I personally would apply augmented maximums to animals. The book says that critter stats can be moved 3 in any particular direction to indicate the normal variances in animals. So a dogs normal maximums would be 5 for strength and body and 6 for reaction and agility, making augmented maximums 7 for body and strength and 9 for agility and reaction.

Sure said mage will be doing well at those stats, but it is limiting(and I feel magic needs some limits). Other than that I'd be very restrictive of sustaining foci used for that particular spell.

Agree with Leehouse on caps.

That helps limit.

Also:

Seriously think about addictions ....

If he is spending 50% of his time shape-changed, that clearly is an addicted behaviour.

If a sustaining foci is maintaining this, then that ALSO is an addiction.

He can't talk / communicate with the rest of the party. Wihle he can understand their spoken words, commlink communication and/or the mage communicating back isnt going to work.

Might have to read the rules again, but the shapechange wont go through a ward will it? so he is going to be forcing his way through every single ward the pass.

That I have read nothing directly states whether 'pressing through' a ward alerts the owner of the ward. If you presume it does, then the mage 'stealthing' in is going to be very hard.

An elevator. A nice force 10 ward. Character is forced through. And stands a good chance of being an unconcious human lying on the floor for the alerted security to deal with.

As shapechange is a sustained spell it will at the very least ping any wards he goes through. Also, being a dog is pretty limited, even a really f'ing big dog.

First things first though, tell him to make his character without breaking the availability caps. And remember that he has to bind any foci he buys with BPs too.

I don't know about other groups, but in general I give back 1 point of edge each time we meet for a run and consider giving back another point if they do something utterly spectacular.

the dog also won't have any armor. so any time he takes damage, he's taking physical most likely.

also, no armor means no inexpensive elemental effect resistances or anything like that.

shapechanging into a dog means that his 'ware won't change with him, so he can forget about being the ever amazing lightly cybered mage, which is a very potent strategy.

that being said, i'd probably actually cap him at his natural augmented max. i don't recall anything that says a human's augmented max stats become any different when they shapechange. the default for a human is max 9 in all stats... still very good, but not all that mindblowingly good.

I believe that you can convert munchkins to better players, you just need the right voltage.

Well in a Science Fiction game I ran as a GM, the players turned a munchkin/power gamer into a well suited party member.

You can do it, but your players will have to help.

On the subject of "high" dice pools, they are only a problem if you misuse the rule for "buying successes". A dice pool of 16 or more is not munchkin - it is normal for a standard, 400 BP campaign. For most characters, rolling for their specialty, you will have soft-maxed Attribute of 5, usually boosted to 7 with 'ware, a primary skill of 5 or 6 with specialization, then modifiers such as adept improved ability, smartlinks, reflex recorders, etc. So 16 dice or more are very easy to get, and don't symbolize some kind of broken character.

Keep in mind, though, that this is the amount of dice that they sling when they are unwounded, unfatigued, and enjoying perfect visibility against targets unprotected by cover. Use modifiers, have enemies use some basic tactics, and the group will be challenged. They may still kick butt, but they are kind of supposed to - these aren't first-level D&D characters, but seasoned pros, not the uppermost echelon yet but with the potential to get there someday, and the ability to give the big boys a run for their money under the right circumstances.

If that doesn't sound quite like the setting you had in mind, that's fine. You don't need house rules, either. SR4 is extremely customizable, with lots of optional rules for lower-powered starting characters, grittier or more cinematic campaigns, ways you can limit Edge or dice pools, and so on. Most can be found on pg. 69.

First things first, for shapechange specialists you really have to apply the augmented attribute maximums. I think it makes sense touse the maximums of *the animal*, using the stats in the book as "racial average". So a Dog's absolute maximum BARS is 7 9 9 7.Still fearsome, but not stupid. And no better than a top notch sammy in any case (and without the skills to back it up).

So, to get that he needs 8 hits, so he'll have to roll rather than buy. Now, by my ruling of the Edge and Sorcery rules, "This limitation does not apply to Edge dice that are used to boost a spell" (SR4, p172) means just that. When you choose to use Edge before rolling, you have to roll your normal dice, rerolling any sixes, then total those hits, then round down to Force if need be. Then you roll your Edge dice, rerolling any sixes, and add those on afterwards.

So that means even with 7 exploding Edge dice you can really only hope for 2-4 successes over the limit, and that's if you can hit the limit without your Edge dice. So this guy really needs to cast around Force 5 to guarantee that maxed doggy physique. Which is 4S drain, not to be sneezed at, and beyond starting spellcasting focus limits. So he's got -2 on *everything else* he does. Next he'll need some armour, so now the dog is glowing in meatspace and blazing like the sun on the Astral.

For what? 7 (maybe 5, if you have to sustain Armour too) dodge dice? The ability to tear people limb from limb if only you'd put some skillpoints into Unarmed Combat? The agility of a Sam, only without opposable thumbs? Instant recognisability, massive lack of street cred (Hahaha, hear about the puppy-mage? Baddest chihuahua ever, only he's a wimp when he's at home), a big astral sign that says "Dispel me, I'm a moron!" and the life expectancy of, well, a guy who's discovered one trick and thinks it will make him the top dog in a complicated, trecherous and deadly world.

Well, as GM I wouldn't really bother about the shapechanging much since the player (or the OP when recounting what the player said) stated he could roll 24 dice, using Edge, specifically on mind control spells. Of course, since MC spells are the bane of magic's existance, that threat has already been hashed and re-hashed on these boards.

In my own opinion, I would think the character wouldn't have any street cred like Narmio said and also people would be very unlikely to run with him. Honestly, who here would want to go on complex breaking and entering jobs with some stupid douche who decides he wants to be a fraggin labrador all day? Yeah, he can throw some killer fireballs or mind control that guard but he would make Mr. Johnson and your fixer go into hysterical fits of laughter just mentioning him. I know I would just look at him, watch him change, pick up his gear and leave while laughing my ass off.

Now here's a question: Does the body revert to normal when the person under a shapechange spell dies, specificly if it's the mage that's sustaining the spell that is the victim?

If the answer is 'No' then you just killed a dog and you're a mean bastard, but it's all legal and good. You just raked in some cash on the mage's gear and his slice of the run payment.

or alternatively, you could just have an opposing mage cast mana static and let the opposing security forces tear him to pieces

Does a human who pretends to be a Labrador all day long and can mind control people have more or less street cred than a Labrador who pretends to be a human all day long and can mind control people?

I think people have covered the rules aspect pretty well already. Now think about what you as a GM have to add to this.

First, as he walks down the street, is he licensed? If not, he's going to get picked up by Animal Control. If he's not careful, he gets knocked out and wakes up neutered. That would be the best method of removing this character from your game.

Second, fleas. Awakened fleas. Awakened ghoul fleas. Awakened physical adept ghoul fleas that carry HMHVV.

Third, he's a dog. Dogs have a incredibly fine nose, able to smell things we can't and that we don't WANT to smell. Some people in the SR universe are homeless, and don't bathe. Some runners perform very strenuous activities and don't rush home for a shower.

Fourth, there's other dogs. Other dogs don't like strange new dogs, especially strange new dogs that don't know anything about acting like a dog. You could cure him of that shapechange habit with a simple run-in with four or five feral dogs. Sure, he can nuke one or two a round, but the others are busy chewing his guts out.

Fifth, no dogs are allowed in the bar where the Johnson is waiting for the team. When he's in the bar, have a barfight break out. Then watch as he either throws a couple spells and becomes main target, or takes one punch and a nap.

I once had a player who spent most of her time shapechanged into a cat. And once word got out what the cat really was, things went sour. What broke her of that habit was a very short-tempered dwarf bartender using a railroad tie like a baseball bat. When you have the mass of a cat and have a personal physical barrier up, any significantly large force turns you into a pinball or beachball with a cat inside. That brings me to my next point..

Six, how long would it take a person to get used to a new, radically different body, limited non-color sight, vastly increased smell, and a totally different means of moving?

Finally, the seventh point. Devil rats. Lots and lots of devil rats. Pretty much any problem a GM faces can be solved with a liberal application of devil rats.

He should shape change into a monkey. that way he has opposable thumbs and can throw feces.

Well, believe it or not, i found one way to transform munchkiny players is to try first to give them what they want. The more easily salvagable ones get rather bored quickly. Their characters might be so pimped out no one wants to even bother with them except for people who are more pimped out. Eventually it sometimes calms them down.

As for all the success cap talk, Im going to have to play a little of the other side here and say that be careful limiting hits til you give it a good try. What works in one persons game, might not work in yours. That being said, we typically dont see more than 16 dice being rolled..i think a couple of our specialists went to 18 on a skill, with the typical pool being about 12-14 for the speciality. I suppose the cap sounds good for folks who constantly deal with people who roll buckets of dice.

Also keep in mind, IMO, its only fair that if you use PC caps, NPCs should have caps, too. Otherwise it becomes more of a ''GM vs. PC'' thing, and players may eventually catch on that they are getting capped while the NPCs aren't. As a GM i try to keep things fair on both sides. If capping successes works fine in a game, then hell, stay with it...but even with 16 dice, it was rare they got more than half successes anyway, and even less net successes, so we never saw the big problem.

Best usage for success capping(and the one that i think is most useful) is for players who take lots and lots of low ranked skills tied to one of their higher attributes(ie, a load of 1-2 Logic or Agility skills and a maxed Logic or Agility, with implant enhancements.)

Now, in the OPs case, it seems that there are some munchkins involved that sort of need some nerf bat action. (I would also have not accepted the blatantly minmaxed 1 physical attribute down the line character.) One of my favorite methods is the good ol fashioned if they do it, so can i. While i am indeed against Gm vs. PC as i stated...in the case of very hard to communicate with munchkins sometimes the silk glove has to be replaced with an iron gauntlet, if softer methods fail.

Well these turned out to be some great idea's. Thank you everyone.

I talked to him about some of the things said here, and how a few things in his build were wrong for a starting character (having items higher then 12 availability) he decided best to just rebuild the character again.

I guess his plan was to mind control a well to do woman to be his "Master" using one of the foci to keep her under control. I forget the spell, but it allows you to talk to everyone through telepathy, therefore allowing him to tell the woman what to say for him.

One of our players created a scientist so he hoped she would make him armor and gear. (The player is my wife, and she said that she MIGHT provided he paided her enough cash) =p

That plus the armor spell would cover his armor. With shapechange and having 1's in physical stats, the best he could do would be an animal with 3's.

But he also pointed something out about spells.

The Armor spell gives its protection based on Hits, but since drain is based upon Force, why wouldn't people just cast an Armor with a Force of 1.

Then he could have a Sustaining Foci of 1, but using Edge he would have 24 dice to generate hits.

Is there something I missed here?

You can't have more successus than the force of the spell.

That is what I was missing!!!!

Now I just need to find that in the book.

Thank you

So I have been reading the rules again because even twice through I missed alot.

But from what I have seen on the boards, characters able to get 12-16 dice really is not that hard.

So that leads me to believe that most rolls that are made when things happen are done using alot of modifiers.

So say "Bob the elf" is a face man wants to charm and impress a high roller at the bar. He has 16 dice.

The high roller high level corp exec. who is there to unwind after a bad day at the office. She is not in the mood to deal with anyone's bs. She also has a racial hatred of elves.

So I decide that a threshold of 4 is what he needs to hit. (3 because she is not in the mood and +1 because he is an elf)

He says, no problem. With 16 dice its automatic.

Now he is in like flint.

Would this be reasonable to make a higher target number then 4?

Need to read book first instead of replying then editing.

@ Dayhawk: When rolls like the one you described come up, none of my gms would allow a person to buy hits, even if they potentially could have - it makes the game less interesting, imo, if you're guaranteed success to that extent, especially on a skill that requires on-the-spot thinking like that.

However, the times when it is allowed in our group is when the player's character would have little trouble doing that particular action, to avoid the ridiculousness of rolling 16+ dice to beat a threshold of 1.

Negative dicepool mods are a GM's best friend, along with TN's higher than 1.

Additionally: Succeeding at banging a 'not in the mood and hates elves' girl is what that 16+ dice face is famous for being able to do. It's the average schlub who can't make that threshold 4 that it is 'difficult' for.

I see this fairly often: Stuff is too easy for experts to do.

Only, the target numbers are scaled for ordinary people, not hyper-specialists that you see all the time. You make it hard for the 16+ dice guy, you make it impossible for people to make anyone who DOESN"T have16+ dice to toss.

edit: never mind. i am so not getting into this again.

I think the key word is "If the game master allows it" which as we have established, he probably wont.

On a side not, Frank, if you take Full Defense you cannot act, you are just defending.

The BBB is only optional to the GM though...