 specialization and skill groups, clarification please |
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 May 7 2007, 10:42 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 6-April 06 From: Tampere, Finland Member No.: 8,432  |
Don't know where you get the idea, that you can "remake" skill groups when improving your character. But I also hail for the opinion that you can buy specialization for skill, when it's in the skill group, but it then breaks the skill group in the same way like improving the same skill. But there's absolutely no coming back to whole skill group, when you brake one. That's the whole idea in skill groups.
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May 7 2007, 01:46 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
If you approach what rotbart's saying from the stance that specializations are for characters who have well, specialized, i.e, people who have put in some effort to raise skills individually, it does make a certain amount of sense, and also keeps skill groups more in balance (They're already an important tool from the perspective of gaining as much power per karma/bp as possible). My favorite all time SR4 character actually started out with little but synthacardium, a skillwire 3 system, 4 skill groups taken at 4, a street doc contact for combat drugs and whole mess of edge. He would have quickly been throwing far too many dice into far too many different skills to be really plausible had my gm not caught the wrinkle you guys are talking about from the beginning. He quite literally would have been gaining 2-3 specializations per run without the rule, which is some pretty nice progression, especially when you consider how skills grow in cost while specs are static. Really, had Fanpro wanted to be really draconian about this, they would have made it only the skill you raised to break the skill group may be specialized in. It would make more sense.
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May 7 2007, 02:04 PM
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#28
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Unfortunately, that's not it... at all. As we can see, the rule that you can break Skillgroups by advancing a single Skill from it with Karma opened The Can. Now The Worms are everywhere and people are reasoning whether you could break up Skillgroups at chargen and/or by getting Specializations... and what happens if you have a Reflex Recoder implant for a Skillgroup and you break it. I'm seriously thinking about removing that rule in my games... you have a choice at chargen/purchase - and you stick with it. |
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May 7 2007, 02:09 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
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May 7 2007, 02:21 PM
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#30
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As long as your GM allows it, your character can defy gravity and happily glide upon the winds. |
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May 7 2007, 02:38 PM
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#31
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
True, although a good Levitate spell also comes in handy Rotbart van Dainig. :cyber:
Seriously though, although I'll grant that the FAQ isn't :S RAW :S , it IS the closest non-RAW tool that exists for the purposes of clarification on issues where the 'proper' reading of RAW would have to decend either into the realm of tea-leaves and palm readings or that of lawyers combing through a legal document. |
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May 7 2007, 02:42 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
And if the GM doesn't allow it you can't do anything. |
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May 7 2007, 03:28 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 2-January 04 From: California Protectorate Member No.: 5,949 |
Wow, I don't think I've seen that kind of rules lawyering since my last game of Warhammer. ;)
Seriously, it's an RPG book, not the Bible. In the last edition, cyberware olfactory enhancers (forget the actual name right now, they added a +1 dice for perception) had no maximum rating. At rating x 1000 nuyen, I heard horror stories on Dumpshock about players taking them at rating 500 and being able to smell EVERYTHING. I believe the exact quote was "I can SMELL the FUTURE." Sometimes, the book isn't clear, or even downright makes a goof. Not every rule makes perfect sense. This is why house rules exist, and why a GM that can expand beyond what the book tells him/her to do is more fun to play with than one who follows the book letter for letter. |
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May 7 2007, 03:39 PM
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#34
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..boy, there are so many proverbs with 'smell'... :rotfl: |
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May 8 2007, 01:27 AM
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#35
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Heresy! Not every RAW rule has to make perfect sense. The RAW just is. A GM that can expand beyond what the book tells him to do is less fun to play with than one who follows the book letter for letter. |
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May 8 2007, 04:28 AM
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#36
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Whatever floats your boat man, more power to ya.
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May 8 2007, 06:37 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-February 07 Member No.: 10,861 |
My character has specializations out his ass, but we play fast and loose with the rules. honestly, though, it makes sense that a person can have a certain level of skill in all guns, specialize in longarms (represented by buying it to six) and then specialize further in sniper rifles. Or instead, specialize in a certain kind of pistol. This represents that character, who already possesses general skill, taking the time to focus on particular types of weapons.
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May 8 2007, 06:48 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
Take a Gunslinger Adept Human. Exceptional Attribute Agility, Aptitude Pistols, Max out his pistols skill, Increased Skill 4 (pistols) Specialized in (pistol type), and use the 3rd edition speicality weapon, AND metamagic talent of Attunement(item).
so lets say Agility 7 Pistols 7 Increased Ability 4 (pistols) Specialization 2 dice Smartlink 2 dice Attunement x dice (whereas X = lvl of initiate.) Speciality Weapon: 2 dice Grand total = 24 + X |
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May 8 2007, 07:12 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 24-January 07 Member No.: 10,756 |
There's discussions about what we think should be allowed as GMs, and what we believe the RAW says. Personally I would allow skill group break-ups at character creation, and house-rule that you can break a skill group by specializing.
As far as what RAW says, according to strict interpretation, I'm going to agree with Rotbart. This is what is RAW, in my opinion. And this is the wrong forum to be talking about excessive rules lawyering. First, Dumpshock is renowned for its rules lawyer debate over what precisely RAW states. Secondly, the entire question was what RAW stated. |
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May 8 2007, 07:28 AM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The maximum modified rating for a skill is 10 with the aptitude quality (pg. 63, under skill ratings), so the maximum increased ability would be 3, not 4. The attunement metamagic gives a bonus equal to half of the intiate's grade (which is still damn good). Overall, big dice pools are not as useful in SR4 as they are in SR3. They are nice to have, but with a TN of 5, and all of the situational modifiers that can apply to ranged combat, your example adept will still miss occasionally. Not that unbalancing, all things considered (unless the GM is running a low-powered campaign). As far as skill groups and the RAW, I agree with Rotbert, but would use the FAQ (which I don't always agree with) if I ran a game. I wouldn't allow skill groups to be split up at char-gen, but I would allow characters to break them up by specializing in one of the skills. I certainly wouldn't disallow skill groups ever being split up. Not only is that unrealistic (why shouldn't someone skilled in all firearms be able to get better with only pistols?), but it gimps skill groups by forever denying them those extra two dice from specialization, which can make a big difference. |
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