 Concealment spirit power, How does it work in astral plane? |
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 Apr 29 2007, 11:21 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 10-April 07 Member No.: 11,421  |
Newbie GM trying to understand magic. We play SR4 rules by the book. Any help is appreciated. :) Here's the text:
I assume that leaves an astral signature just like any other sustained effect. If so, astral tracking done soon enough would take you right to the concealed object or individual. Yes? What about a concealed character who is sneaking up on a spirit or character who is astrally perceiving? Is the concealed character harder to see in the astral plane or do they shine brightly because of the active power? Sleepyman |
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Apr 29 2007, 11:25 AM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Performing Magic leaves Signatures - sustaining it only leaves a connection.
Thus, you can trace Spirit to User and vice versa. As concealment is a physical power (P), it has no effect on Astral Perception. |
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Apr 29 2007, 12:27 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 10-April 07 Member No.: 11,421 |
Thanks!
That makes sense, and I'll rule it that way from now on. On the other hand, the description says "any perception tests" not "any perception tests on the physical plane". I guess I just have basic questions about astral perception. Two examples: (1) Sneaky character with no magic and no astral perception but excellent infiltration skills approaching a building that has spirits on the lookout: Is his aura automatically detected? If not, what roll does he make and what roll does the spirit make? (2) Sneaky character additionally concealed by a spirit: Does the extra aura of an active power give him away astrally? We ruled that the spirits had to make a regular perception tests in both cases since assensing seems to be more analysis than detection. I'm still lost in this situation. Sleepyman |
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Apr 29 2007, 12:33 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
Yes, the spirit would still need to make perception tests to see your sneaky char.
Assenssing is the skill needed to ready auras, to know if the person is sick, hurt, happy, cybered, etc... Perception is the skill needed to notice things, like a sneaky person, regardless of whether it is in astral or mundane space. |
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Apr 29 2007, 12:44 PM
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#5
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, no - Assensing is the Skill used for any perception on the Astral Plane.
If you want to notice something hidden, you still have to use Assensing. |
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Apr 29 2007, 01:18 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 10-April 07 Member No.: 11,421 |
Ok, that makes things a lot simpler. I think we over analyzed the astral perception rules.
So I need to know how to run this. Let's say the character has infiltration 4, agility 6 and a chameleon suit. Two different spirits are on the lookout, a watcher and a force 3 spirit. Here goes: (1) The chameleon suit says -4 dice on perception, not on assensing, so it does not help against the spirits unless the force 3 spirit was to materialize. (2) The character's skill with infiltration still applies because, for instance, hiding behind things that make you less detectable in the physical world also shades your aura in the astral plane. (3) I'm inclined to give the spirits 2 extra dice if the character is ignorant of the presence of these spirits. (4) I'd give the spirits 4 extra dice if the character has an active spell or power on him, like concealment. (5) I'd remove dice from the spirits' rolls based on the geometry of the situation just like I would for perception tests in the physical world, or possibly add dice if they walked right under the spirits' noses. Thoughts? Sleepyman |
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Apr 29 2007, 03:40 PM
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#7
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
By the description of Astral Perception, it seems that an Assensing test is made only "when an astral being is specifically trying to hide or when a character is trying to astrally observe in detail". The problem here is what is an astral being, does it even include auras? 1) Correct. 2) May be infered so. 3, 4) No canon SR4 source modifier. As GM you have the right to house rule it so. 5) SM p114, Astral Visibility, may be useful. |
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Apr 29 2007, 04:39 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Consider the description for the power Search.
Search is also a Physical power, but it can be used purely from the astral, i.e. using astral perception only, and there is a negative dicepool modifier if there is a concealment power being used on the target. So as a result concealment must be able to hide things from the astral as well as from the physical. |
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Apr 29 2007, 04:39 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 811 Joined: 30-January 07 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 10,845 |
I hate to disagree with toturi, but I think that a chameleon suit will never help against a spirit. Despite a spirit materializing, they are always dual-natured and are still percieving on the astral plane, though now they can afect the physical plane.
If you are only running one runner, and he is not a mage, throwing spirits in is kind of cruel, since not only can they see him when he cant see back, but they are immune to normal weapons. A group should always have magical support if mages are to be expected in the opposition. |
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Apr 29 2007, 04:43 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 10-April 07 Member No.: 11,421 |
That was the exact quote that had me scratching my head in the first place. I guess for now I'm going with "yes" as the answer to that question.
Thank you! That is very helpful. The -1 to -4 for shadow clutter is a good guideline. Also, the +2 when Devoid(no living traffic) would often be appropriate on typical infiltration runs. That still doesn't capture my interpretation that Astral beings and such are easier to astrally perceive than shadowy auras. Ah, well... Sleepyman |
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Apr 29 2007, 04:46 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I'm not sure this is so cut and dried. I thought that may be the case, but I"m not so sure upon further reflection. Consider that in past fiction (not really a good source for rules, but a good source to get a feel of what's going on) spirits could materialize and read street signs for a mage. As well as other things. In fact if a Spirit were only ever astrally perceiving then they would never be able to read. Also spirits have the Perception skill, if they were always astrally perceiving they would only ever use assensing, and assensing is used for all perception tests when astrally perceiving. |
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Apr 29 2007, 04:51 PM
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#12
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
I know and hate the weakining of the seperation of planes. However, this is an exception... |
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Apr 29 2007, 05:02 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I'm not sure it really affects the separation of planes. Consider:
This is a lot like detection spells. Just because it's range touch does not mean you have to touch a spot to see it with clairvoyance. In this case the critter must materialize to use the concealment power, he may use it on either a living or non-living target, but the affect is in both planes. I'm not aware of any part of the ruels that says a physical magical effect has no effect on astral forms. Remember type (P/M) is about the target of the spell, the people observing the target are not the target, the target is the person concealment is used on. |
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Apr 29 2007, 05:11 PM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The reference (p. 195) tells us that only mana spell can affect astral forms. ;) Affecting them is not the same as targeting them, too. |
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Apr 29 2007, 05:21 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I get the feeling that this runs counter to the intent of the power. The fact that it is physical is to allow a critter to conceal a vehicle say. Making it ineffective vs. astral observers essentially makes the power pointless.
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Apr 29 2007, 05:26 PM
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#16
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's the same with every Illusion spell...
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Apr 29 2007, 05:40 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
So improved invisibility is really just different invisibility rather than improved invisibility...
Improved Invisibility works on sensors "as well" as affecting the minds... It's description would indicate that both are effective against astral forms, but one is effective against technological sensors "as well"... |
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Apr 29 2007, 05:50 PM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
None of them is effective against Astral Perception...
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Apr 29 2007, 05:59 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Invisibility is Type M, what makes that ineffective against astral?
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Apr 29 2007, 06:01 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That. |
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Apr 29 2007, 06:14 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Invisibility is neither disguising or creating an aura, it is concealing an aura. There is a difference between using assensing skill with an observe in detail action to see if you can see something, and assensing to learn about an Aura.
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Apr 29 2007, 06:18 PM
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#22
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Come on. ;) |
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Apr 29 2007, 06:22 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
I imagine the intent of the statement "Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras." is because that falls into the realm of masking. I want to look like an innocent japanese school girl from the astral rather t han a depraved homicidal shadowrunner. An illusion cannot perform masking. It can however fool your senses, unless you DETECT the thing you're trying to determine is fake, then succeed on an assensing test.
So the illusion is that nothing is in this space, and you can create that illusion in the astral plane as per your quote. Then it would be a dead giveaway if someone could succeed on an astral perception test looking at that empty space and trying to determine if it is really an empty space or not. But why would anyone do that? |
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Apr 29 2007, 06:27 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Because the vibrant aura of an invisibilty spell is floating around?
Anyway, 'disguising' and 'concealing' in this case are used synonymously enough to conclude that there is no way of hiding auras... except for masking wards, that is. |
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Apr 29 2007, 07:26 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
It's my turn to say, Come on.
What makes you think a spell has a vibrant magical aura? The illusions created in the astral plane are only given away if you make a successful Assensing Test. Look again at your quote, it is only obvious if you make a successful Assensing test. If as you insist that there is some vibrant astral form that sticks out like a sore thumb enough to attract enough attention to come in closer and Assense then it would be obvious before you Assense it and wouldn’t need you to succeed on an Assensing Test. What your quote says is that the illusion exists in the astral and that you would only understand that it is not what you think it is if you read the aura and get enough successes to determine the type of object, and see that it is a spell not whatever it is it’s pretending to be. That’s two hits on an Assensing test to see the class of an object, that’s only 50/50 if you have 6 dice on the Assensing Test, clearly not obvious at casual perusal. Consider a different case, Joe the mage decides he wants to pretend he’s Solid Snake, so he casts a phantasm to create a cardboard box around him, concealing his astral form from any onlookers, because the box/phantasm is in the way. For an astrally perceiving onlooker to detect that it is an illusion they would have to Assense the box with a critical eye in order to determine the class of the object and succeed on the Assensing Test and see that in fact the class of object is not a mundane object, but in fact a spell masquerading as a mundane object. There wouldn’t be much of a reason for any onlooker to do that unless something was amiss. Perhaps they think that the box does not belong, or perhaps they see it move, or something like that. If that illusion were that there is nothing rather than there is a box, then there would be nothing to detect. They would not notice anything amiss or out of place so they would never attempt to get the two successes to determine that in fact that nothing is not a nothing but is a spell. |
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