 "Burn all the Edge you want..., ...you ain't getting out alive." |
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 Apr 28 2007, 04:21 AM
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#51
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Uncle Fisty  Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928  |
No, Kid Stealth was a bad ass becuase he had some CIV in a compartment in his IIRC cyber arm, and used it to blow his legs off, putting the charge pretty much on the block, and taking his feet and I'm sure a good chunk of his legs with it. HoG would be used to keep from bleeding to death maybe or survive the shock. That's why I dislike the heavy use of HoG that SR4 allows for. What's so bad ass about Kid Stealth if any wannabe can piss off a syndicate, get cement shoes, tossed in the Sound, and go "Oh shit, Hand of God, I live!"
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Apr 28 2007, 04:33 AM
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#52
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If you are a PC, you ain't a wannabe. A wannabe is one of those goons the GM throws at you, you know the ones that share an Edge pool.
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Apr 28 2007, 04:59 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Well I believe HoG is reserved for GM's discretion as to it working. Saving you from a bad roll, not being stupid.
In games where death is "The End" you need a tool to escape from that bad luck. If they did something royally stupid they likely deserve what ever they get. But how is fun when you die from a bad roll? Sounds like one of the worst possible ways to go. Right up there with you walk out of your house and a sniper shoots you dead as you walk down the street. Not just any wanna be can do that. Grunts have group edge for example not their own. The fact grunts get any edge at all is rather unusually. In most games "edge" or hero points are reserved for PC's and maybe some Elite NPC's. Maybe instead of burning edge you have 3 strikes. When your 3 strikes are up your out. This doesn't mean you escape consequences. You may have a new cyberlimb, a criminal sin or some new negative quality. But your not dead. |
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Apr 28 2007, 05:03 AM
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#54
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
One other problem is that the Edge you burn has little relation to your Edge pool. So, even if you've spent every last point of edge, you've still got all of it to burn.
Also remember, HoG means you live. It is not a "Pass Go, get 200 nuyen" sort of deal. Like Jack pointed out, it could mean a new cyberlimb. Or it could mean you're in jail sharing a room with Bubba the Love Troll. The list goes on and on-- the character will suffer greatly, but he will live to see another day. Granted, this makes characters impossible to kill. Which is something I dislike about SR4. However, you can make their lives enough of a living hell thet they want to die; a drastic option, but one that works. |
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Apr 28 2007, 05:08 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
You do remember that a burned point of edge reduces you edge. IE if you have an edge of 5 and you burn a point so you survive being thrown off the top of a sky scraper or being riddled with bullets your Edge is now 4 until to raise it again with karma. |
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Apr 28 2007, 05:13 AM
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#56
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yes, but your Edge pool isn't necessarily affected. Let's say you haven't spent a single point of edge: no longshot tests, no extra dice, nothing of the sort. You get tossed off a building and HoG, your edge drops from 5 to 4. Now instead, let's say that you've been spending Edge like candy, with two rerolls and three extremely broken longshot tests. You get tossed off the same building, HoG in the exact same way, and suffer the exact same penalty. You're actually punished for conserving your Edge pool; in one case you lose an Edge pool point, in the other you don't.
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Apr 28 2007, 05:53 AM
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#57
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Really? I've always run it so that you had to actually have some Edge saved back to be able to burn a point and pull of a HoG.
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Apr 28 2007, 06:35 AM
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#58
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
By the RAW, no. They make a very clear distinction between burning Edge and spending Edge pool. They're separate animals.
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Apr 28 2007, 07:17 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Didn't he also have an internal air tank that let him stay under water for quite some time too. If a pc ever got captured in my game and was going to pull that Hog when he found out he was in cement shoes and about to be throwen into the water i'd let him find that they hadn't taken his combat knife and make him cut his own legs off. Otherwise he's toast. |
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Apr 28 2007, 03:17 PM
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#60
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
He gets swallowed up by a whale which promptly beaches itself and regurgitates him. Now that's burning your Edge. Otherwise, it is just run-of-the-mill spend-an-Edge for the longshot Sleight of Hand to hide the knife. |
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Apr 28 2007, 04:33 PM
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#61
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
And the list of my House Rules grows ever longer... :cyber: |
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Apr 28 2007, 07:35 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Thing about this Edge thing is to do this the PC has to have an Edge left in his pool and perma burn that entire point of edge, lowering his rating. Thats really a big thing to do and the GM has the right to levy many negative qualities on you, any of which could cripple an effective character.
Give a Street Sami Combat Paralysis and you likely have a retired character. Install a cyberlimb and a weak immune system on a focused mage and he might never recover/catch up. But if they over come those limits, it makes the story all the more interesting. A Street Sami can eventually get rid of the flaw (thru lots of therapy) and the Mage could turn his limbs into an advantage as well as a weakness. And rather than getting rid of the character, you could instead talk with the players and explain that their character will be out of commission for some time despite the burned Edge, and they'll have to have a replacement character until which time the original recovers/returns. |
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Apr 28 2007, 07:47 PM
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#63
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As said, burning Edge happens completely independent from Edge Pool.
No. The RAW tells us that GM is not obliged to let the character scape unscathed. That's a long way to 'drop negative qualities on the sucker until he can't even crawl'. The character already lost the Karma worth the point of Edge - no need to go out of your way and make him effectively loose Karma worth the Negative Quality. Replacement characters are a nice way of bridging the few sessions needed for recovery, but if you choose that solution, it's your duty as GM to have a appropriate NPC prepared. |
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Apr 28 2007, 07:53 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
If thats what you want, whatever. I interpret its more harsh than you I suppose. Its not to say I'd universally levy negative qualities every time, just if the situation calls for it. And the characers are not out, just at a disadvantage. You're over exaggerating. I'd prefer the "make a new character til your old one recovers/returns" option about half the time. Honestly, its all about if the player is having fun. Some enjoy the twists. Somtimes its better to simply deny the option. The spirits are rare to give this after all...
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Apr 28 2007, 08:04 PM
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#65
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The point is that, as a situation involving burning Edge always is just a question of creative rationale, one can not really say it can call for it.
Concerning the effects proposed by you, I'm not... you even specifically note that they are intended to cripple the character.
Usually it's a better Idea to simply hand over an NPC already involved - it keeps the plot smooth.
..which happens when the characters run out of Fate Points, errr, Edge. Honestly, I don't understand the problem. |
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Apr 28 2007, 08:11 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
The problem is that sometimes story and fun take precedence to game mechanics, even if it does mean being a little mean to a character (not a player).
A second chance at life is a very big thing, even for a fictional character. My players seem to understand that. Maybe I have exceptional players. And Can was the word I believe. It all depends on the situation. Ask my players, I tend to be more than fair and even if I levy negative qualities, I will talk with the player and work out what they feel is fair. Perhaps I had simply assumed everyone did that. Edit: I'll add something else. These are suggestions, NOT rulings. Only the creators have that. The RAW is the RAW, but, you know, sometimes people like an opinion or an option. Thats what this is. Deal. |
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Apr 28 2007, 08:27 PM
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#67
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Ah, that problem... yeah, it's indeed one - usually called railroading. Look, it's simply: The thing about RPG is that there is no preset 'story' that is so all-important that certain things must or mustn't happen... so, either way the dice fall, it's fine.
Oh... who would disagree with that - that would make those non-exceptional players, right? :S The point is that sometimes, you hardly notice that 'second chance' - the worst case just didn't happen, you got lucky. Emphasizing miracles in a dark world is usually contra-productive. |
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Apr 28 2007, 08:46 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
OF COOOURSE theres not set story. "Great story" rarely goes hand in hand with railroading. I've played and ran enough rpg games to know. Dice, btw, should not always have to dictate what happens... this particular rule is proof that the creators don't think that either. And stop with this putting words in my mouth. Don't even start with thise "Well since you're players are so awesome I guess you think others suck." I'm tempted to reply with something vulgar... But what you said was judgmental and childish. Of course I don't think that. Different people have different play styles, and I'm very flexible as are my players. Others are flexible in different ways, or perhaps not so flexible. As long as they have fun its fine. In the end its up to the GM and players. No question, right? I'm stating my style and what I think might work for those with perhaps a more gritty style. Miracles in a dark world counter-productive?? Depends on how dark. Miracles constantly happen in Shadowrun. Have you read the history? They're even refered to as miracles. :rotfl: :rotfl: And empahsizing them? Well maybe not if thats you're style. I prefer to emphasize it because of the point it brings to the player and character. Its RARE. Use whats left wisely... or waste it. Its up to you. The world is full of choices. And sometimes people DO know when they've had second chances. How about that guy that got a steel rod through his skull and lived... and survived with almost no brain damage(well a little motor damage, but he walked and could use his arm when they said he wouldn't)?! |
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Apr 28 2007, 08:55 PM
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#69
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
If you think this should be rare, then use such rationale rarely. ;) As it was pointed out in this thread, surviving inescapable death could very well be explained that said situation never happend that way. |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:03 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Hmm... I've nudged a few dice and been a bit forgetful of npcs actions before... XD Its all good. I'm particularly nice to new players, sooo... XD (shh! dont tell) |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:06 PM
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#71
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Cheating is rather bad habit - and as we all know, kicking the habit can be quite hard.
Thus, I'd rather burn Edge than have to (have the GM) cheat. :P |
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Apr 28 2007, 09:22 PM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 66 Joined: 9-March 07 Member No.: 11,195 |
It isn't cheating if the GM is doing it. ;) There have been more than a few times I've stuck the PCs in a situation that was far more deadly than I had anticipated and I had to fudge quite a bit. I don't see a need for them to spend edge (or whatever) 'cause I screwed up. |
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Apr 30 2007, 03:46 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
Clearly, someone needs to read the CLUE files. For me, HoG is a case-by-case basis. If you died doing something INCREDIBLY stupid (extra points if the GM was trying to hint at said stupidity) then all the Edge in the world won't keep Darwin from working his magic. On the other hand, if it was a lucky sniper shot, an ambush that you just didn't see, a spell that critically glitched...THOSE are Edge-worthy. But there's a reason we have orbital cow cannons. Hey, THERE'S a way to solve the whole HoG issue right there... "I survive the dragon's wrath!" "Ok, you're hit by a cow falling from orbit." "Aw, crap...ok, HoG again." "Oh, look, another cow." "..." "Let me assure you, I have more cows then you have Edge. Have a new character sheet." |
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Apr 30 2007, 05:16 PM
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#74
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
:D Orbital Bovine Bombardment™: for when you really, really want a character to die. |
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Apr 30 2007, 11:47 PM
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#75
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's usually the worst kind of cheating, for it certainly affects everyone. |
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