What do you do with COMPETENT PCs, Is combat compulsory Options

[knasser]

This might be an unfamiliar problem for most of the GMs here, but what do you do when your players are too good at the stealth, hacking etc. Shadowrunners are supposed to be skilled and sneaky, but when they actually manage to pull that off you get them walking in and out of a complex without any combat whatsoever.

I'll give you an example in the classic "retrieve a prototype" mission:
1. Hacker gets into the system and with some successful rolls disables motion sensors and unlocks a service entrance to the compound.
2. Hacker gets into the security system and plots real-time locations of all the security forces.
3. With a concealing spirit and the occasional hacker disabled camera, the team walk through the complex to the prototype (actually an antique weapon focus on display in the renraku exec's office, in this mission), take it and walk out.
4. Mage gets the patroling spirit with Control Thoughts successfully preventing any alert going off or the summoning mage being aware of its destruction.
5. Go see the Johnson.

Total rolls on part of Hacker - lots. Total rolls on part of mage: 2. Total rolls on parts of Samurai and Samurai-Rigger: 0.

Do other GMs consider combat a necessary part of each session or has anyone else ever been faced with total competence on the part of their players? Is it right to structure the mission so that the players will not be able to pull off a well-thought out plan?

What's everyone's attitude to this?

Thanks,

-K.

[Ophis]

I say pat them on the back and give them an extra karma each, and another for the hacker...

Runners should be able to pull off a well planned run clean, the only addition I would have made to set up is a small swarm of watchers with the spirit.

[Baphomet69]

The most important question, IMHO, is this; did you and the players (especially the ones that didn't need any die rolls) have fun? If so, then it's exactly as Ophis said.

I don't think it's right for a GM to ever 'screw the runners' because they're 'too good'. If they can pull it off professionally, more power to them, that's what they're getting paid for, right? I'm sure not all their runs will go this smooth, and then the sam's will get to roll PLENTY of dice... :)

[FriendoftheDork]

This seems fine and dandy, except for one major point: player activity. It seems to me the hacker is totally running the show while the the others are just along "just in case". If I was the samurai I would be bored, meaning I would probably take stupid risks just to get SOME action.

I don't think it is easy, but I would try to make things a bit more difficult for the hacker. For instance, many systems doesen't use wireless, or has wireless-inhibiting material in walls that means you often have to go into the complex before you can start hacking. Getting into the complex would therfore require legwork and/or combat, and this is where the other party members should be able to outshine the hacker.

Legwork should be a vital part of a shadowrun, and even though the hacker probably has some contacts as well, there should be others with the required information.

It's not a problem that the runners pull off a run without combat or anything going wrong. That's the characters' goal after all, and shows aptitude. The problem lies in one player overshadowing the others. It would be as bad if it was the other way around, having lots of combat where the others had to take cover and wait while the sammy killed all the opposition with no difficulty.

Keep in mind that even well laid plans can go awry because of chance or insufficient info. If the party is fed wrong data, they might not know that a high alert securty team was training at the facility in question, and the runners run into them just as they're about to steal the prototype.

Perhaps another team of runners are doing the same mission, and did it all before the party or even failed horribly, setting off alarms and calling down the heat. Now the party has to track down the rival runners or go through with a mission despite every system being in alert and corpsec rushing in.

Then there's always the double-cross. Sure, the mission was easy but as the PCs depart with the prototype Mr. Johnson has a squad or three laying in ambush to retrieve the object... how do you hack your way out of that?

Basically, just throw in complications if the runs go too smooth.

[Narmio]

I agree that you should not deliberately screw with them on a whim because they're good. If everyone's having fun beng quiet and professional, the worst thing you could possibly do is anything that might discourage this kind of behaviour! On the other hand, some days were just always going to be bad days...

If the players are really getting into the heist mindset, start throwing more complicated heist jobs at them. The kind of thing with multiple concurrent objectives within one or more compounds with additional twists of the place-the-blame and narrow-timeframe variety. If the team is confident and capable enough to split up and secure multiple objectives, then you know that all the players will be having lots of fun.

Coming from a D&D background, in my opinion one of the best things you can do is split the team. More involvement, more chance to spotlight characters out of their element, more fun. How many heist movies have you seen where all the characters move around as a single unit all the time?

[knasser]

Yes, it was fun. But... there was something unsatisfying about it. The thing is, I run most games around a mission with some interludes of downtime-roleplaying and "out of mission" adventure. That suits us as the group's sessions are a bit stop-start along and vary in who we have present. What I don't want is to end up with the games being "okay, here's the plan. Let's wait to see how far we get before the GM arbitrarily throws shit at the fan because we're doing too well." Maybe I just need to structure the run so combat can't be avoided. It just seems that I'm then setting the players up to fail by saying (a) Shadowrunners are supposed to aim for stealthiness and (b) the GM wont allow successful stealthiness. It seems that this is built into the game to some extent.

[ornot]

If the players have managed to successfully complete the run without any combat, more kudos to them.

I would personally throw in a few curve balls such as a late working corp or two. If they hadn't done enough legwork I might even have had an office party on the same night as they planned the run.

It might be worth upping the ante for the hacker, and make the facilities a little tougher to hack. I've had the problem where the hacker and his level 6 programs can defeat nigh any system. I guess you could just populate the computer systems with ever more security hackers.

[Eugene]

You could make things complicated (and not in a "ha ha, I'm screwing you way"). In your prototype run, for instance, maybe there's a couple of people working late that evening. What do the PCs do then? Do they really kill off those poor saraimen just because the fraggers at Renraku pushed up their deadline? And if not, how do you deal with them? I suppose the mage can just hit them with a stunball, but there's opportunities for the physical characters, too: to knock them out, tie them up, or whatever. Or maybe the relic that was -supposed- to be on the wall is actually now in a safe, or a janitor just stole it (maybe the hacker even sees it happen with his camera controls!).

Plus, with all the roll's the hacker's making, chances are he'll muck -something- up, and that creates opportunities for the physical people too.


I agree with you, though, that there's a tension between expectations (be professional, don't get caught) and desires (action, baby!). Maybe another solution is to have some runs where combat figures big, and some runs where it's incidental. I suppose, though, as long as the players feel invested or interested in the story (i.e. they're making decisions that affect the outcome of play), they'll have fun even if they're not mowing down mooks.

[hyzmarca]

Simple. Don't give them any more just steal the prototype missions. Give them wetwork. Even when their stealth is perfect the sammies will still have to shoot someone.

Steal the prototype, extract the head scientist who worked on it against his will, kill all of the other scientists involved, and destroy the data works very well.

[Mistwalker]

If your runners pulled off that perfect job, good for them.

You don't have to have combat on every run.

But, you can make the jobs more challenging in the futur...

There are security measures that are not connected to anything wireless, like a bit of invisible thread that goes into the stand, that when broken, set's off the mother of all sirens.

If it is a very valuable prototype, have guards in the room with it.
Or for the nastier minded corps, guards that are being concealed by a spirit (summoner does not even need to be present).

What they stole is not the prototype, it is the mockup used for photoshoots, and as a decoy. Did they notice before or after stealing it? Can they put it back and sneak out, to be able to find the real one without raising any alarms? Or have they already left the building and now need to find the real prototype and steal it with enhanced security. And that decoy prototype, does it do anything?

Have the stand that the prototype stands on spray RFIDs all the time, and if any of them leave the room, alarms go off, if all the RFIDs stop transmitting, alarms go off.

None of these suggestions are "oh, let's screw the runners", but will make the job harder, and probably have some combat happen as well.

[DireRadiant]

If you never allow the team to pull off a job successfully, then why should they bother planning and being sneaky? They'll learn that due to metagaming, it's always going to end in combat, so why not start it that way?

What you can do though, is even if the mission is going to finish smoothly, you need to generate the tension and excitement in the players so it always feels risky. Toss in a surprise, but an easily handled one.

There's always the random dice toss behind the gm screen and the silent head shake as you look at the results and don't say anything to the players as they sneak in gambit.

[Neonsamurai]

give them riskier runs with more profit ( and of course more action )

[Dizzman]

A good way to add in some combat & excitement for the sams is a good enemy. Someone like a Yak boss or jaded Johnson would be a good fit. Since they are actively looking for the runners - you can set up an ambush or other situation where planning won't be enough to get them out of a tight spot. An ambush also plays to the strengths of the Sam - speed, combat and quick thinking. You can also do a vehicle ambush so the Rigger/Sam gets a high speed chase!

After a few ambushes or run-ins you can have the story-line proceed a bit where the hacker or mage is able to find out who the enemy is, what he wants and how to get to him. That can lead to a big finale where everyone gets to use their skills - including the sams, since the team will need to ice their enemy and his body guards.

Here are some good ways to pick up enemies for the characters.

Blast from the Past - Check to see if the characters wrote in a good enemy into their back story. If not, make one up - jaded ex with cash & contacts, old team mate on a mission gone bad, loan shark looking to collect, etc.

The McGuffin - Have them unexpectedly come across something very valuable and very hard to fence on their next super-competent run. You can even use it as an excuse to spice up the run - the local manager, computer system and security team are out of the loop don't even know the McGuffin and its team of crack security specialists are staying at the compound for just this one night... In any case, the runners end up with the McGuffin and there is a Johnson with ample resources that needs to get it back or his hoop is on the fire.

The Uppity Punk - Some punk is running his mouth off to the runners at a local bar, street corner or supermarket. Or maybe he just gets in the way during a local run. The runners realize they should have killed him when they had the chance. His father is the oyuban.

The Green Eyed Monster - The runners are good, too good. All their success has come to the attention of Seattle's (or subsection of Seattle's) biggest fixer and his team of crack runners. There is only room for one at the top and this fixer and his top notch team are determined to stamp out your group of runners and their fixer before they become viable "competition" for the best jobs in the shadows.

The Double Double Cross - A Johnson/Fixer is going to double cross the runners for some cred, but the runners find out. They're told by another Johnson with evidence and some cred if the runners turn the tables first. The only thing is, the evidence is false. Now the runners have two enemies on their hands. One that wants to wipe out them out for betrayal and the other who wants to wipe them out to hide the evidence.

[Wasabi]

If they trump that sort of mission and it pays, for the sake of an example, 50k Nuyen then ramp up the difficulty and offer a good bit more pay such as 100k nuyen.

HOW TO RAMP UP:
1. Include low signal nodes, anti-wireless paint, bad guys who turn off their commlinks, and hardwired matrix security. EGADS! Wires inside concrete, no haxxorz!
2. Spirits on patrol can be mitigated by using Background count (vis a vis the spell that makes Background Count or natural Background Count), the Concealment power, and Magic Lodges.
3. Spells that are active on a target can be detected and counterspelled/dispelled. Guardian, Plant, and Guidance spirits can counterspell/dispel.

Just a few things that might help... :-)

[Jack Kain]

Don't have doors linked directly to the system. In all the runs I've been on the hacker or technomancer have open 0 doors through hacking. They always had to access the maglock directly. And use electronics, That meant someone had to watch there back while they opened the door.


ALL facilities have had wireless inhibiting paint. Why would you want outsiders accessing your buildings security system.

Don't forget Security RFID tags attached to the target.

A heavy security area may have multiple watcher spirits. Cheap a mage can bind a crap load of them for little trouble and effort. And if they follow the evil overlord rule moving in pairs its much harder to take them both out with out the summoner knowing

[looking down]
Detect Chameleon Suit?
Now thats just stupid.


Then of course the physical guards could just walk around the corner.
Or maybe 2 or 3 are talking and one is leaning on the door they HAVE to enter.

Simply shutting off the cameras should activate the alarm.
"A camera feed disruption can mean only one thing, intruders" I mean really if the guy watching the camera's feed see's them go off ALARM. If he catches on to a camera loop ALARM ON. Guards patrol and call in.

[Wasabi]

Another thing is motion sensors. Sure Stealth and Silence spells can counter them but they work against pesky Chameleon Suits.

In fact, I have a mage that needs to create "Detect Chameleon Suit", lol

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The PCs manages to perfom a simple, straight-foreward job silently?

Great!

Now you can even consider giving them difficult jobs that may even require them to think... :dead:

[MaxHunter]

The tension between stealth and combat expectations you mention exist sometimes. I ended up mixing different types of runs so everybody gets it's turn to shine. -hyzmarca said something similar- Actually the "Break in, steal X, break out" runs are the fewer in my games. Some sample runs for variety are: wetwork in different city, hunt the rogue replicants (erm... vatjobs), stop the gang war, destroy the secret lab, discover the murderer, bodyguard the bigwig, rescue girl from gang/mob/sect/corp research lab/dragon, etc, etc.

Many runs have necessary and unavoidable combat plus offer enough opportunities for the hacker and mage to put her skills into use. I am afraid that the typical heist shadowrun is not the most enjoyable for everybody, especially if all jobs are similar with just different opposition / complications.

Plus, there are many things to be done in order to give the run-of-the-mill heist job enough flavor and room for the bruisers.

As direradiant said, just adding tension and uncertainty does a great to make the run more enjoyable.

It is always nice to have some combat scene ready if the run is "too dull". And by that you do not have to screw the players plans at all. For instance:

-"random" gang violence. Anytime, anywhere, the punks come shooting; at the meet, after the run, during legwork, etc.

-Another shadowrunner team; hired to get the same thing, someone who wanted that job, old enemies, etc. These encounters could come up at
idle planning times or before/after the run. If you want to screw the players you can have them hit the same location at the same time(I do not recommend that, but...)

-Physical guards at bottlenecks; many security layouts have the security office/booth somewhere overlooking the goods or the only way into the goods. Removing the guards physically is by necessity a part of the plan.

-Late workers. People trying to meet a deadline, having secret sex at the office, coming back after work because they forgot something.

-The cleaning people. many are orks too!!!

-(Para)critters. Things like scent, astral perception or plain animal instinct make critters sufficiently unpredictable. Besides, that the dogs surprised you does not necessarily mean stealth is lost, you only need to geek them quickly.

-Enemies! Don't they have personal enemies? A simple mob middle man with a grudge can provide for endless rows of shootable goons, ready to kick the door happily any game day you like. Ahh, I used to have a (very competent) player who had a one million contract on his head from Aztechnology. "Free" and endless combat everyday without never having to worry about making a new rationale for it. Those were the days...

-Unusual locations. Outer space, Deep Sea, A security convention, a facility in Tir nan og, Research lab in African Jungle, Siberian Wilderness, Plex busiest area, a hospital during a crisis, military base, MCT zero zone populated by killer robots, Tamanous disassembling operation, Shaolin Temple, Islamic terrorists camp, oil rig during a storm, etc. Even if the runs goes smooth perfect, just getting the right gear for the run and/or getting on site involves some shooting and not a minor amount of danger. And you have a rigger in the party!!!

That's all I could come up with just now, I am sure there are million other ways to improve gameplay lying around under this very same virtual ceiling.

I would simply take one or two steps away from vanilla shadowruns, eventually, the runners will enjoy the heist jobs because they are rare and present interesting challenges.

After they have already "learned" the benefits of planning and preparation by succeeding enough times, you may start screwing them over without fear of dumbing down your game. It will even feel like a nice breath of fresh air in the campaign...

It is actually a very good thing that your players have succeeded being competent. Just be careful not to erase what they have accomplished and take care of all the players "needs". It will come about easily.

Cheers,

Max

[Thane36425]

So what happens when it turns out the corp tracked the hacker and has a team on its way to their location, or for that matter, if on site security notices that the system is acting screwy and cuts the matrix connection or reboots the system? That would leave the team high and dry inside the compound.

I agree with the others that having one player have all the action makes the game boring for others. In stealth oriented teams, that can make things boring for shooters, unless they get to take down the occasional guard or later in the mission they get to fight the Corp hit team sent to retrieve the goods. Physical combat is also a good way to bring the high flying hacker back down to earth since their combat skills usually aren't that great.

[Aaron]

I'm not sure that the number of rolls per session is the best metric for how much fun the players are having, or how much they are involved. For example, did the combat folks add to the planning at all, or were they off playing video games or staring into space? If the players were engaged, then it's all good.

Alternatively, if rolls per session is your thing, may I suggest Starfleet Battles?

[knasser]

Thank you to all of you for your replies. You are right. I should regard the problem as an opportunity. The players have clearly demonstrated that they should be promoted to tougher and more lucrative runs. Just to illustrate that they really are being smart though, security measures were neatly turned against me. Legwork revealed that motion sensors throughout the building picked up on any person that didn't have an employee RFID. Makes it tougher, you'd think? But in fact, I found that all I'd done was guarentee to the players that once they hacked the system, there were no employees wandering about the place that they couldn't plot on their maps. :(

The next run is going to be against a heavy duty installation or compound. Possibly a UCAS military base or Saeder-Krupp regional office. I'll think of some ways to structure it so I can guarentee some real action whilst making that an intended part of the run using some of the suggestions here. It will be fun after the last game to break out the big guns. I'm already picturing their little faces when the Johnson tells them he can provide a rigger with a helicopter to extract them if they want to work that into their plans.

Okay. Creative juices flowing again. :D

Cheers,

-Khadim.

[Wasabi]

Send 'em underground [as in below surface level]. That and antiwireless paint and its instantly ramped. :-)

[PBTHHHHT]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[ShadowDragon]

Sounds like you might be making your matrix security too light. Maybe tighten that up a bit? It doesn't even have to be contrived. Your PCs should get some nice rep points for ghosting in and out of the building with the prototype. This should lead to harder missions in more secure buildings (along with higher pay of course). Those buildings should be much more challenging for your hacker.