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knasser

This might be an unfamiliar problem for most of the GMs here, but what do you do when your players are too good at the stealth, hacking etc. Shadowrunners are supposed to be skilled and sneaky, but when they actually manage to pull that off you get them walking in and out of a complex without any combat whatsoever.

I'll give you an example in the classic "retrieve a prototype" mission:
1. Hacker gets into the system and with some successful rolls disables motion sensors and unlocks a service entrance to the compound.
2. Hacker gets into the security system and plots real-time locations of all the security forces.
3. With a concealing spirit and the occasional hacker disabled camera, the team walk through the complex to the prototype (actually an antique weapon focus on display in the renraku exec's office, in this mission), take it and walk out.
4. Mage gets the patroling spirit with Control Thoughts successfully preventing any alert going off or the summoning mage being aware of its destruction.
5. Go see the Johnson.

Total rolls on part of Hacker - lots. Total rolls on part of mage: 2. Total rolls on parts of Samurai and Samurai-Rigger: 0.

Do other GMs consider combat a necessary part of each session or has anyone else ever been faced with total competence on the part of their players? Is it right to structure the mission so that the players will not be able to pull off a well-thought out plan?

What's everyone's attitude to this?

Thanks,

-K.
Ophis
I say pat them on the back and give them an extra karma each, and another for the hacker...

Runners should be able to pull off a well planned run clean, the only addition I would have made to set up is a small swarm of watchers with the spirit.
Baphomet69
The most important question, IMHO, is this; did you and the players (especially the ones that didn't need any die rolls) have fun? If so, then it's exactly as Ophis said.

I don't think it's right for a GM to ever 'screw the runners' because they're 'too good'. If they can pull it off professionally, more power to them, that's what they're getting paid for, right? I'm sure not all their runs will go this smooth, and then the sam's will get to roll PLENTY of dice... smile.gif
FriendoftheDork
This seems fine and dandy, except for one major point: player activity. It seems to me the hacker is totally running the show while the the others are just along "just in case". If I was the samurai I would be bored, meaning I would probably take stupid risks just to get SOME action.

I don't think it is easy, but I would try to make things a bit more difficult for the hacker. For instance, many systems doesen't use wireless, or has wireless-inhibiting material in walls that means you often have to go into the complex before you can start hacking. Getting into the complex would therfore require legwork and/or combat, and this is where the other party members should be able to outshine the hacker.

Legwork should be a vital part of a shadowrun, and even though the hacker probably has some contacts as well, there should be others with the required information.

It's not a problem that the runners pull off a run without combat or anything going wrong. That's the characters' goal after all, and shows aptitude. The problem lies in one player overshadowing the others. It would be as bad if it was the other way around, having lots of combat where the others had to take cover and wait while the sammy killed all the opposition with no difficulty.

Keep in mind that even well laid plans can go awry because of chance or insufficient info. If the party is fed wrong data, they might not know that a high alert securty team was training at the facility in question, and the runners run into them just as they're about to steal the prototype.

Perhaps another team of runners are doing the same mission, and did it all before the party or even failed horribly, setting off alarms and calling down the heat. Now the party has to track down the rival runners or go through with a mission despite every system being in alert and corpsec rushing in.

Then there's always the double-cross. Sure, the mission was easy but as the PCs depart with the prototype Mr. Johnson has a squad or three laying in ambush to retrieve the object... how do you hack your way out of that?

Basically, just throw in complications if the runs go too smooth.
Narmio
I agree that you should not deliberately screw with them on a whim because they're good. If everyone's having fun beng quiet and professional, the worst thing you could possibly do is anything that might discourage this kind of behaviour! On the other hand, some days were just always going to be bad days...

If the players are really getting into the heist mindset, start throwing more complicated heist jobs at them. The kind of thing with multiple concurrent objectives within one or more compounds with additional twists of the place-the-blame and narrow-timeframe variety. If the team is confident and capable enough to split up and secure multiple objectives, then you know that all the players will be having lots of fun.

Coming from a D&D background, in my opinion one of the best things you can do is split the team. More involvement, more chance to spotlight characters out of their element, more fun. How many heist movies have you seen where all the characters move around as a single unit all the time?
knasser

Yes, it was fun. But... there was something unsatisfying about it. The thing is, I run most games around a mission with some interludes of downtime-roleplaying and "out of mission" adventure. That suits us as the group's sessions are a bit stop-start along and vary in who we have present. What I don't want is to end up with the games being "okay, here's the plan. Let's wait to see how far we get before the GM arbitrarily throws shit at the fan because we're doing too well." Maybe I just need to structure the run so combat can't be avoided. It just seems that I'm then setting the players up to fail by saying (a) Shadowrunners are supposed to aim for stealthiness and (b) the GM wont allow successful stealthiness. It seems that this is built into the game to some extent.
ornot
If the players have managed to successfully complete the run without any combat, more kudos to them.

I would personally throw in a few curve balls such as a late working corp or two. If they hadn't done enough legwork I might even have had an office party on the same night as they planned the run.

It might be worth upping the ante for the hacker, and make the facilities a little tougher to hack. I've had the problem where the hacker and his level 6 programs can defeat nigh any system. I guess you could just populate the computer systems with ever more security hackers.
Eugene
You could make things complicated (and not in a "ha ha, I'm screwing you way"). In your prototype run, for instance, maybe there's a couple of people working late that evening. What do the PCs do then? Do they really kill off those poor saraimen just because the fraggers at Renraku pushed up their deadline? And if not, how do you deal with them? I suppose the mage can just hit them with a stunball, but there's opportunities for the physical characters, too: to knock them out, tie them up, or whatever. Or maybe the relic that was -supposed- to be on the wall is actually now in a safe, or a janitor just stole it (maybe the hacker even sees it happen with his camera controls!).

Plus, with all the roll's the hacker's making, chances are he'll muck -something- up, and that creates opportunities for the physical people too.


I agree with you, though, that there's a tension between expectations (be professional, don't get caught) and desires (action, baby!). Maybe another solution is to have some runs where combat figures big, and some runs where it's incidental. I suppose, though, as long as the players feel invested or interested in the story (i.e. they're making decisions that affect the outcome of play), they'll have fun even if they're not mowing down mooks.
hyzmarca
Simple. Don't give them any more just steal the prototype missions. Give them wetwork. Even when their stealth is perfect the sammies will still have to shoot someone.

Steal the prototype, extract the head scientist who worked on it against his will, kill all of the other scientists involved, and destroy the data works very well.
Mistwalker
If your runners pulled off that perfect job, good for them.

You don't have to have combat on every run.

But, you can make the jobs more challenging in the futur...

There are security measures that are not connected to anything wireless, like a bit of invisible thread that goes into the stand, that when broken, set's off the mother of all sirens.

If it is a very valuable prototype, have guards in the room with it.
Or for the nastier minded corps, guards that are being concealed by a spirit (summoner does not even need to be present).

What they stole is not the prototype, it is the mockup used for photoshoots, and as a decoy. Did they notice before or after stealing it? Can they put it back and sneak out, to be able to find the real one without raising any alarms? Or have they already left the building and now need to find the real prototype and steal it with enhanced security. And that decoy prototype, does it do anything?

Have the stand that the prototype stands on spray RFIDs all the time, and if any of them leave the room, alarms go off, if all the RFIDs stop transmitting, alarms go off.

None of these suggestions are "oh, let's screw the runners", but will make the job harder, and probably have some combat happen as well.
DireRadiant
If you never allow the team to pull off a job successfully, then why should they bother planning and being sneaky? They'll learn that due to metagaming, it's always going to end in combat, so why not start it that way?

What you can do though, is even if the mission is going to finish smoothly, you need to generate the tension and excitement in the players so it always feels risky. Toss in a surprise, but an easily handled one.

There's always the random dice toss behind the gm screen and the silent head shake as you look at the results and don't say anything to the players as they sneak in gambit.
Neonsamurai
give them riskier runs with more profit ( and of course more action )
Dizzman
A good way to add in some combat & excitement for the sams is a good enemy. Someone like a Yak boss or jaded Johnson would be a good fit. Since they are actively looking for the runners - you can set up an ambush or other situation where planning won't be enough to get them out of a tight spot. An ambush also plays to the strengths of the Sam - speed, combat and quick thinking. You can also do a vehicle ambush so the Rigger/Sam gets a high speed chase!

After a few ambushes or run-ins you can have the story-line proceed a bit where the hacker or mage is able to find out who the enemy is, what he wants and how to get to him. That can lead to a big finale where everyone gets to use their skills - including the sams, since the team will need to ice their enemy and his body guards.

Here are some good ways to pick up enemies for the characters.

Blast from the Past - Check to see if the characters wrote in a good enemy into their back story. If not, make one up - jaded ex with cash & contacts, old team mate on a mission gone bad, loan shark looking to collect, etc.

The McGuffin - Have them unexpectedly come across something very valuable and very hard to fence on their next super-competent run. You can even use it as an excuse to spice up the run - the local manager, computer system and security team are out of the loop don't even know the McGuffin and its team of crack security specialists are staying at the compound for just this one night... In any case, the runners end up with the McGuffin and there is a Johnson with ample resources that needs to get it back or his hoop is on the fire.

The Uppity Punk - Some punk is running his mouth off to the runners at a local bar, street corner or supermarket. Or maybe he just gets in the way during a local run. The runners realize they should have killed him when they had the chance. His father is the oyuban.

The Green Eyed Monster - The runners are good, too good. All their success has come to the attention of Seattle's (or subsection of Seattle's) biggest fixer and his team of crack runners. There is only room for one at the top and this fixer and his top notch team are determined to stamp out your group of runners and their fixer before they become viable "competition" for the best jobs in the shadows.

The Double Double Cross - A Johnson/Fixer is going to double cross the runners for some cred, but the runners find out. They're told by another Johnson with evidence and some cred if the runners turn the tables first. The only thing is, the evidence is false. Now the runners have two enemies on their hands. One that wants to wipe out them out for betrayal and the other who wants to wipe them out to hide the evidence.
Wasabi
If they trump that sort of mission and it pays, for the sake of an example, 50k Nuyen then ramp up the difficulty and offer a good bit more pay such as 100k nuyen.

HOW TO RAMP UP:
1. Include low signal nodes, anti-wireless paint, bad guys who turn off their commlinks, and hardwired matrix security. EGADS! Wires inside concrete, no haxxorz!
2. Spirits on patrol can be mitigated by using Background count (vis a vis the spell that makes Background Count or natural Background Count), the Concealment power, and Magic Lodges.
3. Spells that are active on a target can be detected and counterspelled/dispelled. Guardian, Plant, and Guidance spirits can counterspell/dispel.

Just a few things that might help... :-)
Jack Kain
Don't have doors linked directly to the system. In all the runs I've been on the hacker or technomancer have open 0 doors through hacking. They always had to access the maglock directly. And use electronics, That meant someone had to watch there back while they opened the door.


ALL facilities have had wireless inhibiting paint. Why would you want outsiders accessing your buildings security system.

Don't forget Security RFID tags attached to the target.

A heavy security area may have multiple watcher spirits. Cheap a mage can bind a crap load of them for little trouble and effort. And if they follow the evil overlord rule moving in pairs its much harder to take them both out with out the summoner knowing

[looking down]
Detect Chameleon Suit?
Now thats just stupid.


Then of course the physical guards could just walk around the corner.
Or maybe 2 or 3 are talking and one is leaning on the door they HAVE to enter.

Simply shutting off the cameras should activate the alarm.
"A camera feed disruption can mean only one thing, intruders" I mean really if the guy watching the camera's feed see's them go off ALARM. If he catches on to a camera loop ALARM ON. Guards patrol and call in.

Wasabi
Another thing is motion sensors. Sure Stealth and Silence spells can counter them but they work against pesky Chameleon Suits.

In fact, I have a mage that needs to create "Detect Chameleon Suit", lol
Rotbart van Dainig
The PCs manages to perfom a simple, straight-foreward job silently?

Great!

Now you can even consider giving them difficult jobs that may even require them to think... dead.gif
MaxHunter
The tension between stealth and combat expectations you mention exist sometimes. I ended up mixing different types of runs so everybody gets it's turn to shine. -hyzmarca said something similar- Actually the "Break in, steal X, break out" runs are the fewer in my games. Some sample runs for variety are: wetwork in different city, hunt the rogue replicants (erm... vatjobs), stop the gang war, destroy the secret lab, discover the murderer, bodyguard the bigwig, rescue girl from gang/mob/sect/corp research lab/dragon, etc, etc.

Many runs have necessary and unavoidable combat plus offer enough opportunities for the hacker and mage to put her skills into use. I am afraid that the typical heist shadowrun is not the most enjoyable for everybody, especially if all jobs are similar with just different opposition / complications.

Plus, there are many things to be done in order to give the run-of-the-mill heist job enough flavor and room for the bruisers.

As direradiant said, just adding tension and uncertainty does a great to make the run more enjoyable.

It is always nice to have some combat scene ready if the run is "too dull". And by that you do not have to screw the players plans at all. For instance:

-"random" gang violence. Anytime, anywhere, the punks come shooting; at the meet, after the run, during legwork, etc.

-Another shadowrunner team; hired to get the same thing, someone who wanted that job, old enemies, etc. These encounters could come up at
idle planning times or before/after the run. If you want to screw the players you can have them hit the same location at the same time(I do not recommend that, but...)

-Physical guards at bottlenecks; many security layouts have the security office/booth somewhere overlooking the goods or the only way into the goods. Removing the guards physically is by necessity a part of the plan.

-Late workers. People trying to meet a deadline, having secret sex at the office, coming back after work because they forgot something.

-The cleaning people. many are orks too!!!

-(Para)critters. Things like scent, astral perception or plain animal instinct make critters sufficiently unpredictable. Besides, that the dogs surprised you does not necessarily mean stealth is lost, you only need to geek them quickly.

-Enemies! Don't they have personal enemies? A simple mob middle man with a grudge can provide for endless rows of shootable goons, ready to kick the door happily any game day you like. Ahh, I used to have a (very competent) player who had a one million contract on his head from Aztechnology. "Free" and endless combat everyday without never having to worry about making a new rationale for it. Those were the days...

-Unusual locations. Outer space, Deep Sea, A security convention, a facility in Tir nan og, Research lab in African Jungle, Siberian Wilderness, Plex busiest area, a hospital during a crisis, military base, MCT zero zone populated by killer robots, Tamanous disassembling operation, Shaolin Temple, Islamic terrorists camp, oil rig during a storm, etc. Even if the runs goes smooth perfect, just getting the right gear for the run and/or getting on site involves some shooting and not a minor amount of danger. And you have a rigger in the party!!!

That's all I could come up with just now, I am sure there are million other ways to improve gameplay lying around under this very same virtual ceiling.

I would simply take one or two steps away from vanilla shadowruns, eventually, the runners will enjoy the heist jobs because they are rare and present interesting challenges.

After they have already "learned" the benefits of planning and preparation by succeeding enough times, you may start screwing them over without fear of dumbing down your game. It will even feel like a nice breath of fresh air in the campaign...

It is actually a very good thing that your players have succeeded being competent. Just be careful not to erase what they have accomplished and take care of all the players "needs". It will come about easily.

Cheers,

Max
Thane36425
So what happens when it turns out the corp tracked the hacker and has a team on its way to their location, or for that matter, if on site security notices that the system is acting screwy and cuts the matrix connection or reboots the system? That would leave the team high and dry inside the compound.

I agree with the others that having one player have all the action makes the game boring for others. In stealth oriented teams, that can make things boring for shooters, unless they get to take down the occasional guard or later in the mission they get to fight the Corp hit team sent to retrieve the goods. Physical combat is also a good way to bring the high flying hacker back down to earth since their combat skills usually aren't that great.
Aaron
I'm not sure that the number of rolls per session is the best metric for how much fun the players are having, or how much they are involved. For example, did the combat folks add to the planning at all, or were they off playing video games or staring into space? If the players were engaged, then it's all good.

Alternatively, if rolls per session is your thing, may I suggest Starfleet Battles?
knasser
Thank you to all of you for your replies. You are right. I should regard the problem as an opportunity. The players have clearly demonstrated that they should be promoted to tougher and more lucrative runs. Just to illustrate that they really are being smart though, security measures were neatly turned against me. Legwork revealed that motion sensors throughout the building picked up on any person that didn't have an employee RFID. Makes it tougher, you'd think? But in fact, I found that all I'd done was guarentee to the players that once they hacked the system, there were no employees wandering about the place that they couldn't plot on their maps. frown.gif

The next run is going to be against a heavy duty installation or compound. Possibly a UCAS military base or Saeder-Krupp regional office. I'll think of some ways to structure it so I can guarentee some real action whilst making that an intended part of the run using some of the suggestions here. It will be fun after the last game to break out the big guns. I'm already picturing their little faces when the Johnson tells them he can provide a rigger with a helicopter to extract them if they want to work that into their plans.

Okay. Creative juices flowing again. biggrin.gif

Cheers,

-Khadim.
Wasabi
Send 'em underground [as in below surface level]. That and antiwireless paint and its instantly ramped. smile.gif
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (knasser)
I'm already picturing their little faces when the Johnson tells them he can provide a rigger with a helicopter to extract them if they want to work that into their plans.

And if they don't plan it out right, the helicopter might on its approach run take fire and possibly be shot down. Can you see their little faces when you describe the helicopter approaching and then take a missle and crash before their faces? Time for plan B.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
I'm already picturing their little faces when the Johnson tells them he can provide a rigger with a helicopter to extract them if they want to work that into their plans.

You mean the 'Thanks, but no thanks' faces? Come on, they already showed that they are not entirely stupid. nyahnyah.gif
ShadowDragon
Sounds like you might be making your matrix security too light. Maybe tighten that up a bit? It doesn't even have to be contrived. Your PCs should get some nice rep points for ghosting in and out of the building with the prototype. This should lead to harder missions in more secure buildings (along with higher pay of course). Those buildings should be much more challenging for your hacker.
mfb
i think that once in a while, those kinds of runs are good. it's a real accomplishment (or should be) to pull off a difficult run with finesse.

if it's happening too often, of course, there's a problem. the first solution would be to up the competence of the security. tougher hosts, more magical overwatch, independent drones, and so on. if that doesn't make sense for a given run, you can simply compromise the Johnson in some way--maybe he double-crosses them, maybe his superiors double-cross him, maybe he accidentally leaks information to a third party who decide to try and steal whatever it is that the PCs have rightfully stolen.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Wasabi)
Send 'em underground [as in below surface level]. That and antiwireless paint and its instantly ramped. smile.gif

I concurr, remember that mages cannot project themselves below ground level, and that most high security or secret facilities are beneath ground level (often just because of that).
fool
I agree that occaisionally this kind of run is good, but definitely throw curveballs at them. The level of competence of a runner is directly proportional to how well they can deal with the unexpected. A second host running a seperate security system, another shadowrun team after the same objective (might be a good way to have recurring characters as rivals) the exec is in the room with his secretary for some nightly overtime, etc etc.
Also, in our campaigns we eliminated control thoughts and influence etc as spells because we felt they were too powerful and could really frag over the opposition making everything a cake walk.
Wasabi
QUOTE (fool)
in our campaigns we eliminated control thoughts and influence etc as spells because we felt they were too powerful and could really frag over the opposition making everything a cake walk.

Works great AGAINST runners too...
Thane36425
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)

I concurr, remember that mages cannot project themselves below ground level, and that most high security or secret facilities are beneath ground level (often just because of that).

They could still project through doors and other openings, but would then be hemmed in just like the physically there characters would be. Worst of all, the facility could have planned for that and slide some FAB sliding doors across the entry and trap the mage inside. Backed up with a couple of spirits and a mage or two to keep calling up more, inside the facility of course, and the intruding mage is a dead duck.
Wasabi
Trap wards work very well for this. If the mage lacks really good assensing they'll have trouble even noticing the thing.
Wounded Ronin
Firstly, I would argue that this thread should have been started in the general SR forum and not the SR4 forum. This has nothing to do with the specific setting and rules of SR4. It is valid for any edition of SR.

Secondly, to answer the question, I would say that if the players are able to pull a run off smoothly then, no, the GM shouldn't magically make combat happen. I think that would hurt suspension of disbelief on the part of the players.

I look at it this way: there's always a probability of failure. Even if the PCs make things happen quietly most of the time they will still eventually botch up on some rolls and there will be combat. Each time there is combat if the combat is tough enough there is a certain chance that a PC will be killed. You just run enough missions and eventually something bad is going to happen.

I am on a Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 kick right now and I'll say that snipers hidden far far away can really ruin the day. KRAAACK.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I would argue that this thread should have been started in the general SR forum and not the SR4 forum. This has nothing to do with the specific setting and rules of SR4.

Not everyone plays non-SR4 iterations. Some folks only check this board.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Wasabi)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 15 2007, 05:46 PM)
I would argue that this thread should have been started in the general SR forum and not the SR4 forum.  This has nothing to do with the specific setting and rules of SR4.

Not everyone plays non-SR4 iterations. Some folks only check this board.

What does that have to do with putting threads in the topic-appropriate forum? If somebody only checked the General Gaming forum that wouldn't mean that I should post about SR3 there.
Wasabi
A poster that only checks this forum will likely post in this forum. Thats why.
I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that not everyone has time to monitor and stay caught up on the other boards on this site.
knasser

I regard SR4 to be the default general forum now as I think most people come here by default and it sees more activity. I think it would make a lot more sense if the forum titles were amended to Shadowrun and Shadowrun Previous Editions.

As others pointed out, I would get less feedback if I'd posted it in the Shadowrun forum.

-K.
deek
I'd say congrat to the runners...they did a fine job. They did an appropriate amount of legwork, got access to the facility and coordinate the grab like professionals. But I agree, you probably could have used some odd curveballs to challenge them. That doesn't guarantee combat, but that does guarantee problem solving, which is going to be fun as well.

With the exception of a mission to actually kill someone, I keep an open mind to allowing any of the runs I present my group with, at being completed without any combat. That rarely occurs, because most runners are not going to back down from intimidation from a uncharismatic fellow, but, I try to give them every opportunity to avoid combat if they so choose.

So, I think a lot of it has to do with the group and what they have fun playing. The run you described, seems pretty straightforward, but I guarantee you run that with 5 different groups and you are going to get different amounts of combat...honestly, I think that if the players want to get into some combat, they will make it happen whether you have it planned or not:)
2bit
QUOTE
Do other GMs consider combat a necessary part of each session or has anyone else ever been faced with total competence on the part of their players? Is it right to structure the mission so that the players will not be able to pull off a well-thought out plan?


I consider combat a goal for every session if my players need that to have fun. A quick combat scene during the legwork phase can really spice things up if the players are losing interest with all the phone calls, matrix and astral scouting, and planning. If a run is going to stretch out over multiple sessions, this is a good idea. It adds adrenaline to a night that would otherwise be filled with bookkeeping, debate, and light roleplay.

Regarding plans, I try to aim for the sweet spot where a well thought out plan will get them most of the way through. In the classic formula, skills and planning get the hero to the treasure. Guts, luck, and improvisation get them back out. Classic examples: Raiders of the Lost Ark, Aladdin.
Fezig
When I look at a full mission I see combat making its way in somewhere. In one of the missions I'm currently writing it is entirely possible for the party to avoid all combat, but for them to do so they'd essentially have to plan perfectly and execute perfectly. If they manage to do that, then they ought to have earned a cake-walk. The sammies will have gotten to stealth in and also help in the intel gathering, so everyone will have been involved. Besides, I doubt I'm the only player who every once in a while enjoys seeing another character pull some wiz moves.

PS - Another way to spice up the heist style of run is to make it a mobile-heist. They have to boost the item well in transport, which is a whole other ballgame and ought to at least get the rigger involved if not the sammie as well.
deek
QUOTE (2bit)
QUOTE
Do other GMs consider combat a necessary part of each session or has anyone else ever been faced with total competence on the part of their players? Is it right to structure the mission so that the players will not be able to pull off a well-thought out plan?


I consider combat a goal for every session if my players need that to have fun. A quick combat scene during the legwork phase can really spice things up if the players are losing interest with all the phone calls, matrix and astral scouting, and planning. If a run is going to stretch out over multiple sessions, this is a good idea. It adds adrenaline to a night that would otherwise be filled with bookkeeping, debate, and light roleplay.

Regarding plans, I try to aim for the sweet spot where a well thought out plan will get them most of the way through. In the classic formula, skills and planning get the hero to the treasure. Guts, luck, and improvisation get them back out. Classic examples: Raiders of the Lost Ark, Aladdin.

Yeah, good call on that...it really does all depend on the players having fun and the GM enjoying running for them...combat, no combat...really doesn't matter if everyone is having fun.

But, I will say, the enjoyment of "combat" is pretty prevalent in RPGs...I mean, that is what the countless hours or building a character, choosing abilities and gear, for the most part, is for...to fight. So, the element of combat, while not be the sole purpose of an RPG, is pretty central to it.

I like your stated goals...as I think that methodology would work well with the groups I normally run for. As I stated above, I basically keep about every scene open to combat if the players choose to go there (could be astral, matrix or physical, of course). Sometimes they will need to use a little muscle and other times they really should just back down, but I leave that up for them to decide how tough or easy each scene will be. I then basically get to outline the scenario and react to the players...

With my group, I think all the players have combat avoidance in the back of their heads, but also enjoy to just start their guns and spells a-blazin'! The bonus to them (from what I have been told) is that every scene doesn't "have" to end in a fight like some other games we have played...they have that choice the vast majority of the time...and I try not to penalize them either way, but just react.
2bit
Yeah. But combat gives everyone something to do, so it's easy to fall back on if people are bored.
deek
QUOTE (2bit)
Yeah. But combat gives everyone something to do, so it's easy to fall back on if people are bored.

Hehe...tell that to our group's mage:) Again, I think it all comes down to the group dynamic, but the majority of players are going to be geared for combat...
Aristotle
I think it's good for some players to experience a "total success". I had two in my last campaign. It proved to the players that they were playing competent characters, but the general lack of excitement of the very slow paced second run, made them understand why the various challenges they faced on so many other runs were necessary to keep the campaign interesting over the long term.
Lagomorph
Very nice Knasser, congrats to your team! I do find that you are correct though, when SR is played very well, no combat should ever occur. On the other hand generally half of the characters in the game, and half the BBB are all about combat, so it's supposed to be in there.

I think it's probably just going to be a mix of runs where combat happens, and runs where combat doesn't. My next run will be wetwork to give the sammy something to do since he hasn't lifted much of a finger so far in the current "steal the X" run.

Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (knasser)
I regard SR4 to be the default general forum now as I think most people come here by default and it sees more activity. I think it would make a lot more sense if the forum titles were amended to Shadowrun and Shadowrun Previous Editions.

As others pointed out, I would get less feedback if I'd posted it in the Shadowrun forum.

-K.

But that's mostly a matter of opinion, isn't it? I personally post in the SR4 forum only when replying to a thread and make new threads only in the SR forum. I haven't had any problems getting feedback to things.
Wasabi
Yeah its an opinion... just like yours.
Glyph
I think that the GM should not go out of his way to throw curveballs at the PCs, and some jobs should have the potential to go smoothly with enough planning and preparation. But even the most meticulous groundwork won't reveal every aspect of an installation's security (unless it is smaller scale, such as retrieving something from an exec's downtown office). Also, Murphy's law should crop up from time to time - not every time things are going "too smoothly", but often enough to keep the PCs on their toes.

Another thing to keep in mind is the atmosphere in SR, where betrayal happens fairly regularly, and where the threat of sudden violence lurks behind even the most banal-appearing social interactions. And finally, Mission Impossible-style break-ins are only one type of run. The PCs can also be hired for bodyguarding, wetwork, robbery of an armored car, and lots of other things.


Personally, I think that most runner teams should have a good mix of stealth, schmoozing, and combat ability. Perfect runs should be possible, but comparatively rare, so you need the combat types to get you out of there. But you also need the talkers and sneakers to find out enough to get you in and out with comparatively minimal fighting. If you get in a running gunfight with some guards on the way out, that's not so bad. But if you charge in headlong, you will be dealing with too much in the way of guards, security measures, and reinforcements to have a chance.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Wasabi)
Yeah its an opinion... just like yours.

Yes, there's my opinion, but there's also just the general forum ettiquette of posting things in the forum which is most related to the subject of your thread.

If I kept posting about general gaming (like HeroQuest or something) in the SR forum or the SR4 forum because I felt that the thread wouldn't "get read" if I put it in General Gaming that would be a breach of ettiquette, wouldn't it?
Wasabi
Its not about HeroQuest. Its about Shadowrun and the current version of Shadowrun is SR4. If the post were about HeroQuest and he had shared it on a forum discussing the latest version of HeroQuest then you might have a fair analogy. Nice hyperbole, though.

Not everyone checks the general discussion forum so by posting it here folks like me who wouldn't have seen it otherwise got a chance to see it. If it matters so very much to you that he post in a forum he doesn't check then cross link it there yourself and those readers will gain the exposure you fight so hard to win them.
eidolon
Let's not waste space and emotion arguing over where a thread goes. If we see one that needs to be moved, we'll move it and post the reason.

Likewise, if you ever find that after posting you think your topic would be better suited to a different forum, PM a mod and we'll be glad to move it for you.

With the majority of traffic being in the SR4 forum, it's perfectly fine that this be posted here. After all, the use of the term Hacker in the first post indicates pretty clearly which edition is really being discussed. If any rules discussion were to come up, and this was in the SR forum, it would end up needing to be moved here. If we went on a post-by-post basis, we'd be moving topics all day. wink.gif
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