The Johnson may drop some extra info, or provide some gear at a reduced cost (he and his employer never need to pay retail price) or somesuch.
eidolon
QUOTE (FotD)
You feel me pretty good Ornot, but simply making the Johnson worse just because the PCs chose to make antisocial goons doesen't seem right to me. Heck, they might even learn that to start investing in some negotation skill is worth it, as the Johnson won't screw you over THAT much anymore.


I refrained from responding further because I was wondering if this were the case. If the PCs just aren't taking negotiation, and then they're wondering why they aren't getting paid well, then yes, dropping the J's negotiation capability might be a bit heavy handed, and would only serve to reinforce their poor character build choices.

However, never allowing them any success in the matter may serve to dampen their interest in even trying. The best thing here might be to let them fail miserably a couple of times, and then during the next character improvement session or some downtime, discuss the issue with them as players, and explain your stance on Negotiation (and the lack of it) and suggest that one of them put some points into it (whether that means raising Charisma, buying the Negotiation skill, etc).
toturi
QUOTE (ornot @ Apr 13 2007, 09:19 PM)
I'm sorry Toturi, but as the GM you have to control the players resources somehow.

If one team member has invested a lot of points in negotiate and has the mage sustain improved charisma and has pheremones he can be rolling a ridiculous handful of dice, and earning far more than the GM intended. As a consequence the party's 'ware users wind up being unbalanced compared to the magic users, as they are all sporting deltaware while the mage has yet to save enough karma to initiate.

Conversely if there is noone with many dice, the J hires them for next to nothing, and the PCs that require nuyen to improve themselves fall behind the magic types who rely on karma.

I exaggerate, but the GM has to step in and adjust matters so that all the players have fun, and noone feels left out.

Let's take every sam's favorite item: the Synaptic Booster. A basic SB 1 costs 80000. If you set the base pay at 5000, assuming that they save everything from each job(!) and they manage to double(!) the pay each time, the sam will take 8 jobs to get to the basic version of the SB 1. Deltaware is far far away.

QUOTE
Find me a page number that tells me how Negotiations work. Show me how the the RAW is immutable.


Sure. Page 121 SR4. For canon SR4 rules on how Negotiation should work for determining the pay for the runners, I'd refer to the SRMs. Different SRMs have different ways of determining pay, but some of them do not have caps while some do, those that don't don't, those that do do. You as a GM are free to determine how Negotiations apply to pay in your own games. But to me, if the rules for mission pay does not have a cap, then it stays uncapped.

QUOTE
I giggle at the notion of the rules-as-written being immutable. I've written all over my book, changing things or cutting things out as I see fit.


Then those rules are no longer RAW.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (ornot)
I'm sorry Toturi, but as the GM you have to control the players resources somehow.

If one team member has invested a lot of points in negotiate and has the mage sustain improved charisma and has pheremones he can be rolling a ridiculous handful of dice, and earning far more than the GM intended. As a consequence the party's 'ware users wind up being unbalanced compared to the magic users, as they are all sporting deltaware while the mage has yet to save enough karma to initiate.

Conversely if there is noone with many dice, the J hires them for next to nothing, and the PCs that require nuyen to improve themselves fall behind the magic types who rely on karma.

I exaggerate, but the GM has to step in and adjust matters so that all the players have fun, and noone feels left out.

The extra from a good negotiations roll could be something other then cash. Need a magical focus cheap? Need some extra info? Need an intro to a possible new contact?

The other side to controlling the PC resources.. well it's amazing how much gear and PC can get damaged and need repair during a run. There are other ways to control the level of the teams resources.
ornot
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (ornot @ Apr 13 2007, 08:19 AM)
I'm sorry Toturi, but as the GM you have to control the players resources somehow.

If one team member has invested a lot of points in negotiate and has the mage sustain improved charisma and has pheremones he can be rolling a ridiculous handful of dice, and earning far more than the GM intended. As a consequence the party's 'ware users wind up being unbalanced compared to the magic users, as they are all sporting deltaware while the mage has yet to save enough karma to initiate.

Conversely if there is noone with many dice, the J hires them for next to nothing, and the PCs that require nuyen to improve themselves fall behind the magic types who rely on karma.

I exaggerate, but the GM has to step in and adjust matters so that all the players have fun, and noone feels left out.

The extra from a good negotiations roll could be something other then cash. Need a magical focus cheap? Need some extra info? Need an intro to a possible new contact?

The other side to controlling the PC resources.. well it's amazing how much gear and PC can get damaged and need repair during a run. There are other ways to control the level of the teams resources.

I agree. You can offer them other stuff besides nuyen, and you can also require them to pay for repair and maintenance. I just don't see why you shouldn't control the PCs earnings as well as part of controlling resources.

Toturi: I'm afraid I don't feel your '8 runs to earn enough for synaptic booster 1' arguement holds much weight. Synaptic Boosters are the most expensive piece of 'ware in the book, by some margin. It should take some time to save up for those.

That being said, I think the runners should be earning maybe 10 to 15k a month. After lifestyle, maintenance, arranging safehouses, bribes, buying new SINs they should have maybe 5k put aside in case they get shafted later on. Additionally I wouldn't expect more than 1 or 2 runs a month, as the run should take 2 weeks or so to do legwork, plan, execute and complete. Consequently the Johnson's cap is likely to be somewhere around 15k, he's expecting to pay around 10k or 11k per runner. If a J offered a job for 5k, it'd be some kind of milk run that could be done in three days to a week.
Eryk the Red
QUOTE
Additionally I wouldn't expect more than 1 or 2 runs a month, as the run should take 2 weeks or so to do legwork, plan, execute and complete.


Heh. My group have become the people to go to when "I ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NEED THIS DONE TONIGHT!" (or tomorrow, if they're lucky.)

It's all a matter of style, I guess.
ornot
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
QUOTE
Additionally I wouldn't expect more than 1 or 2 runs a month, as the run should take 2 weeks or so to do legwork, plan, execute and complete.


Heh. My group have become the people to go to when "I ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NEED THIS DONE TONIGHT!" (or tomorrow, if they're lucky.)

It's all a matter of style, I guess.

I have thrown the odd 'must be done tonight' runs at my players. While the players may enjoy it, their characters universally hate it! Runs with no legwork are far more dangerous than going in properly prepared, and fortunately my players seem to rather value their characters.
Eryk the Red
The ever-present danger of death by explosion or being thrown from a train or somesuch keeps life exciting!
toturi
QUOTE (ornot)
[QUOTE=DireRadiant,Apr 13 2007, 09:04 AM] Toturi: I'm afraid I don't feel your '8 runs to earn enough for synaptic booster 1' arguement holds much weight. Synaptic Boosters are the most expensive piece of 'ware in the book, by some margin. It should take some time to save up for those.

That being said, I think the runners should be earning maybe 10 to 15k a month. After lifestyle, maintenance, arranging safehouses, bribes, buying new SINs they should have maybe 5k put aside in case they get shafted later on. Additionally I wouldn't expect more than 1 or 2 runs a month, as the run should take 2 weeks or so to do legwork, plan, execute and complete. Consequently the Johnson's cap is likely to be somewhere around 15k, he's expecting to pay around 10k or 11k per runner. If a J offered a job for 5k, it'd be some kind of milk run that could be done in three days to a week.

While the Synaptic Booster is the most expensive piece of ware, it is also the most essense efficient piece of initiative enhancement available. Essense is a fixed quantity asset. If you went with straight to SB 2 Basic at chargen, it would take 8 runs at 10K per run to upgrade to SB 3 basic and that is already extremely optimistic and assuming that the GM allows upgrading instead of requiring the PC to pay full costs. At full cost, it will take 24 runs for SB3 basic and 240 runs at 10K per run for Deltaware SB3. 240 runs! Even if I were to add all the runs in published campaigns and all the SRMs together, I doubt I'd be able to get 240 runs and that spans more than 20 years. If your PC has been running for 20 years, I won't mind if he does get Delta SB 3.

5K isn't a milk run. Look at any of the SRMs - they pay about 5K each on average.
Superbum
QUOTE (toturi)
Let's take every sam's favorite item: the Synaptic Booster. A basic SB 1 costs 80000. If you set the base pay at 5000, assuming that they save everything from each job(!) and they manage to double(!) the pay each time, the sam will take 8 jobs to get to the basic version of the SB 1. Deltaware is far far away.

Base pay does not equal cap. All of previous statements were using a cap of 5000 (which is pretty damn cheap). To give you a better example of how I work it, the johnson sets up a job with a base pay of say 10000. He is willing to negotiate up to say 15000. That is his cap. Then negotiations take place and the players might roll good enough to raise him up to his cap. If the players roll exceptionally well and roleplay it out, than the johnson might find other ways to add more incentive to do the job such as finding more cash or offering future favors or other small bonuses. If the players botch their rolls the johnson sticks with base pay and if roleplaying went bad the johnson finds another team.

QUOTE
Sure. Page 121 SR4. For canon SR4 rules on how Negotiation should work for determining the pay for the runners, I'd refer to the SRMs. Different SRMs have different ways of determining pay, but some of them do not have caps while some do, those that don't don't, those that do do. You as a GM are free to determine how Negotiations apply to pay in your own games. But to me, if the rules for mission pay does not have a cap, then it stays uncapped.


I have read those rules. They do not say how to determine scaling based on hits. It is just the base mechanics left up for me as a GM to decide how it works. Its RAW with holes. True, in the First Run SRM it does show a pay scale based on hits but the lack of even that smallest suggestion in the BBB is horrible. This leaves those without SRMs to having to come up with their own mechanics.

Thinking a johnson has infinite cash flow just because players roll exceptionally well isn't very realistic.
toturi
QUOTE (Superbum)
Base pay does not equal cap. All of previous statements were using a cap of 5000 (which is pretty damn cheap). To give you a better example of how I work it, the johnson sets up a job with a base pay of say 10000. He is willing to negotiate up to say 15000. That is his cap. Then negotiations take place and the players might roll good enough to raise him up to his cap. If the players roll exceptionally well and roleplay it out, than the johnson might find other ways to add more incentive to do the job such as finding more cash or offering future favors or other small bonuses. If the players botch their rolls the johnson sticks with base pay and if roleplaying went bad the johnson finds another team.

QUOTE
Sure. Page 121 SR4. For canon SR4 rules on how Negotiation should work for determining the pay for the runners, I'd refer to the SRMs. Different SRMs have different ways of determining pay, but some of them do not have caps while some do, those that don't don't, those that do do. You as a GM are free to determine how Negotiations apply to pay in your own games. But to me, if the rules for mission pay does not have a cap, then it stays uncapped.


I have read those rules. They do not say how to determine scaling based on hits. It is just the base mechanics left up for me as a GM to decide how it works. Its RAW with holes. True, in the First Run SRM it does show a pay scale based on hits but the lack of even that smallest suggestion in the BBB is horrible. This leaves those without SRMs to having to come up with their own mechanics.

Thinking a johnson has infinite cash flow just because players roll exceptionally well isn't very realistic.

5K is pretty damned good pay(see average pay for an SRM). Bodyguard service is 200 per day. A runner can be hired for a 25 day escort run.

If your 10K is per job, then the J had better be hiring only 2 guys, because any more than that is less than 5K per person. The only time I have seen pay breach 10K per person are the Immortal Elves/Great Dragons runs.

Those without SRMs can go download them for free. If free isn't good enough for you, well, allow me to hit you over the head with a very heavy object while you stand still.
Eryk the Red
I guess I run a pretty high-cash game. My group would cuss and walk away from an offer of 10,000 nuyen.gif total. (Group of 4 or 5 normally.) 40,000 nuyen.gif base is more common for us.
Kyoto Kid
...one of the tough things I found is opening a new campaign with new characters in the same group of players I have run with for several years. It is especially difficult after a previous campaign that reached the "Prime Runner" level and everyone who survives retires pretty well off. Suddenly the players feel their new characters require the huge incentives that their former characters had become accustomed to even though the intial mission is quite routine. They scoff at the offer if isn't in the high 5 digit to even 6 digit range and walk out. Again end of session and end of campaign before it begins.

Now the normal answer would be, "go get another group of players', but that isn't always easy.

...on the other hand, I could bring in my NPC Lady Grande as the Johnson & have her throw her Edge into the negotiation test (Basically, I take the entire cube of 36 dice and roll it). vegm.gif
Superbum
QUOTE (toturi)
5K is pretty damned good pay(see average pay for an SRM). Bodyguard service is 200 per day. A runner can be hired for a 25 day escort run.

If your 10K is per job, then the J had better be hiring only 2 guys, because any more than that is less than 5K per person. The only time I have seen pay breach 10K per person are the Immortal Elves/Great Dragons runs.

Those without SRMs can go download them for free. If free isn't good enough for you, well, allow me to hit you over the head with a very heavy object while you stand still.

Well, dude, everyone runs different numbers in their games. Those numbers were just examples. For instance, I pay higher than average because I am rather cruel GM and they lose vehicles/gear often. Hell, from these very forums I have heard stories of people accumulating close to half a million from just game play.

/dodge heavy object

And I know there are SRMs I can download but the people that don't have the priveledge or knowledge to post on these forums don't.
ornot
I've downloaded all the SRMs. 5k is generally how much they pay for a green team. What the SRMs describe as a streetwise team (20-60 karma) will earn 8k for the same run. Also it's worth bearing in mind that the SRM are designed for convention play, and should be all done in a few hours real time. In-game time they rarely take as long as a week.

As far as being comparable to a bodyguard; bodyguarding is legal and rather safer than most of the stuff runners wind up doing. Bodyguards also don't need to be as skilled as runners.
Moon-Hawk
This is going to be similar to what some other people have said, but to chime in:

I set a base price for the run ahead of time, and a shift / net hit. For example, the base price might be 10,000Y, with 500Y (5%) per net hit in the negotiations. I may or may not define a cap, it depends on who's paying. That's all behind the GM screen.

When the meet stars, the Johnson makes an offer. Typically about 80% of the secret base price. It varies, but the important thing is this offer has absolutely nothing to do with the actual negotiation. It could be an insulting low-ball, or it could be the actual base price.

Then the PCs and the Johnson talk and have some IC negotiations. They bring up points in their favor. Actual numbers aren't really mentioned here, so much as just points in their favor that make the run more or less valuable.

Finally, we roll negotiations, and one side or the other might've earned a couple extra dice based on the RPed negotiations earlier. This roll modifies the base price (not the initial offer, which you remember is irrelevant) by the net nits, just like normal.

Finally, my players trust me that the base prices are fair and balanced with the scope of the campaign that we're playing, and that if I'm screwing them on a particular run it's for an important plot reason.
deek
I think I run a pretty high nuyen and karma game as well...I've yet had a single player attempt to negotiate offers and we are going on close to a year of playing...
Eryk the Red
It's time to totally screw them over on pay, then, deek. wink.gif
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