So in less then a month I am going to try and run my 1st shadowrun game. But from what I have read, having around 8 dice seems typical for starting characters on actions they are good at.

Problem is most of the players I have in my group have really min/maxxed everything so they have around 16 dice, with one saying he should have 25 dice on a magic check to mind control people.

Using the rule of 4 dice being a hit, it appears to me that they won't have to roll for almost anything they do in those area's.

My guess is we are reading the rules wrong.

What do you think?

Thanks for your help.

Actually, I'd say 10-12 dice is average for a starting character that is "good" in an area. If they want to min/max out one area they are going to be sorely lacking in others. In fact, it's terribly easy to make a character that excels and rolls almost 20, if not more, dice in 1 or 2 skills. The challenge is in making one that can perform well in a variety of roles (and rolls for that matter) while still somewhat excelling in an area.

If it's a big issue though, have a dice limit. No more than X dice for any skill (I think my group set it around 15). This forces them to use points in other areas and round out their character better.

It also depends a lot on the pool you're referring to. I can't think off the top of my head how a spellcasting mental manipulation could get to 25 dice. But social tests, among some others it's not far fetched.

Yeah, it's really easy to make an elven social adept who is rolling 16+ dice on the whole of the influence skill group. Good times.

Really, if you're concerned, then you should perhaps put a cap on it. We've been capping max hits at Skill Rating+2 (to make skills worth their cost, among other things), so if you had a hit cap of some kind it would make rolling more dice less effective. As mentioned already, you can also just cap the number of dice that people are rolling, but you should let your parents know that before they make their characters.

Are you using standard 400BP character creation rules?

Assuming magic maxed to 6, and spellcasting maxed to 7 (with aptitude), and a specialisation in manipulation spells, and an appropriate mentor spirit and edge maxed to 8 (with lucky) he would have a dice pool of 25. Of course he's broken the 35 BP +ve quality cap by 15BP. And spent 160BP on Magic and Edge alone.

Alternatively he might be planning on using a spirit to boost his spellcasting dice pool, but summoning a potent enough spirit is dangerous.

16 dice is not uncommon for PCs, although the characters will be limited in other areas. It would not be hard to put them in situations where their dice pools are a more managable 6 or 7 at best.

Also note that PCs can only buy successes with the GM's permission.

First thing I would say is don't allow the rule of 4 dice being a hit. Its optional and at your discretion. It say high dice pools only, and I set that at 30+ dice. Personally, I really don't want any of my PCs auto-hitting anything.

Second, I have also implemented a skill cap rule. The rule is no more than Skill Rating + 1 successes. Now, I have house-rules an "improved specialization" where a PC can buy up a specialization to "improved", which provides a skill cap max of Skill Rating x 2. Now, this costs 10BP or 20 Karma, and since it is limited to existing specializations, they can only have one per skill.

With those two, plus making sure as a GM you are really applying all the modifiers for visibility and combat, then those die pools should come down quite a bit.

While none of my players have really min/maxed, there are several with die pools of 12-15, but after range, visibility, cover, etc, they are normally down to single digit dice pool...

just force them to use skills that aren't maxed out. That'll learn real quick. Put em in a mana ebb where they actually have to use the climb skill to get to the target. etc

Or give them a job where they need to hit two targets at once. Forces the group to divide and makes them even weaker, and really hurts the min maxers.

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will do the dice cap to 16 at least to start.

Also, looking at his character I think he made a mistake thinking you can use the Increase Attribute spell to increase his Magic score. But I will have to ask him about that. Unforchantly he is a the kind of player who makes cheesy characters. In this case his mage uses shapechange to be a dog, gainging the physical attributes while using his mental ones. Thus all his physical are 1's.

Anyways, thanks. I like the cap idea.

Oh... I love the climb idea. Kind of hard to climb when your a dog.

noob here, I must had missed where the caps were listed. I will check the book again. Thanks

In the BBB it says-

So from what it sounds like, I should only allow 4 for 1 when it is something more passive, like resisting wounds or such?

I was kind of hoping to use it more as I have 8 players, and the system seems really detailed verse D20 where it was very simple. (I'm totally done with D20 btw)

Oh, I looked at the character and it seems to me he would have 17 dice normally and 24 with edge.

Magic 5 + Spellcasting (Manipulation) 7 + Spellcasting Focus (Manipulation) 5

With his edge of 7 (human) he could get to 24.

But with 24 dice using edge, I doubt he would do a 4 for 1 because of the rule of 6's...

Hey, if he wants to be a dog, let him. Just let him know that dogs can't cast spells, can't summon spirits, can't banish spirits, and can't provide counterspelling dice. However, they can piss on fire hydrants, bark, bite people and turn around 3 times before laying down to sleep.

That spellcasting focus is not availiable at character generation. It violates the Availability 12 cap at chargen.

Another thing you can do is only have edge refresh every 2 or 3 game sessions. We have had a player in our game who (I don't want to say abused edge) bought up his edge to max. Pretty much every roll he would be edge this and edge that. He would turn ridiculously hard rolls into nothing by using 2 or 3 points of edge (he had 7 total). By not refreshing edge as regularly it made him think twice before rolling it out.

...letsee: KK with Blades 6 (specialised in Katana +2) + Agility 5, + Weapon Focus power 2, + Improved Combat - (Blades): 2 = 17 (18 if reach is superior).

...not bad for a 4' 10" human chica.

You also should not be able to use edge more than once on a single test.

So just for Magic and Edge ability he's spent about 100BP (50BP for Edge, 10BP for Magician, 40BP for Magic) and then Spellcasting at 7 would be another 38 (28BP plus Aptitude at 10BP). That's almost 150BP just to be able to cast spells with 24 dice. Edge that high is helpful but with Spellcasting 7 he can't have any other skills over 4 until after chargen.

Mac, keep in mind he didn't spend any build points on physical attributes... That leaves a lot for doing silly things like you described.

My rule is: if taking the time to stop and roll dice would add tension to the situation and enhance the action (more fun) then roll, but if stopping to roll dice would break the flow and distract from the action (less fun) allow 4:1 trade-in.
Everything is on a case-by-case basis, but my player's rapidly learn my standards an either just reach for their dice or ask me if buying X hits is enough. If I say it's not (for dramatic reasons or just because it's not enough hits) then they roll.
That aside, I don't care if it's combat or not. I might let them just buy hits to kill the last wounded guard if they're not in much danger (ie, the fight has already been decided, they WILL win, it's just a couple dice rolls away), and even if they take a minor hit it won't be an issue, then maybe I'd rather just tell them that they finish off the last guard and we move on with the plot.
So based on that I might let them buy 1 hit with 4 dice, or I might not let them buy hits on 30 dice, in combat or not, it all just depends on which option I feel would make the game more fun at that particular moment.
It may seem arbitrary (and it is), but my players always have the right to roll if they want to, the buying hits rule is just there to get foregone conclusions over with.

The attributes have the maximum normal caps and augmented maximum caps. The augmented maximum is 1.5 times the regular maximum and this applies to any type of augmentation, be it magical of cyber. Magic is another story where it has a maximum of 6 + initiation grade. The increase attribute spell doesn't work on magic, and for boosting other abilities one must have more force than the augmented value to boost it, so boosting attributes that are already high puts a caster at risk of suffering physical drain.

Though I understand what you mean, one of the characters in my campaign has maxed agility, and maxed pistol skill plus a bunch of cyber to boost it even further.
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I think he was implying that if he wanted to be a dog then don't give him a character, just tell him to roleplay a dog.

I don't mean to be mean, but if this player were not willing to do some balancing of his character then I'd apologize to him that he seems to nto be in the correct game group. But that's just me and I'm more than likely an ass when it comes to that kind of thing.

Sounds like a general disconnect between that this particular player is looking for in the game and what the GM is looking for in the game. Add the other players into the mix, and everyone needs to have a nice chat and figure out what kind of game they're playing before this goes much farther.

...on the average, I have found actually rolling my tests out tends to yield better results than going for the 4 : 1 exchange.

Many times the fewer dice in the pool. the better proportion of hits to dice I seem to get. On several (crucial) occasions during one session, I went 3-4 hits out of 5 dice and even did 5 of 5.

I don't really have a problem with him being in "dog" form. Odd's are likely that 2 or 3 games in he will make a new character.

Mostly I was just concerned with the idea that 4 successes are the target for a very hard task, and it seems that starting characters can perform these sorts of things with ease.

For times when a player uses edge it should not be hard to achieve 4 successes.

On a task for which a particular character is specialized in, then it should not be uncommon to get very difficult tasks done without edge. The thing is that there should not be a specialist for every situation possible. I don't like running groups of 8, I feel crowded at 5 players.

The problem isn't the dog form, it's the fact that he took only 1 in all his physical attributes.

I agree with Moon-hawk on the way he uses the 4:1 rule...that is how I would likely do it if I didn't just throw a 30 dice pool requirement in my game. I basically did that because I didn't want players trading in dice and again, with skill caps, with a max skill of 6 (or 7 with aptitude), no matter how many dice are being thrown, they only have to count up to 7 or 8...

I haven't had a play ask (after our first session) if they could trade in dice, so it hasn't been a problem.

I see. Well this has been very helpful.

Thank you all for your idea's.

I love the setting! Just having a hard time grasping the rules. While im not afraid to challenge my players, I don't want the first game we play to be frustrating.

Thanks again!

I might also point out the fun you can have with that munchkinized dog-mage when they critically glitch their shapechange. "Oh, so sorry, mentally you're a dog too. And you used your sustaining focus? Man, you're so screwed, hope you have friends you can trust." Even glitches could be amusing... uncontrolled barking or whining, tests to avoid chasing after another dog, transforming into a pregnant dog, disorientation in new form (dice penalty dependent upon degree of glitch). I always figure abused magic will end up abusing you in the end.

let him shapechange into a dog. first thing the opposing mage does is use his counterspelling skill to dispel the sustained shapechange spell and then the sec guard shoots him once with a pistol. with all 1's for physical attributes and because armour and clothing doesn't change he would be naked, so 1 reaction to dodge, then 1 body to soak damage. seems like he's a dead mage if you ask me.


I wonder when there's gonna be a metamagic technique that alows counter-counterspelling.

You know the counter-spelling thing is a good point.

Isn't there a spell which provides a magical armor like force?

My guess is that anyone with the ability to see aura's would know he is a mage yes?

I better have a good talk with him, last thing I need to deal with is his character dying after an hour into game play.

Also since equipment doesn't change forms wouldn't his spellcasting focus/any equipment be useless to him? Meaning he'd have to sustain the spell himself and thus take a -2 penalty on every other test. That's just personally how I'd handle it unless he were carrying around his sustaining focus in his mouth as a dog, and then in all likelihood even as a dog he is going to get shot have no armor and get5 killed rather easily.

I mean in a world where corp sec guards are trained to deal with mages first you'd think they'd kill any animal they see breaking into the facility, especially those that are dragging a random item.

Has there been any requirement as to what a focus looks like in 4th ed? If not then his sustaining focus could simply be a dog collar. Doesn't solve what the sec. mage is going to do to him though. But would make it possible for him to carry it without being obvious.

Really I mean the dog thing isn't going to get him killed so much as the 1's in physical stats.

Colt Manhunter (reg Ammo) 5P -1
Avg Sec Guard 8 Dice pool.
Avg Successes 3.

Mage rolls reaction to dodge, 4 dice. Gets 1 success. Now he must suck a 7P.

Second Shot. 5p -1, 8 Dice, 3 Successes.

Mage rolls to dodge, 2 dice, no successes (-2 for second dodge). Now he has to soak a 8p. Wich he can't do with 5 dice. So say he abosrbed 5P last time, and 6P this time, that puts him at 11P, which is way more than his 1 body gives him. So yeah, sorry he's dead.

The focus won't transform, but you could probably make some sort of assumption as to what would be necessary to keep it connected. Some sort of flexable collar would be a good example. You don't want to be too restrictive however, as what would happen if you choose to become a bear instead of a dog and then you're either choking or just broke your focus.

You could have a small pill shaped focus that you just swallow, and every time you pass it swallow it again... A good munchkin will find many ways to get around that problem... Sew it into your skin perhaps...

In my experience with the Shapechange spell it is good for style or for specialized tasks (player turned into a sparrow to get away from vamps in OtR or player who turned into cat to check out a safehouse) but for constant use it usually results in a rapidly dead mage.