 Offices., They exist? |
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 May 11 2007, 04:36 PM
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#1
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Shadow Cartographer  Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636  |
This was a reply to the Luddite-E-ninja thread, but I realised it was its own subject. Isn't the whole concept of an office a little archaic? There wont be any paper files or other bits and pieces lying around that are needed for your work - everything will be electronic and thus non-location specific. Likewise with the non-location based structure of the Matrix, there's no reason why a "node" isn't connected to directly by workers all around the world and the same IC will guard worker A in his home in Seattle and worker B in his flat in Tokyo. And as to human interaction - how many companies can't afford 150 :nuyen: for a SIM module and trodes? Bang - virtual office. In short, I'm having trouble justifying a big office. |
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May 11 2007, 04:44 PM
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#2
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
For most systems, you're right, they might not need them.
Of course, if you want a self-contained network without outside connections, and wi-fi blocking paint then you need to get everyone in the same building. That disconnection is why we need hackers who come in with the team instead of deckers who sit in a van. In other words, there will still be office buildings, but they'll be high-security isolated systems, because if they didn't need to be, then they wouldn't exist. Right? Isn't that the logical conclusion you're shooting for? |
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May 11 2007, 04:54 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
I would wager that with 2 complete crashes, most companies would have hard copies of everything stored on their computer networks. even the virtual offices would have a building that staffed the network. they would maintain the node and then at end of shift ether print the data to paper or dump it into a electronic storage that is completely offline, like optical chips.
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May 11 2007, 05:02 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 200 Joined: 22-June 06 Member No.: 8,764 |
I think humans are creatures of habit, and 63 years is probably not long enough for us to give up our cube farms wholesale. I think "wageslave" isn't someone who works from home, the office is a good way of keeping workers under control/observation. Not even in a high-security standpoint, but just social engineering. I think even with simsense and such, workers who have to schlep to an office every day for a 9-5 are going to be more docile and controllable than people who telecommute.
To me, the main justification is that dreary, dark office buildings full of mindless wage-zombies are necessary for the Shadowrun setting. But I think I'm more willing to sacrifice realism for story and setting than some. |
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May 11 2007, 05:05 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Not to mention they might not want information to leave the corp. If all your workers , work from home its quite easy for one of them to sell vial company info. Or for runners to just strike ay their houses. Worse someone could strike at their house steal there comlink and pretend to be them it could take years to figure that out if ever.
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May 11 2007, 05:09 PM
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#6
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Not really. For a start, I don't believe the off-line office is realistic. Whilst I'm sure the megacorps would be willing to displace their key employees to achieve this, I don't think it would be useful. How many offices and projects do you think could function or be useful if there were no outside phone lines. In 2070, the equivalent is matrix connection. Now you could have the whole building wifi-inhibited and all traffic goes through a secure connection, but that's still a route in for the hacker and the way the matrix works, everything is distributed. Nodes are defined by physical security and purpose, not locality (except where that purpose is a function of locality). So you don't gain much (any?) matrix security in return for all the costs of gathering people, making them commute, etc. Certainly not dependable security. And if there are any places that want to go these lengths, they're still going to be a small minority of businesses. I just don't see offices existing for the most part in SR2070. |
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May 11 2007, 05:15 PM
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#7
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
No that's far less efficient. If you want to monitor someone's productivity / activity, I can give you tools right now today that will track keyboard activity, file access, etc. etc. That commuting time is wasted time and time that you have to pay for by grudginely keeping the employees wages high enough to pay for the travelling. In 2070, I can't believe there are many office workers doing dull routine work like adding up figures and returning accounts. The company's expert systems will pull out whatever is needed on demand. It will even file accounts information to your bank, taxman, etc., automatically. Any office work that's being done in 2070 is going to be work that you want a comfortable, non-distracted, non-tired employee performing. Not "Mr. I was stuck in traffic and now I'm late." And we haven't even considered the enormous cost savings in working from home. Trust me on this one - it costs a lot to run a big building of staff. |
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May 11 2007, 05:18 PM
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#8
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Are you saying that a company wouldn't do something stupid and inefficient simply because it's run by stubborn old men? 'Cause I find that scenario tragically believable.
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May 11 2007, 05:30 PM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
secondary question then is, where is said home located? A+ corps could probably own walled garden enclaves where the workers have their whole life, no need to leave corp territory. dont forget, any outside signal device have to be within range of the lowest rating device to maintain effective communication. so by having all corp "issue" comlinks have a very low signal rating, one can build a "firewall" around the enclave. any data going in or out will be investigated. and given how encryption works in SR, forget about trying that... so, if you want to get your hands on the data, you have to break in... |
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May 11 2007, 05:41 PM
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#10
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...like the MetaTech Village that I worked up for a run scenario a while back.
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May 11 2007, 05:58 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
You do remember the matrix right? If they are working from home they'd have matrix access and could link up to the office from their. Which was the point of why don't they just do telecommuting. And a enclave would just be an office with more homely feel, if the comlinks have to be within signal range of each other. As the signal ranges have to be close to each other if your not using the matrix. Your right back to an office building. Its quite expensive to have those enclaves it much cheaper to just have an office and have your employees come in to work and monitor them at home. Most corp workers don't live in enclaves other wise the corp territory would be larger then all the nations. I was responding to why they still have offices and the problems with working at home. Not that they DO. |
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May 11 2007, 05:59 PM
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#12
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
This is a world where you can store movies in your shirt. Making an employee come all the way into work is not going to prevent them stealing data. And as to the security of people targetting employees in their homes, well that can happen anyway. People don't take work home with them? People at other offices don't want to connect in remotely? Even today, we're seeing virtual private networks coming into common use. Offices at different sites share their data invisibly. How much more so in the megacorporate world of 2070 ? No IT department is going to make their manager go all the way to the next city or even country to check up on things. And calling the site up brings us straight back to the matrix connection. I'm just really not convinced that the disconnected office is feasible and that's the only reason people are giving me for the gross, costly inefficiency of running a big office for all your employees and making them trundle in and out twice a day. There might be some highly paranoid labs that force everyone on site, but the vast, vast, vast majority of businesses have no good justification for running more than a skeleton office. Offices in SR2070 being anything other than a rare exception just doesn't make sense. |
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May 11 2007, 06:03 PM
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#13
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Having worked in these sort of places before, I can tell you two big reasons a lot of places don't do telecommuting. First is productivity. People do work more in the office. Yes they can track key strokes, work out put, etc. They do that in offices these days all over the place. Companies are constantyl having to be on employees to make sure that they're meeting performance goals. People still don't make them, sitting right there in the office. With the distractoins at hime, that's going to be even more of an issue. If they have to fire the person for not producing, then they have to hire someone else. It can take thousands of dollares to hire a new emploee, especailly when you factor in advertisement costs, hiring processes, back ground checks, and training. $3000 to bring in a new employee is not unusual. There are people that hire on to jobs like call centers just to go to the training, and then quit, and go for another similar company, go to the training, rinse repeat. Obviously it's something different for say a computer programmer since there isn't going to be training involved. Second problem is security. All that firewall work and wi-fi blocking paint and on and on is going to be a big waste of money if you've got hundreds of employees signing on all over the 'plex. Much more secure to have all of the access points in the same area. There's also the issue of managerial over sight. Much more effective to walk down an aisle to chew someone out then call them. |
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May 11 2007, 06:08 PM
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#14
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
one thing that comes to mind:
there is no "one size fits all" as in, different solutions for different tasks. what is the "office" there for? when one knows that, one can judge the security and staff needed. also, whats the chance of said building being both the office and the home? as in, having some floors be the office area, and some floors the apartments of the staff? its a single building, but also a kind of enclave ;) |
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May 11 2007, 06:18 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
This is an erroneous statement. You base it on the assumption that the company bears any cost whatsoever for commute time. That is not the case. A PROGRESSIVE company in which you work at a PROGRESSIVE POSITION might offer some form of compensation for your commute time but it's not likely. The cost of commuting is born almost entirely by the worker and the worker's home government. Ooops, you're a Renraku citizen? Sorry we don't offer mileage and gas tax credits for commuting/sales calls. You also have to keep in mind vis a vis paper output what the legal climate might be like. I find it hard to believe that the UCAS IRS, SEC, and Law Courts don't require a physical copy of contracts and filings. Most things will be 100% electronic in 2070 but there is probably still a requirement to have certain key documents in paper. Not to mention the ease with which an electronic copy can be messed with. "Hey, Ares! You didn't follow the letter of this contract with us!" "But that's not the contract we signed, see here's our copy." Call the lawyers. I have to agree with Fist on the issue of productivity. At work the distractions are limited to whatever the company puts on your computer and your coworkers. At home there are nearly inifinitely more distractions, not to mention you can write a program to spoof the keystroke counting program. On top of all that it is much easier to chew out an employee face to face. When you tele-yell it doesn't have the same effect. Same goes for instructions, tasks, and meetings. It is much harder to keep people focused and productive when they aren't gathered together in a work place. |
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May 11 2007, 06:32 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Employees working from home seems like a security nightmare. I can't imagine any business doing work it deems valuable to anyone (ie. shareholders) advocating this arrangement, especially in a world like Shadowrun. How can you consider having your employees store potentially valuable data off site?? A "run of the mill" wi-fi-inhibited office building routing its traffice through a secure connection isn't perfect, but it's a much more protective arrangement. The network the building uses to communicate with the outside world is a route in for a hacker, yes, but so what? You have to get access to that network in order to see anything behind the wi-fi blockers. I'm not sure what point you're making by saying that everything is distributed. |
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May 11 2007, 07:58 PM
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#17
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Your first point is completely invalidated by the Matrix's virtual reality. A number of people seem to have the image of a guy typing in front of his monitor from home being what teleworking in 2070 is like. There is no screen! You jack in and appear in a completely true-to life replicated work environment. You ARE in a cubicle. You boss DOES walk around and talk to you. It's almost exactly like being in an office, except your boss can track even MORE info about you, not less. Whatever productivity is available from employees all physically present in one building can be achieved, and surpassed, by Matrix teleworking. |
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May 11 2007, 08:00 PM
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#18
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
EDIT: Backgammon beat me to some of what I was going to say. But I forgive him because he put it better than I was going to. :)
Yes it is and I explicitly stated: you have to pay for by grudginely keeping the employees wages high enough to pay for the travelling. The employee's profit is Wage - Cost of Living. If the Cost of Living goes up because of the expense of commuting all the time, then wage has to be higher to maintain the same profit. Now if you're saying that the company wants to ideally leave the employee with only enough to cover cost of living, then fine. But the cost of living is going to be a lower figure if the company can avoid the employee having to travel in and out every day. That seems simple enough to me. And when competing for the same employees the company that allows telecommuting effectivly offers a substantially higher salary to its employees than the company that doesn't even though that other company is actually paying their employee the same amount. Again, that seems simple enough. As to the requirement to have paper copies, I don't see what that has to do with telecommuting at all. You can print it out at the other end just as easily as you can print it out on the desk next to you. Though that said, I find it hard to believe that paper copies are necessary or signatures required. There are far more effective electronic ways of confirming authenticity than a bit of coloured ink on a page. On productivity, I refer you to my earlier point that any office work that needs to be done by humans in 2070 cannot be routine work. It has to be special if a programe can't do it cheaper. Something that can translate spoken dialogue in a foreign language in real time and get the nuances right costs 1,000 :nuyen: in 2070. Can you imagine what the accounting software does? So I imagine the office workres of 2070 must be doing something at least a little innovative. Speaking personally, I sometimes choose to work from home because I get more done. I see no reason why a culture of telecommuting wouldn't be effective due to an inability to yell at people. Not that I agree you can't - I imagine SIMsense yelling can be pretty darn effective when you have a three foot hologram of your angry face over your employee's desk. The comment about spoofing key strokes is meaningless unless you're suggesting that the program you wrote is producing meaningful work that can't be analysed by the software. And if it is, then I'd certainly hire you. I'm sorry folks, but lack of an ability to yell at people in person is not a sufficient counter-balance in my mind to not having to cover heating costs, lighting costs, ground rent, building rent or building purchase or building construction, cleaners, toilet facilities, parking areas, kitchen areas, health and safety, insurance, increased wages to cover the cost of employee travel, not being able to casually trade workers as needed with other branches or offices, not being able to make employees work even when too ill to come in physically or when in hospital, employees being late in, not being able to have your employees "present" whenever needed. I'm sure I can think of more, if I try. This is off the top of my head. I know that some of my people have relished the usefulness of being able to access our systems from home. It's been a big boost to productivity. I'll post something on the security angle a little later, when I have time. -K. |
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May 11 2007, 08:05 PM
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#19
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Heh! How hard would you work if you knew that you Boss ran Stealth rating 4 on his commlink? :D |
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May 11 2007, 08:08 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
unless he was actually present most of the time, probably not any harder... out of sight, out of mind, and all that. the *real* question is, how much harder would you work if your base had a bunch of agents at his disposal running stealth 4 and analyse 4, constantly reporting on what employees are doing? :P |
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May 11 2007, 08:10 PM
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#21
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
heh, ninja trained corp inspection service ;)
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May 11 2007, 08:49 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Yes it is and I explicitly stated: you have to pay for by grudginely keeping the employees wages high enough to pay for the travelling. The employee's profit is Wage - Cost of Living. If the Cost of Living goes up because of the expense of commuting all the time, then wage has to be higher to maintain the same profit. Now if you're saying that the company wants to ideally leave the employee with only enough to cover cost of living, then fine. But the cost of living is going to be a lower figure if the company can avoid the employee having to travel in and out every day. That seems simple enough to me. And when competing for the same employees the company that allows telecommuting effectivly offers a substantially higher salary to its employees than the company that doesn't even though that other company is actually paying their employee the same amount. Again, that seems simple enough.>>> Again you are wrong. The reason people commute to work in the first place is because they are living somewhere that ALREADY has a lower cost of living. Only the super rich live somewhere where the cost of living is higher BEFORE commuting into work (or else those who are somehow restricted in their choice of living. Here's an SR example. Assume it is cheaper to live in Tacoma than it is to live Downtown. Now assume that all the jobs are Downtown. Not everyone can afford to live Downtown so they move out to Tacoma where the Cost of Living is cheaper than Downtown. If the cost of commuting is less than the difference between living downtown and living in tacoma then people start flocking to tacoma. This is a basic principle of Suburbanization. The cost is not borne by the company. It is born by the employee. Skill level is what determines your wages. It takes more skill to be an accountant than it does to flip burgers. So the accountant gets paid more than the McEmployee. The McEmployee is forced to live near to his work and probably take public transit. The cost of living near the skyscraper is high so the accountant moves to the 'burbs. His cost of living in the burbs + commute expenses is still less than cost of living downtown. His wages don't change at all. All he could possibly get would be some tax credits. I think however that I'm going to stop arguing this topic with you because looking at your further comments I can tell that you are firmly entrenched in your view of how things should work and won't budge. |
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May 11 2007, 09:00 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
In todays world.
Many offices don't actually allow you to take your work home with you. (that doesn't mean people don't do it). The reason being security issues at home. What good is saving money on paying employees to come into work if all your data is stolen when a chip-head robs employee 7617BD house and steals his comlink and sells it to a Fixer. You already have problems with shadowrunners not you want just regular criminals to have the chance to swip that stuff. Hey that makes the run easy, mug the guy and steal his comlink on his way to the bar. Knasser you claim that it has to be something special for it not to be done by computers. (well then what does 99% of the worlds SINers do for a living?) Then why would they take such a huge security risk as having them work from home. If they get robbed all that work can go with it. If you don't buy all the reasons for going into the office. DISPEL YOUR DISBELIEF!!!! IT IS A FACT they exist in Shadowrun, you can't dispute it anymore then you can dispute the existence of a cyberarm. Telecommuting from home sounds like this warm fuzzy future. not shadowrun. Your cost of living argument also assumes if they work from home. They never have to leave home. Well I'm sure the exec's can afford to have food and anything else delivered most can't so they need money for transportation anyway the cost of going into work is nothing compared to the working from home security issues which can NEVER BE SOLVED. |
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May 11 2007, 09:37 PM
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#24
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the warm fuzzy that only a corp wageslave can get, not a freelance runner or other non-corp... that is the element not to forget, sell your "soul" to the corp or stay free but potentially hungry and cold? as for cost of transportation. have a noodle shop on one floor, have the offices on other floors, toss the apartments of the workers on the rest of the floors (with the penthouse being for the CEO or similar high up person... its incredible what you can fit inside a tower these days ;) |
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May 11 2007, 09:40 PM
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#25
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Please don't. Or at least don't because you think it is a useless online argument. I appreciate comments and I didn't start this thread so that I could have a lot of people saying "Gosh - you're so right." What good would that be? I do think currently that offices don't make sense in the SR2070 setting and I'll argue against any counter-arguments people come up with until I find one that I can't. And if someone comes up with a solid reason why offices make sense, then I will have benefited. You have my word that I'm being objective and I'm sorry if it has sounded otherwise. I still don't agree with your point about cost of living and I'm about to say why in more detail. But don't think I don't appreciate hearing it. And remember that there are a lot of people who read these threads and if I'm spouting rubbish then you contradicting me offers others a counterargument that might be useful to them. And to bring in Jack Kain's point as well:
We have had several debates on how cyberarms work. Also magic and economics. We could suspend disbelief for all of them and not consider the how and why, but I think we've several times thrashed out nice fluff explanations for something that would otherwise just be arbitrary and made the Shadowrun world that bit more believable as a result. Now I've come up with lots of material to make sense of some of the matrix and cyberware. I haven't been able to make sense of offices given the technology available. Yes - it's a game and I can do as you do and turn a blind eye, but for purposes of this thread, I'm interested in finding something that is internally consistent with the setting. I'll therefore argue against anything that doesn't make sense to me, but I very much don't want anyone thinking it's a personal attack on them or that I'm going to stick dogmatically to some point of view. I'll go with wherever the argument leads. I'm afraid at the moment, it leads me to believe that there is no good reason for there to be more than a small handful of offices and I do feel that there is yet to be a good case against this. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 16th June 2026 - 07:59 AM |
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