A starting character rolling 16 dice? Options

[Demerzel]

Mac, keep in mind he didn't spend any build points on physical attributes... That leaves a lot for doing silly things like you described.

[Demerzel]

[Moon-Hawk]

My rule is: if taking the time to stop and roll dice would add tension to the situation and enhance the action (more fun) then roll, but if stopping to roll dice would break the flow and distract from the action (less fun) allow 4:1 trade-in.
Everything is on a case-by-case basis, but my player's rapidly learn my standards an either just reach for their dice or ask me if buying X hits is enough. If I say it's not (for dramatic reasons or just because it's not enough hits) then they roll.
That aside, I don't care if it's combat or not. I might let them just buy hits to kill the last wounded guard if they're not in much danger (ie, the fight has already been decided, they WILL win, it's just a couple dice rolls away), and even if they take a minor hit it won't be an issue, then maybe I'd rather just tell them that they finish off the last guard and we move on with the plot.
So based on that I might let them buy 1 hit with 4 dice, or I might not let them buy hits on 30 dice, in combat or not, it all just depends on which option I feel would make the game more fun at that particular moment.
It may seem arbitrary (and it is), but my players always have the right to roll if they want to, the buying hits rule is just there to get foregone conclusions over with.

[Leehouse]

The attributes have the maximum normal caps and augmented maximum caps. The augmented maximum is 1.5 times the regular maximum and this applies to any type of augmentation, be it magical of cyber. Magic is another story where it has a maximum of 6 + initiation grade. The increase attribute spell doesn't work on magic, and for boosting other abilities one must have more force than the augmented value to boost it, so boosting attributes that are already high puts a caster at risk of suffering physical drain.

Though I understand what you mean, one of the characters in my campaign has maxed agility, and maxed pistol skill plus a bunch of cyber to boost it even further.
.

[Dayhawk]

[Demerzel]

I think he was implying that if he wanted to be a dog then don't give him a character, just tell him to roleplay a dog.

I don't mean to be mean, but if this player were not willing to do some balancing of his character then I'd apologize to him that he seems to nto be in the correct game group. But that's just me and I'm more than likely an ass when it comes to that kind of thing.

[Moon-Hawk]

Sounds like a general disconnect between that this particular player is looking for in the game and what the GM is looking for in the game. Add the other players into the mix, and everyone needs to have a nice chat and figure out what kind of game they're playing before this goes much farther.

[Kyoto Kid]

...on the average, I have found actually rolling my tests out tends to yield better results than going for the 4 : 1 exchange.

Many times the fewer dice in the pool. the better proportion of hits to dice I seem to get. On several (crucial) occasions during one session, I went 3-4 hits out of 5 dice and even did 5 of 5.

[Dayhawk]

I don't really have a problem with him being in "dog" form. Odd's are likely that 2 or 3 games in he will make a new character.

Mostly I was just concerned with the idea that 4 successes are the target for a very hard task, and it seems that starting characters can perform these sorts of things with ease.

[Demerzel]

For times when a player uses edge it should not be hard to achieve 4 successes.

On a task for which a particular character is specialized in, then it should not be uncommon to get very difficult tasks done without edge. The thing is that there should not be a specialist for every situation possible. I don't like running groups of 8, I feel crowded at 5 players.

The problem isn't the dog form, it's the fact that he took only 1 in all his physical attributes.

[deek]

I agree with Moon-hawk on the way he uses the 4:1 rule...that is how I would likely do it if I didn't just throw a 30 dice pool requirement in my game. I basically did that because I didn't want players trading in dice and again, with skill caps, with a max skill of 6 (or 7 with aptitude), no matter how many dice are being thrown, they only have to count up to 7 or 8...

I haven't had a play ask (after our first session) if they could trade in dice, so it hasn't been a problem.

[Dayhawk]

I see. Well this has been very helpful.

Thank you all for your idea's.

I love the setting! Just having a hard time grasping the rules. While im not afraid to challenge my players, I don't want the first game we play to be frustrating.

Thanks again!

[deek]

[Nocturne]

I might also point out the fun you can have with that munchkinized dog-mage when they critically glitch their shapechange. "Oh, so sorry, mentally you're a dog too. And you used your sustaining focus? Man, you're so screwed, hope you have friends you can trust." Even glitches could be amusing... uncontrolled barking or whining, tests to avoid chasing after another dog, transforming into a pregnant dog, disorientation in new form (dice penalty dependent upon degree of glitch). I always figure abused magic will end up abusing you in the end.

[odinson]

let him shapechange into a dog. first thing the opposing mage does is use his counterspelling skill to dispel the sustained shapechange spell and then the sec guard shoots him once with a pistol. with all 1's for physical attributes and because armour and clothing doesn't change he would be naked, so 1 reaction to dodge, then 1 body to soak damage. seems like he's a dead mage if you ask me.


I wonder when there's gonna be a metamagic technique that alows counter-counterspelling.

[Dayhawk]

You know the counter-spelling thing is a good point.

Isn't there a spell which provides a magical armor like force?

My guess is that anyone with the ability to see aura's would know he is a mage yes?

I better have a good talk with him, last thing I need to deal with is his character dying after an hour into game play.

[Leehouse]

Also since equipment doesn't change forms wouldn't his spellcasting focus/any equipment be useless to him? Meaning he'd have to sustain the spell himself and thus take a -2 penalty on every other test. That's just personally how I'd handle it unless he were carrying around his sustaining focus in his mouth as a dog, and then in all likelihood even as a dog he is going to get shot have no armor and get5 killed rather easily.

I mean in a world where corp sec guards are trained to deal with mages first you'd think they'd kill any animal they see breaking into the facility, especially those that are dragging a random item.

[Quix]

Has there been any requirement as to what a focus looks like in 4th ed? If not then his sustaining focus could simply be a dog collar. Doesn't solve what the sec. mage is going to do to him though. But would make it possible for him to carry it without being obvious.

[Shadow]

Really I mean the dog thing isn't going to get him killed so much as the 1's in physical stats.

Colt Manhunter (reg Ammo) 5P -1
Avg Sec Guard 8 Dice pool.
Avg Successes 3.

Mage rolls reaction to dodge, 4 dice. Gets 1 success. Now he must suck a 7P.

Second Shot. 5p -1, 8 Dice, 3 Successes.

Mage rolls to dodge, 2 dice, no successes (-2 for second dodge). Now he has to soak a 8p. Wich he can't do with 5 dice. So say he abosrbed 5P last time, and 6P this time, that puts him at 11P, which is way more than his 1 body gives him. So yeah, sorry he's dead.

[Demerzel]

The focus won't transform, but you could probably make some sort of assumption as to what would be necessary to keep it connected. Some sort of flexable collar would be a good example. You don't want to be too restrictive however, as what would happen if you choose to become a bear instead of a dog and then you're either choking or just broke your focus.

You could have a small pill shaped focus that you just swallow, and every time you pass it swallow it again... A good munchkin will find many ways to get around that problem... Sew it into your skin perhaps...

[Demerzel]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Nocturne]

[Cheops]

In my experience with the Shapechange spell it is good for style or for specialized tasks (player turned into a sparrow to get away from vamps in OtR or player who turned into cat to check out a safehouse) but for constant use it usually results in a rapidly dead mage.

[Demerzel]