Dragonspeech Options

[Req]

So I'm well aware that dragons don't talk per se, but do that whole mind-to-mind thing that can't get recorded. Hence their translators. My question though is - does this extend to dragons in human form as well? I was under the impression that dragons couldn't speak because they were lacking the physiological apparatus to do so - no vocal cords, etc - and a shapechanged dragon ought to have those...

Thoughts? Canon?

-Req

[Syndyne]

Dragons can speak just fine in human form, however they generally like remain in their natural form unless there is a good reason for them to shapechange.

[CoalHeart]

Dragons don't 'speak' while in human form. They -always- use mind to mind talking. Though there's question if they can use a tranducer connected to a skull web for decking. (I think there was something like that)

[BitBasher]

[Senchae]

Also, Lofwyr talks normally in Worlds Without End- Aina doesn't recognize him at first, and she sure would have had he spoken with her with mindspeech.

[Talia Invierno]

Several novels (ie. The Forever Drug, Crossroad) suggest that dragons do use the mind-to-mind communication regularly while in human form. Since physical speech is something learned, they might not be able to do it without casting a spell (I think there was a Steal Skill spell?).

[Req]

[Ed_209a]

[Talia Invierno]

There are many ways to mimic speech, especially through magic. Maybe it's the equivalent of a quickened spell.

Then again, most dragons have lived a long time. What's to say at least a few of those which actually bothered to interact with the short-lived races (beyond ruling/eating) didn't just learn how to talk?

[Kanada Ten]

[252]

I'm glad you guys cleared this up. I was reading Year of the Comet the other day. A very nice book, I guess I shouldn't have taken that sojourn away from the game just because of the change of hands. Anyways Ghostwalker was at the meeting that was recorded for Shadowlanders, and he was talking. This confused me, but I started to think he is in human form so he wouldn't be limited. Still I wasn't sure. With all of your other proof I feel a lot more sure of my answer now.

[Syndyne]

[Abstruse]

A physical illusion spell would work because even if the person on the other end of the phone is in space or on Pluto...as long as the camera and audio pickup is within the range of the spell, it picks up the effects and transmits them. Otherwise, the Trid Phantasm spell wouldn't work on trid because the guy watching the show in Tacoma a few miles from the studio in Downtown would be out of the radius. Same for the security guard on the other side of the compound from the camera watching the runner using Improved Invisibility.

The Abstruse One

[locomotiveman]

In "House of the Sun" a dragon (Lung?) speaks to the protaginist in both human and natural form via telecom.

[SCLariat]

In the Earthdawn "Dragons" sourcebook (available for free to download at various places on the internet), the great dragon Vasdenjas explains that dragonspeech is the natural form of communication for dragons, but that dragons can use human-style speach while shapechanged. Vasdenjas also explained that dragonspeech is much more efficient and flexible than human speech, enabling the dragon to impart or receive part of the experience, and not simply communicate information.

[leemur]

[leemur]

[Kanada Ten]

Dragons cannot assume any shape they want as an innate unsustained power, only metahuman (name-giver) form. They can use a spell to shapechange into anything they want -but they can use a spell to speak, too. The latter being easier on the drain and target numbers.

[Talia Invierno]

The only hesitation I'd have is that physical speaking is a specific method of utilising language, and in humans there's a very short developmental window open during which a child can properly acquire it. If the child hasn't learned to speak by the time they're an adolescent, they're not going to learn.

However, we don't have any appropriate RL comparisons of children growing up with one form of communication and then learning to communicate completely differently. (I don't mean just learning another language!) The closest we come is with ASL and other deaf methods of communication, later translated into physical speech - and I'd argue it's not a good parallel.

Still, they're dragons, and it's Shadowrun. It's the GM's call, based upon what's appropriate for the individual campaign. If nothing else, it's magic :D

[White Knight]

This was covered in Dragons of the Sixth World (shockingly enough :) ) The most relevant bit is this section of shadowtalk:

[Wireknight]

I don't see why this argument is going on so long. Dragons who can assume human form, via spell(all non-Greats, some young Greats) or via innate ability(most Greats), have all the necessary vocal apparati to speak. It states that Dragons always know at least one human language, but usually know several. So long as the dragon knows the language and is in human form, they can speak it.

No sustained spells, no quickened spells, no "Speak English" focus or spell. Human vocal cords, knowledge of language, that's all that's needed. If you want to argue that the dragon can't understand how to use human organs to produce verbal speech, that's fine, but you're also by subcontext indicating that magicians who use the Critter Form spell to transform into a non-primate would flail around ineffectually, since their altered physiology would be impossible to control.

Just like how boosted speed type effects would probably destroy one's muscles if used to their full advantage in a purely physical situation, but don't, this effect also takes care of itself. Unless you want to create several dozen "helper" effects to achieve each and every supernatural ability and its nonspoken consequences, it's best to assume that these helpers are just there, that the ability takes care of itself with respect to things like controlling the new form, or granting immunity to muscle strain inherent taking advantage of adept speed boosts or the critter power of Movement.

[Adarael]

[Talia Invierno]

[Lindt]