What do you do with COMPETENT PCs, Is combat compulsory Options

[mfb]

i think that once in a while, those kinds of runs are good. it's a real accomplishment (or should be) to pull off a difficult run with finesse.

if it's happening too often, of course, there's a problem. the first solution would be to up the competence of the security. tougher hosts, more magical overwatch, independent drones, and so on. if that doesn't make sense for a given run, you can simply compromise the Johnson in some way--maybe he double-crosses them, maybe his superiors double-cross him, maybe he accidentally leaks information to a third party who decide to try and steal whatever it is that the PCs have rightfully stolen.

[FriendoftheDork]

[fool]

I agree that occaisionally this kind of run is good, but definitely throw curveballs at them. The level of competence of a runner is directly proportional to how well they can deal with the unexpected. A second host running a seperate security system, another shadowrun team after the same objective (might be a good way to have recurring characters as rivals) the exec is in the room with his secretary for some nightly overtime, etc etc.
Also, in our campaigns we eliminated control thoughts and influence etc as spells because we felt they were too powerful and could really frag over the opposition making everything a cake walk.

[Wasabi]

[Thane36425]

[Wasabi]

Trap wards work very well for this. If the mage lacks really good assensing they'll have trouble even noticing the thing.

[Wounded Ronin]

Firstly, I would argue that this thread should have been started in the general SR forum and not the SR4 forum. This has nothing to do with the specific setting and rules of SR4. It is valid for any edition of SR.

Secondly, to answer the question, I would say that if the players are able to pull a run off smoothly then, no, the GM shouldn't magically make combat happen. I think that would hurt suspension of disbelief on the part of the players.

I look at it this way: there's always a probability of failure. Even if the PCs make things happen quietly most of the time they will still eventually botch up on some rolls and there will be combat. Each time there is combat if the combat is tough enough there is a certain chance that a PC will be killed. You just run enough missions and eventually something bad is going to happen.

I am on a Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 kick right now and I'll say that snipers hidden far far away can really ruin the day. KRAAACK.

[Wasabi]

[Wounded Ronin]

[Wasabi]

A poster that only checks this forum will likely post in this forum. Thats why.
I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that not everyone has time to monitor and stay caught up on the other boards on this site.

[knasser]

I regard SR4 to be the default general forum now as I think most people come here by default and it sees more activity. I think it would make a lot more sense if the forum titles were amended to Shadowrun and Shadowrun Previous Editions.

As others pointed out, I would get less feedback if I'd posted it in the Shadowrun forum.

-K.

[deek]

I'd say congrat to the runners...they did a fine job. They did an appropriate amount of legwork, got access to the facility and coordinate the grab like professionals. But I agree, you probably could have used some odd curveballs to challenge them. That doesn't guarantee combat, but that does guarantee problem solving, which is going to be fun as well.

With the exception of a mission to actually kill someone, I keep an open mind to allowing any of the runs I present my group with, at being completed without any combat. That rarely occurs, because most runners are not going to back down from intimidation from a uncharismatic fellow, but, I try to give them every opportunity to avoid combat if they so choose.

So, I think a lot of it has to do with the group and what they have fun playing. The run you described, seems pretty straightforward, but I guarantee you run that with 5 different groups and you are going to get different amounts of combat...honestly, I think that if the players want to get into some combat, they will make it happen whether you have it planned or not:)

[2bit]

[Fezig]

When I look at a full mission I see combat making its way in somewhere. In one of the missions I'm currently writing it is entirely possible for the party to avoid all combat, but for them to do so they'd essentially have to plan perfectly and execute perfectly. If they manage to do that, then they ought to have earned a cake-walk. The sammies will have gotten to stealth in and also help in the intel gathering, so everyone will have been involved. Besides, I doubt I'm the only player who every once in a while enjoys seeing another character pull some wiz moves.

PS - Another way to spice up the heist style of run is to make it a mobile-heist. They have to boost the item well in transport, which is a whole other ballgame and ought to at least get the rigger involved if not the sammie as well.

[deek]

[2bit]

Yeah. But combat gives everyone something to do, so it's easy to fall back on if people are bored.

[deek]

[Aristotle]

I think it's good for some players to experience a "total success". I had two in my last campaign. It proved to the players that they were playing competent characters, but the general lack of excitement of the very slow paced second run, made them understand why the various challenges they faced on so many other runs were necessary to keep the campaign interesting over the long term.

[Lagomorph]

Very nice Knasser, congrats to your team! I do find that you are correct though, when SR is played very well, no combat should ever occur. On the other hand generally half of the characters in the game, and half the BBB are all about combat, so it's supposed to be in there.

I think it's probably just going to be a mix of runs where combat happens, and runs where combat doesn't. My next run will be wetwork to give the sammy something to do since he hasn't lifted much of a finger so far in the current "steal the X" run.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Wasabi]

Yeah its an opinion... just like yours.

[Glyph]

I think that the GM should not go out of his way to throw curveballs at the PCs, and some jobs should have the potential to go smoothly with enough planning and preparation. But even the most meticulous groundwork won't reveal every aspect of an installation's security (unless it is smaller scale, such as retrieving something from an exec's downtown office). Also, Murphy's law should crop up from time to time - not every time things are going "too smoothly", but often enough to keep the PCs on their toes.

Another thing to keep in mind is the atmosphere in SR, where betrayal happens fairly regularly, and where the threat of sudden violence lurks behind even the most banal-appearing social interactions. And finally, Mission Impossible-style break-ins are only one type of run. The PCs can also be hired for bodyguarding, wetwork, robbery of an armored car, and lots of other things.


Personally, I think that most runner teams should have a good mix of stealth, schmoozing, and combat ability. Perfect runs should be possible, but comparatively rare, so you need the combat types to get you out of there. But you also need the talkers and sneakers to find out enough to get you in and out with comparatively minimal fighting. If you get in a running gunfight with some guards on the way out, that's not so bad. But if you charge in headlong, you will be dealing with too much in the way of guards, security measures, and reinforcements to have a chance.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Wasabi]

Its not about HeroQuest. Its about Shadowrun and the current version of Shadowrun is SR4. If the post were about HeroQuest and he had shared it on a forum discussing the latest version of HeroQuest then you might have a fair analogy. Nice hyperbole, though.

Not everyone checks the general discussion forum so by posting it here folks like me who wouldn't have seen it otherwise got a chance to see it. If it matters so very much to you that he post in a forum he doesn't check then cross link it there yourself and those readers will gain the exposure you fight so hard to win them.

[eidolon]

Let's not waste space and emotion arguing over where a thread goes. If we see one that needs to be moved, we'll move it and post the reason.

Likewise, if you ever find that after posting you think your topic would be better suited to a different forum, PM a mod and we'll be glad to move it for you.

With the majority of traffic being in the SR4 forum, it's perfectly fine that this be posted here. After all, the use of the term Hacker in the first post indicates pretty clearly which edition is really being discussed. If any rules discussion were to come up, and this was in the SR forum, it would end up needing to be moved here. If we went on a post-by-post basis, we'd be moving topics all day. ;)