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Dayhawk
post May 15 2007, 06:47 PM
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So in less then a month I am going to try and run my 1st shadowrun game. But from what I have read, having around 8 dice seems typical for starting characters on actions they are good at.

Problem is most of the players I have in my group have really min/maxxed everything so they have around 16 dice, with one saying he should have 25 dice on a magic check to mind control people.

Using the rule of 4 dice being a hit, it appears to me that they won't have to roll for almost anything they do in those area's.

My guess is we are reading the rules wrong.

What do you think?

Thanks for your help.
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X-Kalibur
post May 15 2007, 06:55 PM
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Actually, I'd say 10-12 dice is average for a starting character that is "good" in an area. If they want to min/max out one area they are going to be sorely lacking in others. In fact, it's terribly easy to make a character that excels and rolls almost 20, if not more, dice in 1 or 2 skills. The challenge is in making one that can perform well in a variety of roles (and rolls for that matter) while still somewhat excelling in an area.

If it's a big issue though, have a dice limit. No more than X dice for any skill (I think my group set it around 15). This forces them to use points in other areas and round out their character better.
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Demerzel
post May 15 2007, 07:01 PM
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It also depends a lot on the pool you're referring to. I can't think off the top of my head how a spellcasting mental manipulation could get to 25 dice. But social tests, among some others it's not far fetched.
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Unarmed
post May 15 2007, 07:04 PM
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Yeah, it's really easy to make an elven social adept who is rolling 16+ dice on the whole of the influence skill group. Good times.

Really, if you're concerned, then you should perhaps put a cap on it. We've been capping max hits at Skill Rating+2 (to make skills worth their cost, among other things), so if you had a hit cap of some kind it would make rolling more dice less effective. As mentioned already, you can also just cap the number of dice that people are rolling, but you should let your parents know that before they make their characters.
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ornot
post May 15 2007, 07:04 PM
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Are you using standard 400BP character creation rules?

Assuming magic maxed to 6, and spellcasting maxed to 7 (with aptitude), and a specialisation in manipulation spells, and an appropriate mentor spirit and edge maxed to 8 (with lucky) he would have a dice pool of 25. Of course he's broken the 35 BP +ve quality cap by 15BP. And spent 160BP on Magic and Edge alone.

Alternatively he might be planning on using a spirit to boost his spellcasting dice pool, but summoning a potent enough spirit is dangerous.

16 dice is not uncommon for PCs, although the characters will be limited in other areas. It would not be hard to put them in situations where their dice pools are a more managable 6 or 7 at best.

Also note that PCs can only buy successes with the GM's permission.
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deek
post May 15 2007, 07:23 PM
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First thing I would say is don't allow the rule of 4 dice being a hit. Its optional and at your discretion. It say high dice pools only, and I set that at 30+ dice. Personally, I really don't want any of my PCs auto-hitting anything.

Second, I have also implemented a skill cap rule. The rule is no more than Skill Rating + 1 successes. Now, I have house-rules an "improved specialization" where a PC can buy up a specialization to "improved", which provides a skill cap max of Skill Rating x 2. Now, this costs 10BP or 20 Karma, and since it is limited to existing specializations, they can only have one per skill.

With those two, plus making sure as a GM you are really applying all the modifiers for visibility and combat, then those die pools should come down quite a bit.

While none of my players have really min/maxed, there are several with die pools of 12-15, but after range, visibility, cover, etc, they are normally down to single digit dice pool...
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fool
post May 15 2007, 07:24 PM
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just force them to use skills that aren't maxed out. That'll learn real quick. Put em in a mana ebb where they actually have to use the climb skill to get to the target. etc
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 15 2007, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (deek)
First thing I would say is don't allow the rule of 4 dice being a hit.

Well, if you like a roll for everything...
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odinson
post May 15 2007, 07:31 PM
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Or give them a job where they need to hit two targets at once. Forces the group to divide and makes them even weaker, and really hurts the min maxers.
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Dayhawk
post May 15 2007, 07:43 PM
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Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will do the dice cap to 16 at least to start.

Also, looking at his character I think he made a mistake thinking you can use the Increase Attribute spell to increase his Magic score. But I will have to ask him about that. Unforchantly he is a the kind of player who makes cheesy characters. In this case his mage uses shapechange to be a dog, gainging the physical attributes while using his mental ones. Thus all his physical are 1's.

Anyways, thanks. I like the cap idea.

Oh... I love the climb idea. Kind of hard to climb when your a dog. :P
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 15 2007, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Dayhawk)
I think I will do the dice cap to 16 at least to start.

You know, SR4 already has caps... why not stick with those, first? ;)

Getting that much dice for spellcasting seems unlikely in the first place.
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Dayhawk
post May 15 2007, 07:49 PM
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noob here, I must had missed where the caps were listed. I will check the book again. Thanks
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deek
post May 15 2007, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (deek @ May 15 2007, 09:23 PM)
First thing I would say is don't allow the rule of 4 dice being a hit.

Well, if you like a roll for everything...

True...but you still have to designate where the cutoff is to allow everyone to trade in 4 dice for an automatic success. I chose 30...someone else might thing that 16 or 20 is a good threshold.

I find that anything under 30 is still going to have a decent amount of penalties, and my players would rather roll the fistful of dice, than not. Granted, with skill caps, all they have to do is count "some" successes, as anything past that cap, is meaningless.

In this example, the guy with 25 dice for his mage, well, that is an automatic 6 successes on any test he would normally have to make...in my game, I wouldn't like that, and I've got rules setup that wouldn't allow auto-successes until the dice pool is at 30...

And I'd argue that a magic control check to mind control is an important enough test to need a roll...but YMMV.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 15 2007, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (deek)
True...but you still have to designate where the cutoff is to allow everyone to trade in 4 dice for an automatic success.

That's easy. If you can buy success by trading 4 dice for 1 hit, that dicepool is large enough. ;)
Statistically, is a bad trade-off, and you are very likely to see much more hits when actually rolling.

On the other hand, any 'active' test should be rolled, for that reason.
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Demerzel
post May 15 2007, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (Dayhawk)
Thus all his physical are 1's.

The number 1 warning sign. A character with all physical attributes at 1. I catch a lot of flak on these boards for saying things like this. But I would never allow a build like that in my game. I would look at the character sheet and say, no sorry.

It's too munchkin. It's an attempt to abuse the system, no thanks.
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Shadow
post May 15 2007, 08:15 PM
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In the BBB it says-

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 55)
Buying Hits
If the gamemaster allows it, a character may trade in 4 dice from her dice pool in exchange for an automatic hit. Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character might suff er bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits. Buying hits is an all-or-nothing aff air; you cannot spend part of your pool to buy hits and then make a test with the rest.


I take this to mean that you cannot use this rule if you are shooting, being shot, ressisting drain etc. You can use to build things, repair things, modify things. If there is any chance that the failure of said test could be immediatly life threatining, make em roll.
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Dayhawk
post May 15 2007, 08:15 PM
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So from what it sounds like, I should only allow 4 for 1 when it is something more passive, like resisting wounds or such?

I was kind of hoping to use it more as I have 8 players, and the system seems really detailed verse D20 where it was very simple. (I'm totally done with D20 btw)

Oh, I looked at the character and it seems to me he would have 17 dice normally and 24 with edge.

Magic 5 + Spellcasting (Manipulation) 7 + Spellcasting Focus (Manipulation) 5

With his edge of 7 (human) he could get to 24.

But with 24 dice using edge, I doubt he would do a 4 for 1 because of the rule of 6's...
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WhiskeyMac
post May 15 2007, 08:15 PM
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Hey, if he wants to be a dog, let him. Just let him know that dogs can't cast spells, can't summon spirits, can't banish spirits, and can't provide counterspelling dice. However, they can piss on fire hydrants, bark, bite people and turn around 3 times before laying down to sleep. :vegm:
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Demerzel
post May 15 2007, 08:17 PM
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That spellcasting focus is not availiable at character generation. It violates the Availability 12 cap at chargen.
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Shadow
post May 15 2007, 08:18 PM
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Another thing you can do is only have edge refresh every 2 or 3 game sessions. We have had a player in our game who (I don't want to say abused edge) bought up his edge to max. Pretty much every roll he would be edge this and edge that. He would turn ridiculously hard rolls into nothing by using 2 or 3 points of edge (he had 7 total). By not refreshing edge as regularly it made him think twice before rolling it out.
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Kyoto Kid
post May 15 2007, 08:19 PM
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...letsee: KK with Blades 6 (specialised in Katana +2) + Agility 5, + Weapon Focus power 2, + Improved Combat - (Blades): 2 = 17 (18 if reach is superior).

...not bad for a 4' 10" human chica.
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Demerzel
post May 15 2007, 08:20 PM
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You also should not be able to use edge more than once on a single test.
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WhiskeyMac
post May 15 2007, 08:20 PM
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So just for Magic and Edge ability he's spent about 100BP (50BP for Edge, 10BP for Magician, 40BP for Magic) and then Spellcasting at 7 would be another 38 (28BP plus Aptitude at 10BP). That's almost 150BP just to be able to cast spells with 24 dice. Edge that high is helpful but with Spellcasting 7 he can't have any other skills over 4 until after chargen.
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Dayhawk
post May 15 2007, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (Demerzel)
That spellcasting focus is not availiable at character generation. It violates the Availability 12 cap at chargen.

Ahhh. Thanks!
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Shadow
post May 15 2007, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (Demerzel)
You also should not be able to use edge more than once on a single test.

Should or can't? Is it a rule? If so what page 'cause I would like to throw it at the affor mentioned edge monkey.
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