While I'm all for allowing the burning of Edge to invoke the Hand of God and let a runner pull his rear out of the fire, there are times when even the Hand of God isn't going to be able to save the runner; direct divine intervention might, but we're playing Shadowrun, not D&D, and there are some scenarios where survival, in terms of the rules in the SR universe, is not simply unlikely, it's downright impossible, much less what it would do in terms of suspension of belief.
So here are some scenarios where I wouldn't even bother letting the player burn the edge, because there's no point to it:
Honking off a Great Dragon: you're lunch. your bones go crunch. Any questions?
Having the overflow damage meter go over by more than two or three points: you're already dead--what, they have to make you into paste to get the point across?
Having the overflow damage meter overflow from a called shot to the head: your brains are decorating the room. Kinda hard to come back from that.
Anything involving decompression in a space suit: space is a deadly environment, and should be treated as such.
Anything involving a rupture in your [sub/habitat/hardsuit/etc] more than half-a-mile down: Ditto above. Forget chunky salsa, you'd be a smear on the upholstery.
Being inside a collapsing building: Uh-uh. I've seen too many pictures of building demolitions to believe anything larger than a cockroach has any chance of survival.
~*~
So, anyone got any others, or ones where the PCs might survive, at the expense of their entire Edge attribute?
Full Version: "Burn all the Edge you want...
Cranial Bomb. You're dead. Unless your name is Red Wraith.
Eh, I can see most of those situations (okay, not the sub or space suit) allowing for a second chance.
| QUOTE |
| Honking off a Great Dragon |
Unless the character presents a credible threat to the dragon (unlikely) then it can simply decide to use the PC in some way. Naturally the player will not enjoy this.
| QUOTE |
| Having the overflow damage meter overflow from a called shot to the head |
Instead of going through the PC's skull it pierced the skin, went around the skull, and exited the skin at the back of the skull. This has actually happened a few times IRL, and it creates a very messy exit wound. The PC is out cold, with no stun left and some serious phys damage.
Of course, if the rest of the party is incapacitated that doesn't mean your opponents won't just walk over, check your pulse, say "Huh, how about that?" and shoot you again.
IMO the Hand of God will always allow a PC to survive a specific attack or other damaging event short of being right next to a tac nuke, but doesn't defuse an entire situation.
Burn 1 Edge:
1) GD decides to be to keep you alive.
2) Overflow? Looks can be deceiving.
3) Overflow? That's called shot for better damage, not to the head. Edge says you shot my ass for better damage.
4) The stars align and there is a mana warp in [x] that sends you into the metaplanes.
5) The stars align and there is a mana warp in [x] that sends you into the metaplanes.
6) The stars align and there is a mana warp in [x] that sends you into the metaplanes.
7) Cranial bomb? Bomb's a dud, but detonator scrambed your head some, take some damage but not enough to deadify you.
(Otherwise known as the rules said so, so you as the GM comes up with something that makes sense, that's the point of all that God-like power.)
1) GD decides to be to keep you alive.
2) Overflow? Looks can be deceiving.
3) Overflow? That's called shot for better damage, not to the head. Edge says you shot my ass for better damage.
4) The stars align and there is a mana warp in [x] that sends you into the metaplanes.
5) The stars align and there is a mana warp in [x] that sends you into the metaplanes.
6) The stars align and there is a mana warp in [x] that sends you into the metaplanes.
7) Cranial bomb? Bomb's a dud, but detonator scrambed your head some, take some damage but not enough to deadify you.
(Otherwise known as the rules said so, so you as the GM comes up with something that makes sense, that's the point of all that God-like power.)
So, basically, bibliophile20, you are missing the point:
There is no such thing as 'impossible circumstances' - just a lack of creativity.
There is no such thing as 'impossible circumstances' - just a lack of creativity.
there was an SR novel that started off with a character coming "back from the dead"--she'd been thrown overboard in the middle of a shark frenzy. she survived because there was a free spirit that owed her a favor. i always assumed that the author was describing HoG.
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) |
| While I'm all for allowing the burning of Edge to invoke the Hand of God and let a runner pull his rear out of the fire, there are times when even the Hand of God isn't going to be able to save the runner; direct divine intervention might, but we're playing Shadowrun, not D&D, and there are some scenarios where survival, in terms of the rules in the SR universe, is not simply unlikely, it's downright impossible, much less what it would do in terms of suspension of belief. So here are some scenarios where I wouldn't even bother letting the player burn the edge, because there's no point to it: Honking off a Great Dragon: you're lunch. your bones go crunch. Any questions? Having the overflow damage meter go over by more than two or three points: you're already dead--what, they have to make you into paste to get the point across? Having the overflow damage meter overflow from a called shot to the head: your brains are decorating the room. Kinda hard to come back from that. Anything involving decompression in a space suit: space is a deadly environment, and should be treated as such. Anything involving a rupture in your [sub/habitat/hardsuit/etc] more than half-a-mile down: Ditto above. Forget chunky salsa, you'd be a smear on the upholstery. Being inside a collapsing building: Uh-uh. I've seen too many pictures of building demolitions to believe anything larger than a cockroach has any chance of survival. ~*~ So, anyone got any others, or ones where the PCs might survive, at the expense of their entire Edge attribute? |
I think you're missing the point about Edge. It's not "this extremely bad thing happens and then something good to lessen it's impact". It's more like "this extremely bad thing didn't happen, but something less bad happened instead."
1. Ok, despite the "Dragons are gods" clichè, that particular dragon might not be hungry atm (perhaps he just ate his budget advisor). That means the runner either goes into the meat parlor (alive to keep fresh) or get's used in some way beneficial to the dragon. Might be the Runner has to burn more Edge to survive said mission, but that's what you get for honking a dragon.
2. GM rolls dice "oh shit" player fails the body resistance check. GM: "You want to burn edge here mate". Player "aw crap... alright."
GM: "The bullet hits you in the head, and everything goes black.
3. Edge prevents the space suit from being faulty, for instance it might have a few minutes of us left before being ruined.
4. Again, since the use of edge completely changes the situation, it keeps the habitat etc. from being ruptured.
5. C'mon, being buried in a pile of rubble is a VERY common occurrance for recurring villains in movies etc. It's easy to say a large piece of concrete blocked off the other debris enough to keep the PC alive. Still, being buried and probably unconscious is bad.
Haven't you seen pictures of normal people being dug out of earthquake-shattered buildings? Can't be THAT impossible. Unless of course all the news channels are lying and making these things up...
For me burning Edge is not an option the player has, it's an option the GM can offer the player.
So it pretty much depends on what the GM wants. Of course, he is encouraged to discuss it with the player too.
So it pretty much depends on what the GM wants. Of course, he is encouraged to discuss it with the player too.
| QUOTE (Blade) |
| For me burning Edge is not an option the player has, it's an option the GM can offer the player. So it pretty much depends on what the GM wants. Of course, he is encouraged to discuss it with the player too. |
That's kind of limiting - like being able to use magic for a particular task is not an option of the player but the GM.
I think if you're spent points on Edge you should be able to use it, and using it to save your ass is no less legitimate than using it to reroll dice.
I use a house rule though: Whenever you burn Edge your maximum edge is lowered by one. So it's not easy to just spend karma on edge to live forever.
| QUOTE |
| Anything involving decompression in a space suit: space is a deadly environment, and should be treated as such. |
Decompression in space isn't as dangerous as movies makes it out to be.
http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/vacuum.html
Good chances of surviving if rescued within 90 seconds. 5-10 seconds of consciousness. I'd give them a turn or two where they have to roll to stay conscious... A good space suit would probably be able to seal and repressurize to some extent as well.
This thread was inspired by the "how often do you kill PCs" poll, and it just kinda occurred to me, if PCs can continuously go "Hand of God" then it's impossible to ever truly kill them, and, at least to my mind, if the possibility of PC death is so remote that it's neigh impossible to kill them, then part of the gritty feel, where, to quote one of the shadowtalkers, "someone might cave in your head for your cheap commlink" is gone or at least incredibly weakened.
Then, my mind being the way it is, I started coming up with scenarios; to take one of the ones from above, if Lofwyr or Ghostwalker decides to make an example (and lunch) out of you while you're in their presence? You're screwed. Rip in a spacesuit? You're toast, unless an airlock or a suit patch is right there and you had the foresight to make sure that option was available.
Edit:
EvilP: I know that, but unless your buddies are right there or, like I said above in this post, you had the foresight to bring a patch kit along, those few turns are rather pointless.
Then, my mind being the way it is, I started coming up with scenarios; to take one of the ones from above, if Lofwyr or Ghostwalker decides to make an example (and lunch) out of you while you're in their presence? You're screwed. Rip in a spacesuit? You're toast, unless an airlock or a suit patch is right there and you had the foresight to make sure that option was available.
Edit:
EvilP: I know that, but unless your buddies are right there or, like I said above in this post, you had the foresight to bring a patch kit along, those few turns are rather pointless.
The BBB states that only 1 Hand of God can be used, ever. Unless they changed that in SR4, which they might have but I have only ever used it 1 time. God doesn't want to be continuously bothered by some wanna-be runner who doesn't know how to keep himself out of a deadly situation. It's annoying and God might decide to let the fragger die while sipping a mojito before he intervenes again.
Or in short: Maybe God had both his hands busy at the time?
Or in short: Maybe God had both his hands busy at the time?
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| Unless they changed that in SR4 |
They did.
It's more like Fate Points in Warhammer - you are only dead when you run out of Edge to burn.
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| The BBB states that only 1 Hand of God can be used, ever. Unless they changed that in SR4, which they might have but I have only ever used it 1 time. God doesn't want to be continuously bothered by some wanna-be runner who doesn't know how to keep himself out of a deadly situation. It's annoying and God might decide to let the fragger die while sipping a mojito before he intervenes again. Or in short: Maybe God had both his hands busy at the time? |
The more Edge you have, the more God loves you(in a good way, not in a Bubba the lovetroll way).
Mooks die easy. NPCs and PCs do not as long as they have Edge.
In fact if the writers wanted to stop Edge burn, they would have not put that limit on Twist Fate.
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) |
| This thread was inspired by the "how often do you kill PCs" poll, and it just kinda occurred to me, if PCs can continuously go "Hand of God" then it's impossible to ever truly kill them, and, at least to my mind, if the possibility of PC death is so remote that it's neigh impossible to kill them, then part of the gritty feel, where, to quote one of the shadowtalkers, "someone might cave in your head for your cheap commlink" is gone or at least incredibly weakened. Then, my mind being the way it is, I started coming up with scenarios; to take one of the ones from above, if Lofwyr or Ghostwalker decides to make an example (and lunch) out of you while you're in their presence? You're screwed. Rip in a spacesuit? You're toast, unless an airlock or a suit patch is right there and you had the foresight to make sure that option was available. Edit: EvilP: I know that, but unless your buddies are right there or, like I said above in this post, you had the foresight to bring a patch kit along, those few turns are rather pointless. |
I don't know, Warhammer FRPG is said to be a gritty setting, and the system uses Fate Points much like Edge in Shadowrun (except it cannot be bought or increased by karma/xp).
Basically, Fate Points represents "extra-lives" to give the "heroes" SOME chance of accomplishing something despite the often murderous odds. It doesen't get less gritty if you have to blow Fate points every session.
Edge is luck, pure and simple. Not only super-heroes have it, sometimes even a random passersby can be damn lucky, escaping seemingly impossible odds by stroke of luck.
A childhood friend of mine fell 35' onto the pavement, yet not only surived but also recieved no lasting damage. You could say the angels were watching.... you could say the position of his arm in relation to his head saved his life. You could say he burned his Edge point
The setting is still gritty... alot of people die brutal deaths. But is having your PCs head caved in for a comlink any fun way to go out for a runner? After all, even though the player may burn edge to avoid certain death, he is not required to. And really, playing characters with very low or 0 edge is not as fun. So in fitting situation, such as when the gunslinger is cornered in the top-security building while scores of elite security teams rush in, riddling his body with bullets while he still fires his twin SMGs.... Heck, I might go for that!
I think that HoG saves PCs from individual problems but not situations as a whole. Let's say that Chuck is blown out of an airlock with no space suit. His first HoG is to survive the immediate decompression as he is sucked into the void. His second HoG is to grab an antenna and avoid drifting away in space. His third HoG is to find an airlock before he passes out or to summon rescue.
Now, how much Edge does Chuck have left and how much fun is the Gm going to have with him?
Now, how much Edge does Chuck have left and how much fun is the Gm going to have with him?
Definitely true. I've GMed the hand of god quite a few times, but the only time I've used it myself was to take an uber-powerful NPC out with me.
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| I think that HoG saves PCs from individual problems but not situations as a whole. Let's say that Chuck is blown out of an airlock with no space suit. His first HoG is to survive the immediate decompression as he is sucked into the void. His second HoG is to grab an antenna and avoid drifting away in space. His third HoG is to find an airlock before he passes out or to summon rescue. Now, how much Edge does Chuck have left and how much fun is the Gm going to have with him? |
This is not fun, just sadistic. Burning of edge should pretty much save you from the situation, not just a minor part of it.
In this situation, the edge is burned to either avoid being blown out of the airlock in the first place, or grabbing hold and pulling yourself in before you lose consciousness.
Of course if something unrelated happens, he'd have to burn edge again. If after barely avoiding being pushed out the airlock, the enemy pulls out a gun and blows his head off, that requires a new edge burned as being shot and being exposed to space is unrelated.
Otherwise we'd have stupid situations were being overrun by stampeding bulls will kill you many times over and require burning edge until you run out so you auto-die anyway.
Oh, and yeah in WH it is recommended not to require players to spend more than 1Fate Point to survive a situation. Different game, same principle.
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| I think that HoG saves PCs from individual problems but not situations as a whole. |
The RAW thinks otherwise... it's pretty clear that it saves you from the whole situation, so you live to fight another day.
You live till the next HoG, or you run out of Edge to burn.
If the GM wants to kill a PC, what the RAW says doesn't matter.
If the GM wants to kill a PC, what the RAW says doesn't matter.
...I still only give one HoG per character. Hell, she has better things to do than mollycoddle PCs that do stupid things all the time & expect her to pull their butt out again and again.
Just to point out, burning Edge HoG-style just keeps the character alive, it doesn't completely keep them immune from their own stupidity. Just because they live through something, doesn't mean that they don't pay the piper and face the music.
- They tick off Lofwyr and spend the point to avoid being instant lunch or charcoal briquettes, and I'm sure that Saeder-Krupp R&D will end up with a new "volunteer" for their latest prototype cyberware that has a 70% risk of scrambling someone's brain...
- They screw Johnson and get shot by a God-spot sniper with a Barrett and a few rounds of aimed called shot, and by luck the wind picks up and causes it to graze the back of their head, to end up missing a small chunk of cerebellum that leaves them a quadriplegic that can do nothing but blink, at least until they spend the nuyen or sell their souls for the hideously expensive medical procedures and cyber/bio that might eventually have them walking again...
- They're captured instead of killed by Ares/Knight Errant security, who decides to use them to point out the flaws in Lone Star coverage of the city and publicly announce their capture, then turn them over to Lone Star for processing as a criminal -- crime statistics go up, prison population increases, all these numbers cause Lone Star to lose face, and our shadowrunner is now Bubba the Troll's love interest in a supermax facility somewhere offshore...
In 4th edition:
Hand of God is the escape clause for NPCs. PCs do not use Hand of God.
Escape Certain Death is the edge use that PCs use to escape certain death.
3rd edition Hand of God is very similar to 4th edition Escape Certain Death, except ECD can be repeated and is less costly.
Hand of God is the escape clause for NPCs. PCs do not use Hand of God.
Escape Certain Death is the edge use that PCs use to escape certain death.
3rd edition Hand of God is very similar to 4th edition Escape Certain Death, except ECD can be repeated and is less costly.
| QUOTE (Dakhran the Dark) |
| ...and our shadowrunner is now Bubba the Troll's love interest in a supermax facility somewhere offshore... |
...that's Bubba the Love Troll...
@Moon-Hawk, Thanks for the clarification. I still often think in "old edition" terms which is why I let PCs use it only once and still find myself slipping up & saying "Karma pool"
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| In 4th edition: Hand of God is the escape clause for NPCs. PCs do not use Hand of God. |
Tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. You can change the editions, but not the players, and for the last five years, we've been saying "decker", "HoG", and "fragger", we're not about to switch from "my decker HOGs it" to "my hacker pulls an ECD" overnight...
Hell, I still catch myself saying "THAC0" when playing that other game...
Here's how edge saves you from honking off to the great dragon. Hell it doesn't even need to be edge.
The Dragon finds you funny.
Say your an elite 500BP shadowrunner Mage, combat adept, Street Samurai. What ever.
And some drunk idiot os honking off to you(what does honking off mean?). That isn't always motive for murder. You might just kick the crap out of him.
Here's what I see happends dragon knocks you out steals all your stuff and dumps you naked in another country. Say your in Denver. Well welcome to China.
Hand of God can work in a lot of ways say through the intervention of others.
Say your trapped in a back ally about to be blown away by corp security. You burn your point of edge and instead of being turned into swiss cheese.
Someone stunballs the entire ally and you wake up in some Shaman's hut. He saved you because he is an enemy of that corp and figures the enemy of my enemy is a friend.
Or maybe it was gel rounds and instead of being dead your just captured and the next run is saving your sorry ass.
Say you get blown out an airlock. Well instead of the guy pushing the button, your ally showed up and gets the chance to blow him away before he blows you away.
Say your being trampled by a stamped of bulls. You spend burn your 1 edge and you get thrown clear instead of being trampled. OR maybe you just live because people have survived stampedes before.
REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:
This happaned while filming the lord of the rings
During one of the shots filming the charge of the Rohirrim, a horse rider fell off the back of his horse. All the horses that came behind him miraculously managed to either miss or avoid him.
The Dragon finds you funny.
Say your an elite 500BP shadowrunner Mage, combat adept, Street Samurai. What ever.
And some drunk idiot os honking off to you(what does honking off mean?). That isn't always motive for murder. You might just kick the crap out of him.
Here's what I see happends dragon knocks you out steals all your stuff and dumps you naked in another country. Say your in Denver. Well welcome to China.
Hand of God can work in a lot of ways say through the intervention of others.
Say your trapped in a back ally about to be blown away by corp security. You burn your point of edge and instead of being turned into swiss cheese.
Someone stunballs the entire ally and you wake up in some Shaman's hut. He saved you because he is an enemy of that corp and figures the enemy of my enemy is a friend.
Or maybe it was gel rounds and instead of being dead your just captured and the next run is saving your sorry ass.
Say you get blown out an airlock. Well instead of the guy pushing the button, your ally showed up and gets the chance to blow him away before he blows you away.
Say your being trampled by a stamped of bulls. You spend burn your 1 edge and you get thrown clear instead of being trampled. OR maybe you just live because people have survived stampedes before.
REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:
This happaned while filming the lord of the rings
During one of the shots filming the charge of the Rohirrim, a horse rider fell off the back of his horse. All the horses that came behind him miraculously managed to either miss or avoid him.
I don't expect you to change your terminology, but since a lot of people are new to SR in 4th edition, I thought it was worth saying once, for clarity's sake. Now everyone knows that ECD used to be called HoG, so when people say HoG they may well be referring to either ECD or HoG.
Carry on.
Carry on.
on the honking off a great dragon front, I had a team run through that module on great dragons, and obviously in the end they had to honk off on of two great dragons... lofwyr or hestaby. I couldn't see either standing idly by and letting them get away with it, so I had lofwyr start killing all their contacts. He couldn't do anything to the pc's directly, but every one of their contacts and their contacts families etc started dying, dojo's started being blown up etc. So the players decided to retire to Shasta (become NPC's) except opne who tried to have a genetic makeover done. Unfortuinately for her, that kind of cutting edge tech is exactly lofwyr's alley.
As to the exploding building, depends on the building and the bomb. WTC yeah that's not survivable. A wharehouse and the person has a ton of armor on thats feasible if the bomb isn't too large.
As to the exploding building, depends on the building and the bomb. WTC yeah that's not survivable. A wharehouse and the person has a ton of armor on thats feasible if the bomb isn't too large.
...GDs are overrated as plot devices. Nasty mind you, but like IEs, still overrated. Give me some good ol' fashioned Corporate Political Intrigue...
Well some players will let their characters die if it turns out bad. Usually its just bad luck that many players will use this.
Also, encourage them to let their characters go if it comes to it by letting them build new characters of equal power (E,g. BP and/or karma).
Also, encourage them to let their characters go if it comes to it by letting them build new characters of equal power (E,g. BP and/or karma).
...when it comes to dealing with GDs as a player, I actually prefer instant death. Otherwise I have just given the GM another NPC that I worked hard to develop.
@Xenith: I like the idea of letting player design a more "experienced" character rather than making them play a noob. It's like in that "other" game having to play a 1st level when the rest of the party is 8th.
@Xenith: I like the idea of letting player design a more "experienced" character rather than making them play a noob. It's like in that "other" game having to play a 1st level when the rest of the party is 8th.
| QUOTE |
| on the honking off a great dragon front, I had a team run through that module on great dragons, and obviously in the end they had to honk off on of two great dragons... lofwyr or hestaby. I couldn't see either standing idly by and letting them get away with it, so I had lofwyr start killing all their contacts. He couldn't do anything to the pc's directly, but every one of their contacts and their contacts families etc started dying, dojo's started being blown up etc. So the players decided to retire to Shasta (become NPC's) except opne who tried to have a genetic makeover done. Unfortuinately for her, that kind of cutting edge tech is exactly lofwyr's alley. |
I don't really mean to threadjack here, but if this is coming from Survival of the Fittest you really kinda screwed your PCs. I ran the same module, and the PCs successfully ran through the ritual and gave the victory to Hestaby. Rather than seeking revenge, directly or indirectly (IIRC the protection afforded by the contest ends along with the contest) the other GDs filed the runners under "competent, honest, and honorable." Dragons don't like to lose, but when you're a few thousand years old you probably learn to do so with a modicum of grace. While it never came up, had Lofwyr ever needed deniable assets he knew to be as close to incorruptible as possible he would have used the PCs.
Also, from the fiction at the back Lof was looking to maybe get a little of that Hestaby action, so he'd probably avoid messing with her pet runners.
| QUOTE (Luddite) |
| Also, from the fiction at the back Lof was looking to maybe get a little of that Hestaby action, so he'd probably avoid messing with her pet runners. |
Actually, the mating proposal was entirely based on the fact that Hestaby beat Lofwyr - and thus proved her worth as a potential mating partner.
Though the runners are protected by the ritual, L is vindictive and the ultimate puppeteer - it's only a question of time until the dish is served.
A player should never count on edge/HoG to pull him out of a clearly fatal situation going in. It's all there to save your behind when you roll a botch on a check to do something like jump out of a burning boat or evade death via direct missile impact. 
yeah, i started to run a game where each character had to try and kill all the others. one of the characters submitted had no stats, no skills, a detonator, and as much C12 as he could physically carry. his plan was to drop the C12 in the room the characters started in, jump out the window, detonate the C12, and HoG to survive the fall.
..and what would keep the others from HoGing the C12?
Wait!
Uhm... nothing...
Uhm... nothing...
Decompressing spacesuit: your air venting into space blows you back into an airlock/towards your waiting buddies/wherever, and isn't leaking fast enough to kill you before they can patch the suit or get you into atmosphere. You're gonna be spending a while in a hospital, though...
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| ..and what would keep the others from HoGing the C12? |
now that you remind me, i believe he had two bombs. one of them was in some kind of special setup that would protect it from the first blast. the game went bust before it ever got started--the players ended up just trying to one-up each other in terms of over-the-top rules hackery.
Im cool with the new Edge rules. Again, im all about having fun, and if the players have fun with the Edge as it is, im happy. (Yes, ive played with people who preferred NOT to be helped, or at least more than once. It's their choice to use it.)
That being said, i have limits, too. While there are instances of amazing survival in a bout anything(no, headshots are not always fatal. Yes, people have survived parachutes not opening. And so on). If the person is, say, strapped with umpteen kilos of C-12...well, then maybe it all didn't go off and they only have their limbs blown off like the guy in that movie(johnny's got his gun i think? They might not be happy.) Sometimes, stuff just leaves them with damage so bad they might think that sometimes dead is better.
Things that utterly destroy the body would be about it, though. If youre body's destroyed there is nothing TO come back from. BUT, again, one can assume the Edge burning causes this NOT to happen.
That being said, i wont go out of my way to screw over the edge rules. If they could survive it, why not? In addition, there are plenty of situations where the PCs could be captured instead; the ol dead men tell no tales. Really, i leave it too the party. If they want it deadlier, ill limit to once per campaign or none at all. If they like it how it is, good also, but i also dont believe in rewarding people who sit there and jump off a building repeadetly and burn an Edge point to survive each time. My patience for stupidity has its limits.
That being said, i have limits, too. While there are instances of amazing survival in a bout anything(no, headshots are not always fatal. Yes, people have survived parachutes not opening. And so on). If the person is, say, strapped with umpteen kilos of C-12...well, then maybe it all didn't go off and they only have their limbs blown off like the guy in that movie(johnny's got his gun i think? They might not be happy.) Sometimes, stuff just leaves them with damage so bad they might think that sometimes dead is better.
Things that utterly destroy the body would be about it, though. If youre body's destroyed there is nothing TO come back from. BUT, again, one can assume the Edge burning causes this NOT to happen.
That being said, i wont go out of my way to screw over the edge rules. If they could survive it, why not? In addition, there are plenty of situations where the PCs could be captured instead; the ol dead men tell no tales. Really, i leave it too the party. If they want it deadlier, ill limit to once per campaign or none at all. If they like it how it is, good also, but i also dont believe in rewarding people who sit there and jump off a building repeadetly and burn an Edge point to survive each time. My patience for stupidity has its limits.
| QUOTE (Dakhran the Dark) |
| Personally, if their near-death experience isn't CLUE-worthy, if it just happens in normal play due to crit-glitching or something, I'll give them a more-or-less complete bye on death. But if they're about to become chunky due to their own actions, they might be alive, but they'll still pay...and hopefully, learn... |
That's how I see it too.
If you're at 3 boxes of overflow because the troll with the LMG rolled really well, and you rolled really badly after an extended firefight, HoG is your "Just barely made it" clause. You're standing, with 1 box to go. Or possibly unconcious, to await the outcome of the fight.
And trust me, losing a point of Edge *hurts* - I know you can spend Karma on it, but I'd make you spend from your "true" Edge, personally.
If you're at 3 boxes of overflow because you walked up to the GD and punched it in the nose to show how badass you are? You didn't die. But you're probably not a playable PC any more either, for one of many possible reasons.
Doesn't "Burning" mean it does come from the "true Edge", rather than the spending of a temporary point?
I think lorechaser meant that when it comes time to buy your Edge back up, you will be paying for that point based off its 'Real Value' instead of its Current Value.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| I think lorechaser meant that when it comes time to buy your Edge back up, you will be paying for that point based off its 'Real Value' instead of its Current Value. |
Indeed.
If you had 4 Edge, and you burned a point to survive, you're at 3. But I'd require you to spend Karma as though you were going from 4 to 5.
This isn't RAW, and is in fact opposite how magic is dealt with.
I don't care.
I also would require adepts to spend for their true magic - 2(6) would cost 6->7 to gain a point, even though it's been said that it should be 2->3
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| Decompressing spacesuit: your air venting into space blows you back into an airlock/towards your waiting buddies/wherever, and isn't leaking fast enough to kill you before they can patch the suit or get you into atmosphere. You're gonna be spending a while in a hospital, though... |
I don't know 'bout that. There are certain scenarios like the OP posted, where HOG really shouldn't save you, and in my opinion that certainly qualifies. If it happend to my character, I wouldn't contest it. Sometimes, you're just plain fragged.
Certain extenuating contingincies could certainly change the circumstances, of course: Say, the decompressing runner has an internal cyberlung w/oxygen reserve? I'd give him a fighting chance to do something to save himself from the hard vacuum by burning some edge to come up w/ a makeshift patch/solution, Or if they're right next to an open airlock when it happens. Then I might let them burn a point of edge every round to cycle the door until it opens.
..if you have a mean to survive by yourself, you don't have to burn edge if you succeed.
You burn Edge if you don't.
You burn Edge if you don't.
Basically, if you want to houserule Edge to not be the be-all, end-all savior attribute of the game, feel free. I let it work for everything.
I usually find more interesting stuff happens when characters survive, is all. You don't lose out on all those PC/NPC relationships, intercharacter banter, etc, and there's nothing like being unconcious and bleeding ("jeez... Nemesis needs to lose some weight"), heavily irradiated ("okay, next time, I'm driving"), exposed to an exotic disease ("my what fell off?!?"), or suffering from being that 10% of the population after an LD90 dose of Seven-7 ("*coughcoughhackhackwheeze* Soyburger, please. *gaggaghaaackspitcoughcough*") to make life amusing.
I usually find more interesting stuff happens when characters survive, is all. You don't lose out on all those PC/NPC relationships, intercharacter banter, etc, and there's nothing like being unconcious and bleeding ("jeez... Nemesis needs to lose some weight"), heavily irradiated ("okay, next time, I'm driving"), exposed to an exotic disease ("my what fell off?!?"), or suffering from being that 10% of the population after an LD90 dose of Seven-7 ("*coughcoughhackhackwheeze* Soyburger, please. *gaggaghaaackspitcoughcough*") to make life amusing.
| QUOTE (MadHamish) |
| I don't know 'bout that. There are certain scenarios like the OP posted, where HOG really shouldn't save you...<snip> Sometimes, you're just plain fragged. |
...spontaneous Metahuman combustion
...Thor shots
...orbital bovine bombardment
...Drop Bears
All this HoG talk makes me think of that book with kid stealth. Did he burn edge when he was tossed in the water with his feet in cement and had to cut his own legs off to survive, or was that just how bad ass he was.
| QUOTE (odinson) |
| All this HoG talk makes me think of that book with kid stealth. Did he burn edge when he was tossed in the water with his feet in cement and had to cut his own legs off to survive, or was that just how bad ass he was. |
Ok at that point you really are screwed no amount of edge is going to save you. Your supposed to burn the point before it goes that far.
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