Concealment spirit power, How does it work in astral plane? Options

[X-Kalibur]

I think the best solution would be to start a poll... namely because, nothing against the people that wrote up the FAQ, but some of that stuff was wonky as hell and not conducive with previous editions.

[pbangarth]

I don't see what the problem is. You need no Assensing test to see that the thing before you( in astral space) is magical... the aura tells you so, no matter what shape it has or what it may be hiding or emulating. You need an Assensing test to know it is an illusion of a box. Why are folks trying to make it more difficult?

[Demerzel]

So you're saying that the rule that says you need to succeed at an Assensing Test is to be disregarded, because . . . ?

[Ravor]

For the same reasons that no-one really calls for a Perception Test at -2 in order to notice a running crowd despite RAW using it as an example of what to call for a Perception Test in order to notice.

[pbangarth]

[toturi]

[Ravor]

Exceptions only prove the rule toturi. 8)

[toturi]

[Ravor]

Question everything, trust nothing. 8)

*Edit*

By the way, I did notice that you edited your post... :cyber:

[toturi]

[Ravor]

I've evolved beyond the need for Canon. *Manical Laughter*


8) :notworthy: :rollin: :cyber: :silly:


Because remember, there is no spoon.

*Wanders off to find the nice young men in the clean white coats...* :dead:



:scatter: :alien: :scatter:

[Demerzel]

[nathanross]

Can we all just agree to disagree and quit trying to prove to each other something that cant be proven because the RAW sucks.

Either way, do the characters notice the box? I think it is unfair for the GM to just instantly write off that unless the character is percieving and chooses at random to assense the box/illusion spell. Even if the GM roles for the character, the character should have a chance to see it, unless he is not even astral.

And if you guys are going to keep on arguing, those in support of glowing spells, start actually quoting RAW even if an older edition, so far your argument lacks support, which those in disagreement have plenty of (and are so far winning the argument, if they would just calm down a bit)

Ross

[Ranneko]

Okay, I will bite

[toturi]

The wording on the Astral Perception and Assensing leaves much to be desired, IMO. It is not clear cut on whether a mana Illusion is an exception to the basic knowledge about the aura rule or is it merely restating the fact that an Assensing test is required to know what type of spell it is.

For GMs that want Astral Perception to break Illusion spells or simply want to keep things simple for themselves, they would rule it one way and for GMs that can see their way(pun pun) around the complex mess, they would rule it another way. For myself, until the writers clarify their stand, I would say that by the letter of the rules, Demerzel is correct - only because the Astral Perception rules themselves hop all over the damn place, one moment they are talking about 1 thing and the next about another, which to me, lend credance to Dem's arguments.

[Ravor]

[Demerzel]

I hate to bring in something entirely unrelated like this, and it seems reductio ad absurdum arguments tend to fall on deaf ears here, but I’m going to try anyhow.

The argument that the rule that requires a successful Assensing Test (SR4 p.201 quoted many times already) is overridden by the fact that the section on assensing tests (SR4 p.182) is more general and takes precedence over the specific rule cannot be a valid method of interpretation.

Consider the Fubuki light pistol, its description contains the following rule:

[2bit]

[pbangarth]

Ok, Demerzel, now *there* is an argument with some meat to it. It gave me some pause.

The precedent of the Fubuki pistol could be construed as legitimizing overriding the general rule of Assensing with the specific rule of perceiving the Illusion spell. At this point, then we are again at the stage of interpreting the wording.

I see the Fubuki text as consciously pointing out an exception to the general rule, and not putting that general rule into confusion or jeopardy. It is a machine designed to work differently. The wording of the Illusion spell description is not so clear and consciously stepping outside the general rule, and does make the general rule confusing (see our current thread for evidence).

I recognize your interpretation and allow it has validity. I just don't agree. There appear to be two camps in this thread that feel the same way. The same arguments are appearing repeatedly. It would appear to me to be wise at this point to agree to disagree. I will run my games with my interpretation, and live with whatever way any GM runs me as a player. How about you? And the rest of us?

[Demerzel]

Okay so here’s how I see it in another attempt to summarize:

The appropriate method of interpreting rules is, first understand the basic rule, and then apply the special characteristics of the power/item/etc.

P.182 outlines the basic methods for how Astral Perception works. Then illusions come along and change the rules. In this case it creates a general case of how to handle illusions:

That is, “Realistic illusions seem completely real.” (SR p. 201)

Then, if you’re using Astral Perception then you may have an easy out. While that illusion seems completely real, if you succeed on an Assensing Test then you get to pierce the illusion for free even though you failed your willpower roll.

The quote that’s going around does not create the ability to have illusions in the astral, that is created by rules that allow mana based spell effects to work in the astral. What it does do is weaken illusions, giving a second method of piercing in the astral. It does not completely invalidate them.

Now perhaps someone can summarize the other side better, but the way I see it the whole thing hinges on this requirement that you can simply see something and determine the class of object it is while astrally perceiving, and that nothing will ever change that, not the fact that illusions can be created on the astral, or that realistic illusions seem completely real.

[toturi]

[ornot]

[toturi]

[Ravor]

Then in that case to be *completely* within :S RAW :S you should be rolling Perception/Assensing Tests for every character every turn before taking them aside and describing what they "perceive".

But hey, if you want to run your game that way, more power to you toturi.

[The Jopp]

I think it is rather clear.

Example 1:
If a person is standing in plain sight with an illusion or other spell active that affects the perceiver that looks at the person or the person itself then the following is used:

The spell is immediately visible as the perceiver sees the spell – the individual in this case is unimportant, the spell is visible. If the perceiver wants more info about the spell and the individual an Assensing test is required for both.

Example 2:
A person has an active spell and is attemting to hide with an active spell/foci/etc/miniature giant space hamster/IE.

Since the person tries to hide the following is done to find him:

Assensing+Intuition (+/- Astral Modifiers)VS Infiltration+Agility

If the perceiver manages to find the (not so) stealthy intruder he will see a living aura with a spell active. In order to glean more info he must make an assensing test on both the spell and the individual.

Example 3: (from the thread)
A person is hiding inside an alley behind an illusionary box.

The magician will see the spell of the illusion but NOT the hiding person unless they make an opposed test as in example 1.

The active spell is obvious – the hiding person is not, that’s not to say that the hiding individual will be HARD to spot, but he’s still hiding.

ALL spells, foci etc are always visible on the astral, but not OBVIOUS on the astral if someone tries to hide. As long as no one actually tries to hide (themselves) their spells, foci etc will be visible.

This is my INTERPRETATION of the rules as it seems logical, I could be wrong though but I would still play with it.