 "Burn all the Edge you want..., ...you ain't getting out alive." |
  |
 May 1 2007, 10:53 PM
Post
#101
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062  |
Can't say I've had to worry about players trying such things. If anyone was stupid like that, the rest of the players would sort them out sharpish.
|
 |
 
|
|
May 1 2007, 11:56 PM
Post
#102
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
What's the point in playing as a bunch of neigh-immortals? I don't kill player characters because I feel "compelled" to. Hell, I don't "kill" them at all. The example with the cows earlier was a joke. Players die when the rules say they should. HoG is good for those times when we want to represent the runner pulling through despite all the odds. It is NOT there to make it impossible for them to ever die unless they specifically want to at that moment. Of course, in the end this is one of those "In MY game..." sort of things. Everyone has their own preferences. But, I ask you: if their fun relies on NEVER dying, why are they playing the game? They can go load up God Mode on Diablo or Half-Life 2 and hack, slash, and shoot to their heart's content. But in MY games, they ARE at risk of dying, because that makes every run they come out alive a success. It means that they're surviving in a cold, uncaring world, and that's something. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 12:39 AM
Post
#103
|
|
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yeah, but then we get into the Hit Points debacle. Not only do you have: "Oh, I've got 12 boxes on my monitor, they can't kill me" attitude, you add in the: "I've got three points of Edge score left, they can't kill me" factor. That makes the game less gritty, less realistic, and more like a video game with X number of lives. Or, as someone else put it, a Paranoia game with 6 clones.
The possibility of instant death is required for any "realistic, gritty" game. You don't have to be out to "get the players", but there should be some fear of dying. |
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 01:06 AM
Post
#104
|
|||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
To torment you? Because they want an interactive GM to challenge them without the risk of "dying"? Edge means that they come out of each run alive. That's all. This is not Diablo, staying alive doesn't necessarily mean anything. A mook can stay alive. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 01:53 AM
Post
#105
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
If a character has to start burning edge too often he will fall behind. Sure he's alive but he won't be that powerful. The mage in our group has burnt edge twice now, once for a bungled binding attempt when nobody was home and another time when an npc got a lucky roll. In the last adventure he went from 1 to 0 edge got 3 karma, and spent it all on getting his edge back. If you base a characters opposition on something like missions where there is a table rating, his total karma keeps going up but he keeps spending it on surviving. eventually he'll be getting shot up so bad each adventure it'll be worth just remaking a new pc. Characters can't have infinite lives because they won't have infinite karma. It'll only be a matter of time till a couple of mooks get some lucky shots off twice in one adventure and he'll die. If a player is maintaining an edge higher than one that costs more karma and he'll be falling even farther behind. Burning edge as written works just fine.
|
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 02:26 AM
Post
#106
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
Right, and that punishes the REST of the group, by having to support a character who can no longer quite pull their own weight. I'd much rather just have the player make a new character, with the exact same amount of karma earned.
Again, that is exactly NOT how anyone wants to die: because some goon gets a lucky roll of the dice. Some players are fine with that, and that makes for stunning RP situations. Seeing someone you're known for years get half their head blown off makes for a rather traumatic experience. But most would either rather die in heroics...or not die at all. Sadly, death comes for you whether you want it to or not, and if you brought it on yourself, I as the GM play the part of the world not giving a frag. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 2 2007, 06:50 AM
Post
#107
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 476 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Fresno, CFS: taking out one durned furriner at a time. Member No.: 5,940 |
What's the point of spending more time in character creation than actually playing said game? Look, there are a multitude of approaches to our hobby and most of them are completely valid, so long as no one gets hurt and those participating have fun. It's obvious that some of the previous posters (and the OP) tastes tend to run towards a more "gamist" perspective. But not everyone approaches rpgs the same way, nor do they derive entertainment in the same way. The gamist derives fun out of playing a rpg almost soley as a game, the character is nothing more than a game piece to move around and character death is treated as a negative repercussion for the player. Hey, cool. All the more power to you. But that's not the only way to play, and condesendingly labeling others who don't enjoy rpg's the same way as some sort of cheater is flamebait to say the least. There are those of us who prefer a more story focused game. And random deaths of the protagonists (the PC's) would be the proverbial monkey wrench. Suddenly their story stops, all the plot threads to those stories are snipped, and now there's this sudden new protagonist plopped down in the middle of the story with little to no pre-established connections to the other protagonists. That scenario is a ton of work for the GM, while at the same time it stretches the suspension of disbelief uncomfortably thin for other players. Do they now just accept this new guy as a boon companion and get back to the story? or do they act appropriately and shelve the previous story for one focused more on the protagonists and the relationship between the new guy and the rest of the group? Now this is not to say there's no such thing as character death, but it should mean something when the character does go out. Did she die defending something she felt was more important than her own life? Did the character's own greed condemn him to carry more loot than he could run with? Or was the character's random death planned by the player and GM in order to explore those themes related to random death and the rp potential within? Again, if the GM is having such problems that killing the player's character seems like the proper (or only) recourse available to him/her, there is an OOC problem that needs to be resolved. It could be that the player wishes to play in a more over-the-top action style of play and the GM wants gritty realism- both approaches are okay, but the GM purposefully killing that player's character for what he believes as stupid antics is the utterly wrong choice. Compromise oocly from both sides so that all can find their own sense of entertainment or walk away from the gaming table if your style of gaming is that important to you. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 08:47 AM
Post
#108
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Warhammer works just fine with Fate Points, thanks. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 10:34 AM
Post
#109
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
After reading through most of the posts I’ve felt compelled to raise a few pointers.
Now, I agree that it isn’t “fun” to be killed by a random mook that got a lucky roll, but that’s essentially the game. If you have spent both all edge and burned your edge pool then you truly ARE shafted three ways to Sunday if you get hit badly enough. Personally I’ve only ever had one character death and that was in 3rd edition, but that was the same thing. No karma left and a burst to the chest after taking a few nicks earlier. The character died – sure, a bit sad but far from unrealistic. If one only ever dies like a “hero” then perhaps one plays the wrong game – don’t get me wrong, I’m all for heroic deaths but one cannot count on it every time. Besides, a person can only be lucky so many times before the reaper come calling – and it could be in the guise of some chiphead the character just don’t view as a threat, and gets shot in the back (by being ambushed, out of edge and edge pool and taking far to much damage…) On the subject on the GM “decides” when a character should die is rather pointless UNLESS it would be something both the GM and the player agrees would be realistic in the game world and the character is out of Edge. In the real world people have survived fall from several kilometres of free fall, or being submerged and “drowned” in ice-cold water yet survived as the cold preserved them. Hell, we have people who have survived getting steel pipes shoved through their heads and being talkative while en route to the hospital. They were all lucky, they all burned edge. The other side is that those without edge tends to splatter all over the landscape when hitting the ground from four kilometres up. Or those that gets crushed by a slab of concrete when a building collapses. They were out of luck, out of edge. Now, standing at the ground zero of a thermonuclear explosion on the other hand might require something more than just edge, that would require divine intervention and that’s not hand of god, that’s a pure bloody miracle. The above would be true - unless the character opens up the bomb, closes his eyes and burn all his edge pool on disarming the nuclear bomb by madly pulling wires in sheer panic. In order for the burning edge the player SHOULD come up with SOME kind of explanation to WHY the character survives, or talk to his GM about it. There is no need to give them negative attributes, negative qualities just because they used a hand of god, and if one feels that it would be reasonable one should always talk to the player first. And finally we have the karma cost. It’s not cheap having to buy back edge all the time and if the character burns edge all the time then the player is doing something very wrong – or the GM is truly out to kill them, or perhaps he makes the game just a bit too hard. Damn…long rant indeed… |
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 01:03 PM
Post
#110
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
And warhammer is quite deadly. Maybe it's my loaded dice but when we ran the Ashes of Middenheim as written it was about halfway through the book that the first PC was killed off for good. At most you start with 3 fate points and they don't last long. Shadowrun you can buy your edge with karma in warhammer the gm gives you your fate points. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 2 2007, 01:48 PM
Post
#111
|
|||||||||||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
If your players are dying off that fast, you either need to scale the NPCs back or give your players some better tips on how to survive. You didn't answer my question, either.
Goes without saying, but we're all here to discuss our method of play and why we prefer them.
Gamist? I assume you're talking about rollplaying, something I abhor. In an RPG, I require RP out of my players. If someone just wants an intelligent dice-roller so they can beat up NPCs, I tell them to go play a video game. Interestingly enough, these are usually the same players who want their characters to never die, despite their insanely stupid actions. And I never meant to insinuate that anyone who runs a less deadly game than I do is "cheating", but I DO think they're missing the point of Shadowrun. You might as well put in resurrection spells and hit points while you're at it. The system is designed to be deadly for a reason: people die in this world, and often. PCs are a cut above most, and if they're canny enough they can dig themselves out of most scrapes. But I'm not going to let a single stat determine the flow of my game. I have no idea what the developers were smoking when they made HoG this edition. It used to be that you could only ever use HoG ONCE, and it burned ALL your karma.
If death means an automatic stop to a plot line, you need to rethink how death works in your games. The story doesn't stop, because LIFE doesn't stop when a teammate dies. If your characters aren't prepared to deal with the death of those around them, how did they get this far in the first place? Some plotlines will end with their death, yes, but many new ones will arise (old friends coming to pay respects, inheritances, etc.). Death allows for some interesting situations. And the team has to hire a runner to replace the fallen one, so how hard is it to find a reason to have a new PC?
Sure it's more work for you, but if you're keeping players alive just to keep down the amount of work you have to do...well, that's your own choice. And no, in my groups the new PC is never just accepted. Old plotlines go on while the group comes to terms with the old PCs death and adapts to the new character.
See, this is the thinking I don't get. That death in Shadowrun HAS to have meaning. One of the overall arching themes of the entire game is how dangerous the world is, and how it can come at any time for you. Death is not some grand thing where a character gets to give a goodbye speech, like in the trids. It comes suddenly and unexpectedly, more often than not. Have you ever seen Firefly? WARNING: Do NOT read if you have yet to see Serenity. [ Spoiler ]
And again, people seems to think that the only way a character can die is if the GM is "out to get them." I don't try to kill players whose actions I see as stupid. I don't have do. The game is set up to kill those players by the consequences of their own actions. The only part where I step in is where HoG is concerned, because God helps those who aren't morons. If you jump out of an airplane with only a rubber raft explosives strapped to the bottom to "cushion" your fall as a parachute, God is far too busy laughing to be bothered to save you
I make it clear to my players that I am closer to the "gritty realist" type of GM. Actions have consequences. Walk downtown with a loaded AK in your hands and expect to be in jail before you can say "Lone Star." That's not to say I don't drop hints or give warnings, but there's always some who just don't get it. And again, I don't kill that character. They kill themselves by putting themselves into the mess in the first place. I don't go out of my way to kill characters off.
Usually, players in my games die once or twice, then realize how the game works and settle in. If they don't like it, then they don't play with us since that's the style myself and my regular players like. In the end, let me say this: Characters should not be immortal. They don't need to die every other game, but if the players don't feel like they're fighting for their lives every gunfight they get into, some of the magic is gone, at least for me. The HoG rules is something I invoke once per character (though I HAVE broken this rule at least once) to avoid what I call "death by dice." If I have a player (or players) who gets so attached to their character that they can't bear to see them die, I immediately stop the game and break out Paranoia. After a session of doing your damnedest to kill each other, you realize just how silly it is to get overly attached to a character that lives in constant, non-heroic peril. You come to realize that no matter how awesome a character is, either through stats or RP, the awesomeness of that character comes from you, the player. |
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
May 2 2007, 02:00 PM
Post
#112
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I don't really know whether this makes Warhammer darker or nicer... the thought of having to spend hard-earned XP on Fate Points somehow reminds me of Sisyphus... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 02:01 PM
Post
#113
|
|||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Miracles like the one in Chicago? Or the ones described in System Failure? The nukes did not have their expected yield? Or simple the bomb was a dud? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 02:07 PM
Post
#114
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
When it comes to nukes, take yer pick. But I’d be wary of the “less than expected yield” when standing next to a Nuke – minimum would still be severe radiation burns and need of medical expertise. The dud option would be preferable. Still, there is a problem if the Bomb expert manages to disarm 6 nukes in a row by “just” burning edge when his skill isn’t enough. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 02:23 PM
Post
#115
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Disarming 6 nukes with burning Edge would cost 6 Edge - and save everyone else, too.
Simply surviving 6 nukes going off costs only 1 Edge... but everone else is on their own. And that's not a gritty choice? :grinbig: |
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 02:32 PM
Post
#116
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
*grins* Heh, HOW lenient is your GM? Edge to survive a Nuke 1.Survive Detonation blast (Blown away with the shockwave inside an armoured vehicle) 2.Survive crash with vehicle (making a ditch a few hundred feet long) 3.Survive the coming firestorm heading your way. 4.Survive the deadly radiation from the nuke now saturating the area and the wreck and YOU. 5.Getting unexpected help from locals, magic, whatnot. 6.Surviving all that without trauma. Damn, I’d say 6 edge to survive that. Illogical? Might be, depends on the circumstances but I’d not be very nice if a character is sitting on a nuke when it explodes, no matter the edge, but I would actually TRY to find some way. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 02:47 PM
Post
#117
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No, burning Edge to surive works for a whole situation, so you are fine.
Burning Edge to automatically succeed, on the other hand, only works for one task... |
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 02:55 PM
Post
#118
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
There's nothing that says when you survive by burning edge that it's going to be all roses and sunshine when you're done. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 02:56 PM
Post
#119
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...[Co-Pilot] ..Target in Sight! Where the hell is Major Kong...? ...[Kong] (riding bomb down)...YEEEEHAAAAAAHHH....!! ...I think he burned all his Edge getting the bomb bay doors to open and stay on the bomb as it dropped. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 03:01 PM
Post
#120
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
That’s rather…impressive managing to BURN your edge in order to commit suicide… |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 2 2007, 03:05 PM
Post
#121
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...but, it saved eveyrone on the bomber and resulted in mission's success (as misguided as it was). Also I would say he already used at least a point to keep the bomber flying NoE after the missile detonated.
|
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 05:09 PM
Post
#122
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
I subscribe to the team-played fully cooperative theory of roleplaying. If there's an option built into the rules for saving a PC from certain death, and as GM you don't allow it, you're being adversarial, and probably also an ass. If you think you're making some sort of point (or scoring one), you need to go play a board game instead- roleplaying is not for you.
It doesn't matter how ridiculous the justification is. SR is a ridiculous game. Work with your player, come up with a fun and creative way for him not to die, Having said that, I guess there's also something to be said for a player who is thoughtless is his/her roleplaying. I've never played with someone who was so careless that a few dropped hints wasn't enough to keep their character from doing something completely stupid, but I know they're out there. I tend to think of this as a problem of whether or not to play with them, or to have an out-of-character discussion about thinking things through. I still don't think there's any point in "punishing" them by killing their character. In short, I don't think there should ever be a situation where there's no way out other than in a body bag. Remember, it's a game, not a competition, we're here to have fun, not to win. Dread Polack |
|
|
|
|
May 2 2007, 08:22 PM
Post
#123
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...or forced servitude to a GD (which usually means PC retirement). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 09:25 PM
Post
#124
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 160 Joined: 14-November 03 From: MSP Metroplex Member No.: 5,822 |
Amen. This actually happened to me in a summer campaign sponsored by my FLGS. It would have bothered me if it had gone on any longer. In last night's game, as a matter of fact, we were just put in a position where we're up against a couple of really scary NPCs who may or may not kill us in the next couple of rounds. They're demanding an "item" from us that we have no intention of giving them (in fact, not all the PCs know what the item is, or that we even have it currently). I came up with a risky plot and took the first couple steps, but it got late, and we had to call it a night. Next Tuesday we'll find out if we'll be burning edge or not. :) Dread Polack |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 2 2007, 09:27 PM
Post
#125
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...as I have mentioned in other threads this has occurred to a couple of my characters (one who only lasted two sessions) both in the same campaign.
The thing is permanently Burning Karma Pool (this was in SR3) was never an option given them. [edit] Actually had a very good PM conversation with Luddite over the whole affair. The first character went through extremely great pains to fake her death & change her identity rather than tuck her tail between her legs and run to Hestaby at Shasta like her comrades did. In the end after ten months RL time And a lot of work on my (the player's) part setting it up it was, alas all for naught as she was "made" the first moment she stepped out of the monastery in Tibet. The GM couldn't stand having a mere PC foil his little Kobayashi Maru play. Trashed one of my coolest Character concepts (Tomoe Sasaki the Beanball throwing Baseball playing Sammy - See Squinky's art thread in the Shadowrun Forum Stickies for a pic of her) |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th December 2025 - 10:39 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.