 "Burn all the Edge you want..., ...you ain't getting out alive." |
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 May 1 2007, 01:22 AM
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#76
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
Drastic situation: GM wants PC dead. Burn Edge. PC doesn't die, no matter how hard the GM wants PC dead unless GM invokes "I break the rules" rule(which creates a feedback to destroy said rule and the rule destroys itself). |
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May 1 2007, 05:44 AM
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#77
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You have a point. If the only way you can kill a character is to resort to the SMITE!™ tactic, then you've got problems. Unfortunately, I can't see any way to insta-kill any character with a postive Edge score, not within the rules at least. |
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May 1 2007, 07:20 AM
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#78
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
easy: carpet bombing. there are certain to be more explosions than the character has Edge.
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May 1 2007, 09:34 AM
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#79
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Burning Edge covers a whole situation... and the intent of the rule is that the character survives.
Unless you revoke that rule, there is no getting around it. |
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May 1 2007, 10:23 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Personally, I feel that if you need to insta-kill a character, your game has problems that probably should be resolved through alternative and typically out-of-character means. |
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May 1 2007, 10:25 AM
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#81
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yeah, shooting the Player/GM is always an option, too. :grinbig: |
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May 1 2007, 10:54 AM
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#82
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Yes but it's not so easy to get access to Orbital Bovine Bombardment in Real Life.
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May 1 2007, 02:43 PM
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#83
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Yup, I think that says it all right there! |
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May 1 2007, 03:08 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
*shrug* Personally, HoG in my campaigns isn't a given. If I wanted you to have 6 lives, I'd be running Paranoia. If you make an utterly stupid mistake (such as calling a Lone Star officer fat when you've got 99 types of illegal equipment on you), there will be SOME consequence for it. Death is, of course, the last and most extreme of these consequences. If you do something stupid once or twice, it's no big deal. You might have to deal with some unpleasant situations, but nothing crippling. But if constant idiocy or just total lack of thinking occurs (such as gouging out the eyeballs during the course of an interrogation...being conducted in a car with open windows going down the freeway)...then death can and likely will happen. And when it does, that's it. If you jump out of an airplane thinking "Hey, I'll just burn some edge and I'll be fine," you know something's wrong with the system.
I only allow HoG when a player falls victim to a roll of the dice, as opposed to chronic stupidity. |
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May 1 2007, 03:27 PM
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#85
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 28-August 03 Member No.: 5,551 |
Sometimes it feels like retaining the name "Hand of God" leads people to expect more out of this than they should. I've reworked Escape Certain Death such that it will only mitigate or negate the effect of one roll made against a character, not the whole situation. ("Roll" here can also include one action/round's worth of trouble; a character meant to be ejected from an airlock can ECD to have the door jam, but once they're in space each edge can only buy them an extra round of life.) This action-based viewpoint keeps the silly forced coincidences to a minimum.
As for the instantaneous death of PC's, protagonists die more often because the scene is set up that way than because of a single lucky/unlucky action. "Senseless" PC deaths to enhance atmosphere should come at one of two times; the group actively kicks the player out, or the player wants a new character and wants to retire the old one with a bang. GM's who want a little less of the "I do something suicidal and then burn edge to force a contrived way out" can also adopt a simple rule. Suicidal actions can get the response "that will kill you, and no amount of edge will negate that. Are you sure you want to do that?" The peremptory escape clause serves the same anti-oops protection edge does, while at the same time maintaining genre conceit; lucky characters take on greater risks than other similarly skilled characters. They don't, as a rule, shoot themselves in the head. |
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May 1 2007, 03:39 PM
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#86
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...mine do if they are forced to make a deal with a GD. |
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May 1 2007, 04:39 PM
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#87
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,374 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Well said, Anymage.
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May 1 2007, 06:56 PM
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#88
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Said it before, said it again: living through a situation isn't the same thing as getting off scott-free. Anyone who's lived through a building dropping on them to end up half-cybered or in jail or owing a GD favors or however the GM decides the player gets away from death isn't exactly walking out unscathed.
If the gunslinger adept jumps out of a helicopter 200 stories above street level to get within handgun range of the group's target (by falling past his window) and then burns Edge to survive suicide, fine... she impales herself on a flagpole halfway down the side of the building, and building security comes down on a window washing rig to drag her unconcious, skewered ass off to interrogation. Or, the PC's get to come down on ropes to drag her unconcious, skewered ass off to the cyberdoc for a cybertorso (and adepts hate it when you install 1.5 essence worth of used cyber in them). All it says is that the character survives. It doesn't say they have to like it. And in the meantime, the players being able to HoG means I don't have any pressure on me to fudge rolls in favor of character survival if a mook happens to have every single die come up 6 when he starts in with his light pistol. Works pretty well for everyone. |
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May 1 2007, 08:37 PM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
That is exactly what HoG is meant for. Freak die accidents do not good gameplay make. However, the jumping 200 stories BS and saying "Catch me, God!" is absolutely idiotic. I don't care if they lose half their body doing it, and have to take a dozen flaws so as to make the character unplayable. Shadowrun is not a friendly world. It is gritty and deadly. |
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May 1 2007, 08:54 PM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Despide the example in the book is a guy falling off a building and being cought by the collar of his secure longcoat on a flagpole? Here's the deal, you trip and fall and hit your head and don't manage to fall off the building. There Edge just saved you. Now you are unconcious. You were trying to avoid capture with that stunt? Well, it didn't work. You wake up in captivity, let me introduce you to your bunk mate, Mr. Snuggles the troll... |
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May 1 2007, 09:23 PM
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#91
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Why are all unfriendly prison mates trolls? :D
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May 1 2007, 09:41 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Mr. Snuggles is very friendly . . . if you go in for that sort of thing . . .
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May 1 2007, 09:51 PM
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#93
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That is so yesterday. After SotA2064, no-one does that anymore - you drop them in a jar where they spend some weeks and get out as good as new.
It doesn't say that 'not liking it' includes senseless reduction of stats other than Edge, either. |
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May 1 2007, 09:53 PM
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#94
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
What? You can regain essence? Have to re-read the book, it seems. |
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May 1 2007, 10:02 PM
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#95
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No.
You don't install cyberware as a trauma recovery procedure. You just use augmented healing. |
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May 1 2007, 10:04 PM
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#96
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Ah ok. That's another story. But in the example above cyberware like cranial bombs could be installed, not only life-saving stuff.
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May 1 2007, 10:21 PM
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#97
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. But why?
It's note like cranial bombs are cheap, and if you don't use at least beta grade, they are found instantaneously... |
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May 1 2007, 10:28 PM
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#98
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
To scare the victim? As a mean to put pressure on the adept?
Other stuff like experimental cyberware is also a possibility. New 'ware has to be field-tested and there are not always enough willing subjects for it. |
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May 1 2007, 10:30 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062 |
HoG exists for unlucky rolls, and situations where the character has found himself in a 'Death or Glory' position. That way it can prevent unnecessary deaths of well liked characters, and add to the heroism aspect of the game.
If you as a GM ever feels compelled to kill a character, then you have issues that need resolving OOC, either with the player, or with yourself. At the end of the day, SR is a game, gritty and edgy as it might be, but still a game, it's meant to be fun for everyone. What's the point in pissing off your players? |
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May 1 2007, 10:34 PM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I don't think a GM should ever just kill off a PC 'cos they can'. If a player is doing stupid stuff like intentionally putting themselves in harms way and burning edge to get out of it (in the example above diving 400 feet out of a chopper to shoot someone through a window while falling), then an NPC will use edge to not die from the bullet. And the player will get a talking to about stupid pointless stunts.
If a PC is just being annoying, then I'll bring it up to the player, and if s/he refuses to modulate their character for the sake of OOC harmony then they can go game someplace else. Of course they'd have to be winding up everyone and amusing noone. |
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