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fistandantilus4.0
No, Kid Stealth was a bad ass becuase he had some CIV in a compartment in his IIRC cyber arm, and used it to blow his legs off, putting the charge pretty much on the block, and taking his feet and I'm sure a good chunk of his legs with it. HoG would be used to keep from bleeding to death maybe or survive the shock. That's why I dislike the heavy use of HoG that SR4 allows for. What's so bad ass about Kid Stealth if any wannabe can piss off a syndicate, get cement shoes, tossed in the Sound, and go "Oh shit, Hand of God, I live!"
toturi
If you are a PC, you ain't a wannabe. A wannabe is one of those goons the GM throws at you, you know the ones that share an Edge pool.
Jack Kain
Well I believe HoG is reserved for GM's discretion as to it working. Saving you from a bad roll, not being stupid.

In games where death is "The End" you need a tool to escape from that bad luck.
If they did something royally stupid they likely deserve what ever they get. But how is fun when you die from a bad roll? Sounds like one of the worst possible ways to go. Right up there with you walk out of your house and a sniper shoots you dead as you walk down the street.

Not just any wanna be can do that. Grunts have group edge for example not their own. The fact grunts get any edge at all is rather unusually. In most games "edge" or hero points are reserved for PC's and maybe some Elite NPC's.

Maybe instead of burning edge you have 3 strikes.
When your 3 strikes are up your out.
This doesn't mean you escape consequences.
You may have a new cyberlimb, a criminal sin or some new negative quality. But your not dead.
Cain
One other problem is that the Edge you burn has little relation to your Edge pool. So, even if you've spent every last point of edge, you've still got all of it to burn.

Also remember, HoG means you live. It is not a "Pass Go, get 200 nuyen" sort of deal. Like Jack pointed out, it could mean a new cyberlimb. Or it could mean you're in jail sharing a room with Bubba the Love Troll. The list goes on and on-- the character will suffer greatly, but he will live to see another day.

Granted, this makes characters impossible to kill. Which is something I dislike about SR4. However, you can make their lives enough of a living hell thet they want to die; a drastic option, but one that works.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Cain)
One other problem is that the Edge you burn has little relation to your Edge pool. So, even if you've spent every last point of edge, you've still got all of it to burn.

You do remember that a burned point of edge reduces you edge. IE if you have an edge of 5 and you burn a point so you survive being thrown off the top of a sky scraper or being riddled with bullets your Edge is now 4 until to raise it again with karma.
Cain
Yes, but your Edge pool isn't necessarily affected. Let's say you haven't spent a single point of edge: no longshot tests, no extra dice, nothing of the sort. You get tossed off a building and HoG, your edge drops from 5 to 4. Now instead, let's say that you've been spending Edge like candy, with two rerolls and three extremely broken longshot tests. You get tossed off the same building, HoG in the exact same way, and suffer the exact same penalty. You're actually punished for conserving your Edge pool; in one case you lose an Edge pool point, in the other you don't.
Ravor
Really? I've always run it so that you had to actually have some Edge saved back to be able to burn a point and pull of a HoG.
Cain
By the RAW, no. They make a very clear distinction between burning Edge and spending Edge pool. They're separate animals.
odinson
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
No, Kid Stealth was a bad ass becuase he had some CIV in a compartment in his IIRC cyber arm, and used it to blow his legs off, putting the charge pretty much on the block, and taking his feet and I'm sure a good chunk of his legs with it. HoG would be used to keep from bleeding to death maybe or survive the shock. That's why I dislike the heavy use of HoG that SR4 allows for. What's so bad ass about Kid Stealth if any wannabe can piss off a syndicate, get cement shoes, tossed in the Sound, and go "Oh shit, Hand of God, I live!"

Didn't he also have an internal air tank that let him stay under water for quite some time too.


If a pc ever got captured in my game and was going to pull that Hog when he found out he was in cement shoes and about to be throwen into the water i'd let him find that they hadn't taken his combat knife and make him cut his own legs off. Otherwise he's toast.
toturi
QUOTE (odinson)
If a pc ever got captured in my game and was going to pull that Hog when he found out he was in cement shoes and about to be throwen into the water i'd let him find that they hadn't taken his combat knife and make him cut his own legs off. Otherwise he's toast.

He gets swallowed up by a whale which promptly beaches itself and regurgitates him. Now that's burning your Edge. Otherwise, it is just run-of-the-mill spend-an-Edge for the longshot Sleight of Hand to hide the knife.
Ravor
QUOTE (Cain)
By the RAW, no. They make a very clear distinction between burning Edge and spending Edge pool. They're separate animals.


And the list of my House Rules grows ever longer... cyber.gif
Xenith
Thing about this Edge thing is to do this the PC has to have an Edge left in his pool and perma burn that entire point of edge, lowering his rating. Thats really a big thing to do and the GM has the right to levy many negative qualities on you, any of which could cripple an effective character.

Give a Street Sami Combat Paralysis and you likely have a retired character. Install a cyberlimb and a weak immune system on a focused mage and he might never recover/catch up. But if they over come those limits, it makes the story all the more interesting. A Street Sami can eventually get rid of the flaw (thru lots of therapy) and the Mage could turn his limbs into an advantage as well as a weakness.

And rather than getting rid of the character, you could instead talk with the players and explain that their character will be out of commission for some time despite the burned Edge, and they'll have to have a replacement character until which time the original recovers/returns.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Xenith)
Thing about this Edge thing is to do this the PC has to have an Edge left in his pool and perma burn that  entire point of edge, lowering his rating.

As said, burning Edge happens completely independent from Edge Pool.

QUOTE (Xenith)
Thats really a big thing to do and the GM has the right to levy many negative qualities on you, any of which could cripple an effective character.

No.
The RAW tells us that GM is not obliged to let the character scape unscathed.
That's a long way to 'drop negative qualities on the sucker until he can't even crawl'.

The character already lost the Karma worth the point of Edge - no need to go out of your way and make him effectively loose Karma worth the Negative Quality.


Replacement characters are a nice way of bridging the few sessions needed for recovery, but if you choose that solution, it's your duty as GM to have a appropriate NPC prepared.
Xenith
If thats what you want, whatever. I interpret its more harsh than you I suppose. Its not to say I'd universally levy negative qualities every time, just if the situation calls for it. And the characers are not out, just at a disadvantage. You're over exaggerating. I'd prefer the "make a new character til your old one recovers/returns" option about half the time. Honestly, its all about if the player is having fun. Some enjoy the twists. Somtimes its better to simply deny the option. The spirits are rare to give this after all...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Xenith)
Its not to say I'd universally levy negative qualities every time, just if the situation calls for it.

The point is that, as a situation involving burning Edge always is just a question of creative rationale, one can not really say it can call for it.

QUOTE (Xenith)
And the characers are not out, just at a disadvantage. You're over exaggerating.

Concerning the effects proposed by you, I'm not... you even specifically note that they are intended to cripple the character.

QUOTE (Xenith)
I'd prefer the "make a new character til your old one recovers/returns" option about half the time.

Usually it's a better Idea to simply hand over an NPC already involved - it keeps the plot smooth.

QUOTE (Xenith)
Somtimes its better to simply deny the option. The spirits are rare to give this after all...

..which happens when the characters run out of Fate Points, errr, Edge.
Honestly, I don't understand the problem.
Xenith
The problem is that sometimes story and fun take precedence to game mechanics, even if it does mean being a little mean to a character (not a player).

A second chance at life is a very big thing, even for a fictional character. My players seem to understand that. Maybe I have exceptional players.

And Can was the word I believe. It all depends on the situation. Ask my players, I tend to be more than fair and even if I levy negative qualities, I will talk with the player and work out what they feel is fair. Perhaps I had simply assumed everyone did that.

Edit: I'll add something else. These are suggestions, NOT rulings. Only the creators have that. The RAW is the RAW, but, you know, sometimes people like an opinion or an option. Thats what this is. Deal.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Xenith)
The problem is that sometimes story and fun take precedence to game mechanics, even if it does mean being a little mean to a character (not a player).

Ah, that problem... yeah, it's indeed one - usually called railroading.
Look, it's simply: The thing about RPG is that there is no preset 'story' that is so all-important that certain things must or mustn't happen... so, either way the dice fall, it's fine.

QUOTE (Xenith)
A second chance at life is a very big thing, even for a fictional character. My players seem to understand that. Maybe I have exceptional players.

Oh... who would disagree with that - that would make those non-exceptional players, right? sarcastic.gif
The point is that sometimes, you hardly notice that 'second chance' - the worst case just didn't happen, you got lucky. Emphasizing miracles in a dark world is usually contra-productive.
Xenith
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 28 2007, 02:27 PM)
QUOTE (Xenith)
The problem is that sometimes story and fun take precedence to game mechanics, even if it does mean being a little mean to a character (not a player).

Ah, that problem... yeah, it's indeed one - usually called railroading.
Look, it's simply: The thing about RPG is that there is no preset 'story' that is so all-important that certain things must or mustn't happen... so, either way the dice fall, it's fine.

QUOTE (Xenith)
A second chance at life is a very big thing, even for a fictional character. My players seem to understand that. Maybe I have exceptional players.

Oh... who would disagree with that - that would make those non-exceptional players, right? sarcastic.gif
The point is that sometimes, you hardly notice that 'second chance' - the worst case just didn't happen, you got lucky. Emphasizing miracles in a dark world is usually contra-productive.

OF COOOURSE theres not set story. "Great story" rarely goes hand in hand with railroading. I've played and ran enough rpg games to know. Dice, btw, should not always have to dictate what happens... this particular rule is proof that the creators don't think that either.

And stop with this putting words in my mouth. Don't even start with thise "Well since you're players are so awesome I guess you think others suck." I'm tempted to reply with something vulgar... But what you said was judgmental and childish. Of course I don't think that. Different people have different play styles, and I'm very flexible as are my players. Others are flexible in different ways, or perhaps not so flexible. As long as they have fun its fine.

In the end its up to the GM and players. No question, right? I'm stating my style and what I think might work for those with perhaps a more gritty style.

Miracles in a dark world counter-productive?? Depends on how dark. Miracles constantly happen in Shadowrun. Have you read the history? They're even refered to as miracles. rotfl.gif rotfl.gif And empahsizing them? Well maybe not if thats you're style. I prefer to emphasize it because of the point it brings to the player and character. Its RARE. Use whats left wisely... or waste it. Its up to you. The world is full of choices.

And sometimes people DO know when they've had second chances. How about that guy that got a steel rod through his skull and lived... and survived with almost no brain damage(well a little motor damage, but he walked and could use his arm when they said he wouldn't)?!
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Xenith)
And sometimes people DO know when they've had second chances.

If you think this should be rare, then use such rationale rarely. wink.gif

As it was pointed out in this thread, surviving inescapable death could very well be explained that said situation never happend that way.
Xenith
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 28 2007, 02:55 PM)
QUOTE (Xenith @ Apr 28 2007, 10:46 PM)
And sometimes people DO know when they've had second chances.

If you think this should be rare, then use such rationale rarely. wink.gif

As it was pointed out in this thread, surviving inescapable death could very well be explained that said situation never happend that way.

Hmm... I've nudged a few dice and been a bit forgetful of npcs actions before... XD

Its all good. I'm particularly nice to new players, sooo... XD

(shh! dont tell)
Rotbart van Dainig
Cheating is rather bad habit - and as we all know, kicking the habit can be quite hard.

Thus, I'd rather burn Edge than have to (have the GM) cheat. nyahnyah.gif
Luddite
QUOTE
Thus, I'd rather burn Edge than have to (have the GM) cheat.


It isn't cheating if the GM is doing it. wink.gif

There have been more than a few times I've stuck the PCs in a situation that was far more deadly than I had anticipated and I had to fudge quite a bit. I don't see a need for them to spend edge (or whatever) 'cause I screwed up.
Shev
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 27 2007, 11:33 PM)
If you are a PC, you ain't a wannabe.

Clearly, someone needs to read the CLUE files.

For me, HoG is a case-by-case basis. If you died doing something INCREDIBLY stupid (extra points if the GM was trying to hint at said stupidity) then all the Edge in the world won't keep Darwin from working his magic.

On the other hand, if it was a lucky sniper shot, an ambush that you just didn't see, a spell that critically glitched...THOSE are Edge-worthy.

But there's a reason we have orbital cow cannons. Hey, THERE'S a way to solve the whole HoG issue right there...

"I survive the dragon's wrath!"
"Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit."
"Aw, crap...ok, HoG again."
"Oh, look, another cow."
"..."
"Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge. Have a new character sheet."
eidolon
QUOTE (Shev)
"I survive the dragon's wrath!"
"Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit."
"Aw, crap...ok, HoG again."
"Oh, look, another cow."
"..."
"Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge. Have a new character sheet.."

biggrin.gif

Orbital Bovine Bombardment™: for when you really, really want a character to die.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Luddite)
QUOTE
Thus, I'd rather burn Edge than have to (have the GM) cheat.

It isn't cheating if the GM is doing it.

That's usually the worst kind of cheating, for it certainly affects everyone.
toturi
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (Shev @ Apr 30 2007, 09:46 AM)
"I survive the dragon's wrath!" 
"Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit." 
"Aw, crap...ok, HoG again."
"Oh, look, another cow."
"..."
"Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge.  Have a new character sheet.."

biggrin.gif

Orbital Bovine Bombardment™: for when you really, really want a character to die.

Drastic situation: GM wants PC dead. Burn Edge. PC doesn't die, no matter how hard the GM wants PC dead unless GM invokes "I break the rules" rule(which creates a feedback to destroy said rule and the rule destroys itself).
Cain
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (eidolon @ May 1 2007, 01:16 AM)
QUOTE (Shev @ Apr 30 2007, 09:46 AM)
"I survive the dragon's wrath!" 
"Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit." 
"Aw, crap...ok, HoG again."
"Oh, look, another cow."
"..."
"Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge.  Have a new character sheet.."

biggrin.gif

Orbital Bovine Bombardment™: for when you really, really want a character to die.

Drastic situation: GM wants PC dead. Burn Edge. PC doesn't die, no matter how hard the GM wants PC dead unless GM invokes "I break the rules" rule(which creates a feedback to destroy said rule and the rule destroys itself).

You have a point. If the only way you can kill a character is to resort to the SMITE!™ tactic, then you've got problems. Unfortunately, I can't see any way to insta-kill any character with a postive Edge score, not within the rules at least.
mfb
easy: carpet bombing. there are certain to be more explosions than the character has Edge.
Rotbart van Dainig
Burning Edge covers a whole situation... and the intent of the rule is that the character survives.

Unless you revoke that rule, there is no getting around it.
Ranneko
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 30 2007, 06:22 PM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ May 1 2007, 01:16 AM)
QUOTE (Shev @ Apr 30 2007, 09:46 AM)
"I survive the dragon's wrath!" 
"Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit." 
"Aw, crap...ok, HoG again."
"Oh, look, another cow."
"..."
"Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge.  Have a new character sheet.."

biggrin.gif

Orbital Bovine Bombardment™: for when you really, really want a character to die.

Drastic situation: GM wants PC dead. Burn Edge. PC doesn't die, no matter how hard the GM wants PC dead unless GM invokes "I break the rules" rule(which creates a feedback to destroy said rule and the rule destroys itself).

You have a point. If the only way you can kill a character is to resort to the SMITE!™ tactic, then you've got problems. Unfortunately, I can't see any way to insta-kill any character with a postive Edge score, not within the rules at least.

Personally, I feel that if you need to insta-kill a character, your game has problems that probably should be resolved through alternative and typically out-of-character means.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ranneko @ May 1 2007, 12:23 PM)
QUOTE (Cain @ May 1 2007, 04:44 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 30 2007, 06:22 PM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ May 1 2007, 01:16 AM)
QUOTE (Shev @ Apr 30 2007, 09:46 AM)
"I survive the dragon's wrath!" 
"Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit." 
"Aw, crap...ok, HoG again."
"Oh, look, another cow."
"..."
"Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge.  Have a new character sheet.."

biggrin.gif

Orbital Bovine Bombardment™: for when you really, really want a character to die.

Drastic situation: GM wants PC dead. Burn Edge. PC doesn't die, no matter how hard the GM wants PC dead unless GM invokes "I break the rules" rule(which creates a feedback to destroy said rule and the rule destroys itself).

You have a point. If the only way you can kill a character is to resort to the SMITE!™ tactic, then you've got problems. Unfortunately, I can't see any way to insta-kill any character with a postive Edge score, not within the rules at least.

Personally, I feel that if you need to insta-kill a character, your game has problems that probably should be resolved through alternative and typically out-of-character means.

Yeah, shooting the Player/GM is always an option, too. grinbig.gif
Blade
Yes but it's not so easy to get access to Orbital Bovine Bombardment in Real Life.
deek
QUOTE (Ranneko)
Personally, I feel that if you need to insta-kill a character, your game has problems that probably should be resolved through alternative and typically out-of-character means.

Yup, I think that says it all right there!
Shev
*shrug* Personally, HoG in my campaigns isn't a given. If I wanted you to have 6 lives, I'd be running Paranoia. If you make an utterly stupid mistake (such as calling a Lone Star officer fat when you've got 99 types of illegal equipment on you), there will be SOME consequence for it. Death is, of course, the last and most extreme of these consequences. If you do something stupid once or twice, it's no big deal. You might have to deal with some unpleasant situations, but nothing crippling. But if constant idiocy or just total lack of thinking occurs (such as gouging out the eyeballs during the course of an interrogation...being conducted in a car with open windows going down the freeway)...then death can and likely will happen. And when it does, that's it. If you jump out of an airplane thinking "Hey, I'll just burn some edge and I'll be fine," you know something's wrong with the system.

I only allow HoG when a player falls victim to a roll of the dice, as opposed to chronic stupidity.
Anymage
Sometimes it feels like retaining the name "Hand of God" leads people to expect more out of this than they should. I've reworked Escape Certain Death such that it will only mitigate or negate the effect of one roll made against a character, not the whole situation. ("Roll" here can also include one action/round's worth of trouble; a character meant to be ejected from an airlock can ECD to have the door jam, but once they're in space each edge can only buy them an extra round of life.) This action-based viewpoint keeps the silly forced coincidences to a minimum.

As for the instantaneous death of PC's, protagonists die more often because the scene is set up that way than because of a single lucky/unlucky action. "Senseless" PC deaths to enhance atmosphere should come at one of two times; the group actively kicks the player out, or the player wants a new character and wants to retire the old one with a bang.

GM's who want a little less of the "I do something suicidal and then burn edge to force a contrived way out" can also adopt a simple rule. Suicidal actions can get the response "that will kill you, and no amount of edge will negate that. Are you sure you want to do that?" The peremptory escape clause serves the same anti-oops protection edge does, while at the same time maintaining genre conceit; lucky characters take on greater risks than other similarly skilled characters. They don't, as a rule, shoot themselves in the head.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Anymage)
They don't, as a rule, shoot themselves in the head.

...mine do if they are forced to make a deal with a GD.
pbangarth
Well said, Anymage.
Shrike30
Said it before, said it again: living through a situation isn't the same thing as getting off scott-free. Anyone who's lived through a building dropping on them to end up half-cybered or in jail or owing a GD favors or however the GM decides the player gets away from death isn't exactly walking out unscathed.

If the gunslinger adept jumps out of a helicopter 200 stories above street level to get within handgun range of the group's target (by falling past his window) and then burns Edge to survive suicide, fine... she impales herself on a flagpole halfway down the side of the building, and building security comes down on a window washing rig to drag her unconcious, skewered ass off to interrogation. Or, the PC's get to come down on ropes to drag her unconcious, skewered ass off to the cyberdoc for a cybertorso (and adepts hate it when you install 1.5 essence worth of used cyber in them).

All it says is that the character survives. It doesn't say they have to like it. And in the meantime, the players being able to HoG means I don't have any pressure on me to fudge rolls in favor of character survival if a mook happens to have every single die come up 6 when he starts in with his light pistol. Works pretty well for everyone.
Shev
QUOTE (Shrike30)
And in the meantime, the players being able to HoG means I don't have any pressure on me to fudge rolls in favor of character survival if a mook happens to have every single die come up 6 when he starts in with his light pistol.  Works pretty well for everyone.

That is exactly what HoG is meant for. Freak die accidents do not good gameplay make.

However, the jumping 200 stories BS and saying "Catch me, God!" is absolutely idiotic. I don't care if they lose half their body doing it, and have to take a dozen flaws so as to make the character unplayable. Shadowrun is not a friendly world. It is gritty and deadly.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Shev @ May 1 2007, 01:37 PM)
However, the jumping 200 stories BS and saying "Catch me, God!" is absolutely idiotic.

Despide the example in the book is a guy falling off a building and being cought by the collar of his secure longcoat on a flagpole?

Here's the deal, you trip and fall and hit your head and don't manage to fall off the building. There Edge just saved you. Now you are unconcious. You were trying to avoid capture with that stunt? Well, it didn't work. You wake up in captivity, let me introduce you to your bunk mate, Mr. Snuggles the troll...
Grinder
Why are all unfriendly prison mates trolls? biggrin.gif
Demerzel
Mr. Snuggles is very friendly . . . if you go in for that sort of thing . . .
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Or, the PC's get to come down on ropes to drag her unconcious, skewered ass off to the cyberdoc for a cybertorso (and adepts hate it when you install 1.5 essence worth of used cyber in them).

That is so yesterday.
After SotA2064, no-one does that anymore - you drop them in a jar where they spend some weeks and get out as good as new.

QUOTE (Shrike30)
All it says is that the character survives.  It doesn't say they have to like it.

It doesn't say that 'not liking it' includes senseless reduction of stats other than Edge, either.
Grinder
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Or, the PC's get to come down on ropes to drag her unconcious, skewered ass off to the cyberdoc for a cybertorso (and adepts hate it when you install 1.5 essence worth of used cyber in them).

That is so yesterday.
After SotA2064, no-one does that anymore - you drop them in a jar where they spend some weeks and get out as good as new.

What? You can regain essence? Have to re-read the book, it seems.
Rotbart van Dainig
No.

You don't install cyberware as a trauma recovery procedure.

You just use augmented healing.
Grinder
Ah ok. That's another story. But in the example above cyberware like cranial bombs could be installed, not only life-saving stuff.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sure. But why?

It's note like cranial bombs are cheap, and if you don't use at least beta grade, they are found instantaneously...
Grinder
To scare the victim? As a mean to put pressure on the adept?

Other stuff like experimental cyberware is also a possibility. New 'ware has to be field-tested and there are not always enough willing subjects for it.
Darkest Angel
HoG exists for unlucky rolls, and situations where the character has found himself in a 'Death or Glory' position. That way it can prevent unnecessary deaths of well liked characters, and add to the heroism aspect of the game.

If you as a GM ever feels compelled to kill a character, then you have issues that need resolving OOC, either with the player, or with yourself. At the end of the day, SR is a game, gritty and edgy as it might be, but still a game, it's meant to be fun for everyone. What's the point in pissing off your players?
ornot
I don't think a GM should ever just kill off a PC 'cos they can'. If a player is doing stupid stuff like intentionally putting themselves in harms way and burning edge to get out of it (in the example above diving 400 feet out of a chopper to shoot someone through a window while falling), then an NPC will use edge to not die from the bullet. And the player will get a talking to about stupid pointless stunts.

If a PC is just being annoying, then I'll bring it up to the player, and if s/he refuses to modulate their character for the sake of OOC harmony then they can go game someplace else. Of course they'd have to be winding up everyone and amusing noone.
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