 Culutred Bioware at Char Creation, Is it Allowed? |
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 Nov 9 2003, 07:04 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600  |
My group is currently wondering if Cultured Bioware is not allowed at character creation. A couple of us seem to think it isn't, but after cracking the books I can't find anywhere that prohibited. Are we crazy? If it is disallowed, I need a book and page number.
Thanks in advance. |
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Nov 9 2003, 07:06 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
As i understand it, it's allowed unless your using the FAQ's in which case it's not.
But i could be wrong |
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Nov 9 2003, 07:08 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
The FAQs even come out and say that it's totally the GMs decision and that he didn't see the harm in it himself as long as the Availability rules aren't compromised, but "officially" because cultured bioware needs a beta clinic to install the implants, its not permitted.
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Nov 9 2003, 07:21 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Yeah, the FAQ said if you need a ruling (Ie: were to uncreative to make a decision yourself) that since you need a Beta Clinic implant it, you couldn't get Cultred Bioware.
Problem with their ruling is that NOWHERE does it say you can't have a Beta Clinc at character creation, just no Beta Cyberware. ;) So, just as easily as someone could have gotten their Basic or Alpha grade Cyber done in a Beta Clinic (I've seen it in background stories), you could have gotten Cultured done there too. Sphynx |
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Nov 9 2003, 07:46 PM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You're crazy. There are no rules against cultured bioware at chargen.
~J |
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Nov 9 2003, 08:24 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
I personally allow it as an edge: "Connected Background (5 pts)." There's also a version of this edge that allows betaware, but they're two separate things. [/slightlyontopic]
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Nov 9 2003, 08:39 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
There are suggested availability caps in character creation that might make certain weapons, cyberware implants, and bioware implants hard to acquire, BUT they're always prefaced with comments to the effect of, "But whatever the GM decides is the final word (until such time as the players beat him into making a different decision.") |
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Nov 9 2003, 09:10 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Rhode Island Member No.: 5,588 |
I don't appreciate that implication, Sphynx. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I think you are overlooking the better reasons why there are FAQs to give GMs these extra rules. Rather than catagorizing GMs looking for official responses as being weak-willed or uncreative (as it often seems), it could be that the only thing which will quiet your players is something official; if it isn't from the game makers, it's interpeted as you versus them, you are holding them back and you don't want them to have fun. It boils down to this: If the GM agrees with an official rule, then there is no discussion. If it's just his descion, but there is no official limitation or allowance, some will gripe about it to no end. If a GM dislikes a ruling, he can change it, but some will gripe about it to no end. A good example of this is V:TM. They have to tell you what can be ghouled, what can become a wraith, what can become a vampire, what can practice magic, etc etc. Why make official rulings? Because whiny powergamers will not listen to a GM's reasoning alone. Why can't I have a 2nd Generation Dhampir/True Brujah/Abomination/War Ghoul/Blackhand Member weilding True Faith, True Magic, and Daimonion? Without a ruling, anyone dumb and munchie enough to suggest this is going to be FAR too limited to understand things like game balance and challenge. With the rulings, they can just say, "No, a vampire can't have Daimonion and True Faith at the same time," and be done with it. It's not as bad in SR, but it can get bad. And, considering how amazingly badassed you can be without nano, beta, cultured, and delta, it's not going to crimp your style. Therefore, the 'official' rules are there for the benefit of those who need to end arguments about what you can do and what you can't. There are plenty of arguments of what you can and can't do which aren't (and probably can't be) covered anyway. (No damn Albino Gnomes with +willpower!) Besides, It's not like having the official rules is going to harm your game, if you want more power. You don't HAVE to play by any of the rules. You want cybermancy, adept powers, 4 shamanic initiation grades, and 5 otaku submersion grades? It's your damn game. |
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Nov 9 2003, 10:07 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 348 Joined: 20-June 03 Member No.: 4,782 |
Heh. Too bad the State-of-the-Art Model edge has long been eliminated (pg. 34 SC first edition.) For 6 points you can start out with access to Deltaware, cultured bioware, and unlimited availability. Talk about munchkinism to the max. :cyber: FYI: Delta, now a subsidary of Aztechnology, makes top-quality chrome cyberware, and still pumps out new lines of stylish faucets. :D Delta "Buy it for looks. Buy it for a better life." |
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Nov 9 2003, 10:21 PM
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#10
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Which is why I think everybody should play SR2 occasionally. It gets the full munchkin out of them enough that it doesn't appear every other run. ;p
SOTA6 and a Cyberzombie Troll, baby! :D |
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Nov 10 2003, 12:21 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
At least it's not a vampiric gnome polymorphed into a troll cyberzombie. Someone actually had to gall to ask if they could, and, after beating them, I concluded they weren't joking.
This post has been edited by Diesel: Nov 10 2003, 12:22 AM |
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Nov 10 2003, 12:22 AM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
A nitpick. You don't necessarily need a Beta clinic to provide cultured bioware. You need the "equivalent of a beta-clinic" to install them. That means high tech, but a clinic which can install cultured bioware can't necessarily install Beta grade cyberware, and vice versa.
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Nov 10 2003, 03:02 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
...which is why they're two seperate edges.
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Nov 10 2003, 03:04 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
Uhh, "the equivalent of a beta-clinic," by all definitions, means that they *can* install beta grade cyberware. Else they wouldn't be equivalent to a beta-clinic. |
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Nov 10 2003, 03:41 AM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
No... "equivalent of a beta-clinic" is not the same as "beta clinic". It indicates that the tech levels are on par.
The gear used in each type of surgery is different, as can be seen on the Surgical Costs Table on page 151 of Man and Machine. Beta-equipped gear use and Cultured-equipped gear use are seperate entries with different cost multipliers. It stands to reason that if the gear is different, that a facility that can do one isn't necessarily equipped with the gear to perform the other. |
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Nov 10 2003, 03:50 AM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,769 |
By definition, the phrase "equivalent of a beta-clinic" means that it can do everything a beta-clinic can do. Which includes, again by definition, the implantation of betaware. Because it is the equivalence of a beta-clinic.
In context, the phrase "equivalent of a beta-clinic" means that it's a beta-clinic with the capability to work on cultured bioware -- or as you pointed out, a beta-clinic that has "cultured-equipped gear." If they had their own clinics, they would be called "cultured bioware clinics" or some other technobabble game-term name. |
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Nov 10 2003, 07:20 AM
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#17
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
"If you want an official call"... That's the quote after it tells you the only official ruling is a limited availability. To me, that's the polite way of saying that "If you lack whatever it takes to make a decision without having your hand held". The FAQ is not to give GM's extra rules, that's the Eratta. FAQ is to give you answers that weren't addressed. Asking if Bioware (or Cultured Bioware) is allowed is like asking if you're allowed to start with a gun. The answer was already given page 60 of the SR3 book. You may start with any gear that is less than or equal to Rating 6 and less than or equal to Availability 8, with GM approval with the only known Amendment being on page 45 of M&M where it says "Betaware" is unavailable to starting characters (Interesting side not: Doesn't say anything about Deltaware ;)). So anyhows, sorry if you take offense to it, but it's a fact. "If you want an official call" is the closest way you can get to staying polite and stating that you're being hand-held. :P Sphynx |
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Nov 10 2003, 03:48 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
So that restriction doesn't exist in the books, and we're crazy. I can live with that.
Personally, with the Availability rules already in place to determine what a character can start with, I don't see any need to enforce anything beyond that. If they didn't want cultured bioware available at character creation, they should have made the minimum Availability of each piece 9. Same with beta. |
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Nov 10 2003, 04:02 PM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Indeed. If it's the clinic itself that's hard to find (as the FAQ suggested ruling implies) there shouldn't be individual pieces of betaware easier to find and install than the stuff in general.
With the possible exception, of course, of datajacks. Hell, I could imagine a corp hospital having very little implantation ability, but a specialized operating theatre equipped to implant delta-grade datajacks. ~J |
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Nov 10 2003, 10:14 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Rhode Island Member No.: 5,588 |
~Warning: The following is a rant from stressed-out jerk: Not to be taken seriously or on an empty stomach.~ - - - - - - Wow, I didn't think you were actually making a endeavor to be rude, but the internet has suprised me again. I will try to enlighten you, but since this is just a message board, I can't apply the hearty smack your thick head requires. You say it doesn't mention Deltaware explicitly. It also doesn't explicitly mention if MPCP is included in the "Rating 6" limitation, or if Nanoware is available, or if the Retinal Duplication is changeable or one-time, or various other little questions you can conjur. (All those are AFAIK, but I'm not sure positive about these, since I might have just plain overlooked a few.) So that implies I can get Deltaware and whatever else isn't explicitly restricted in the book. (Hey, this helicopter has no availability rating! I'll take 3!) Then again, is the book some kind of Holy Document, and the only person allowed to make changes is the GM (AKA God)? No, because some things in the books make no sense. Either in the game balance sense or the backstory sense, some things just don't work. Being able to get Cultured Bioware but not Beta or Nano is not logical; they all require the same sort of SOTA connections to get your grubby mitts on them. So, it raises a conflict. "How come he can get Trauma Dampener, but I can't get a Oxy-Rush treatment?" There aren't many good answers to that. So does this mean that people who want the game to make sense, and not have to be alone in explaining the ludicrousness to their players, are lemmings following the rules off a cliff? No. If that were so, following any set of rules with cohesion would mean you're "holding the hand" of the game system. (Why are you rolling initiative? Just put the dice down as 6s. And why are we even playing the game? Let's just win already! You want the game system to tell you everything? I'm not gonna hold Fanpro's hand as I play this so-called 'Game' for 'fun and levity.') And you are dead wrong about what you call the FAQ and what you call Eratta(sic). I'm about to insult everyone's intellegence by defining these words, but it appears necessary. ------- Errata (plural of Erratum) An error in printing or writing, especially such an error noted in a list of corrections and bound into a book. FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions. Such as "Why does this rule make no sense?" or "These two rules don't work together." or "Can these two things be used together? Looks like it can." ------- Of course, if something was left out, then the Errata includes a new rule, but it's not handing out brand new rules, just forgotten ones. Otherwise, it's fixing mispellings, ommissions, and unclear sentences. (like the "Chemistry" in M+M). The FAQ is handing out new rules, which, like every rule, is taken on the liberty that they don't have to use it. (Don't like Spell Drain? Dump it! Think bullets are evil? Ban guns! Dislike Trolls? They don't exist!) Why does the FAQ exist? Because some things make no sense or are unclear. (I.E. Is a clear object also clear on the astral plane?) The Cultured Bioware question is one of those questions. Hence, they give us an answer to how it would work logically. So, if you prefer to wade through unintellegible rules conflicts without benevolent creators willing to help iron them out, go play any game in it's first edition (I.E. Godlike) After a few games of a new game, I dare you to tell me that it isn't a good thing that people are willing to fix the crap that makes no sense. Why? I don't want/need/have to have to explain to my players why they can't get a Smart-Link with Vision Mag 3, or why a shot to the face doesn't BOTH add to the Damage Code and ignore Armor, or why Sammy can get his Cereberal Booster, but a Nano-Tattoo is too broken. I shouldn't have to explain this crap that doesn't make sense; it's a game for fun, not for causing the GM to have an embolism. - - - - - - Ahhh... a rant. Feels good after writing about Plato for 2 hours. - - - - - - And, in response to what Mercer says: Some would say that if they were all avail 9, that'd mean that after finding a Beta Clinic that would let you in, you'd need to hit a 9 on the Ettitqute check to get it. That's not necesarily a good idea; a beta/bio clinic would speciallize in that sort of stuff, and are moderately likely to have it hangin around, so it's not necessarily going to be all arbitrarily avail 9 even after finding the guys who do it. Then again, I would increase those availbilities anyway. Some of them are absurdly low. Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2 is availability 6? How about NO. |
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Nov 10 2003, 10:58 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
How about yes.
It makes sense if you look at it some ways. A lot of bioware is too new to be properly regulated. ~J, feeling snarky. |
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Nov 10 2003, 11:27 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
There's nothing wrong with the availabilities of cultured bioware. Basicly, it's just a piece of vat grown tissue made from your cells and designed to do something specific. The implantation is the hard part, after all.
To actually aquire synaptic accel 2, in game, you need to: Locate a clinic (Base TN 10, 1 month) Convince someone to do the work (base TN 12) Have a medical profile built (avg 120 :nuyen:, avg 16 hrs) Have a surgical plan made (avg 120 hrs, 72,000 :nuyen:) Have the accelerator grown (avg 5 weeks, 400,000 :nuyen: base) Undergo surgery (avg 1200 :nuyen:) Heal from an M wound It's easy to see why a lot of people just say "get it at character generation". Three solid months of game time and almost half a million nuyen is a pretty inflated price, when you consider what you can get in cyberware for the same price. |
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Nov 11 2003, 07:38 AM
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#23
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
First off, I'm sorry you thought I was being rude, no rudeness was intended, and no worries, I won't respond to your flame with flames. :) Now to address a few issues. Deltaware: Availability +9. That's why it doesn't say you don't get to start with it, the Availability says it. :P Nanites: Since the Hive and Facilitator are Availability 10 and 18, you can start with a couple, but they wouldn't last long at all. Eratta: Canon errors in the book. FAQ: Suggestions for those lacking the creativity/willingness to answer their own questions. Cultured Bioware: Allowed at Char Gen. Hope that answered everything. ;) Sphynx |
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Nov 11 2003, 09:30 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
FAQ is a bit more than you say Sphynx. Its what the designers of the game would rule if they were GMing your group. Its how the people who made the rule interpret the grey area. Thus its a good indicator of how it was intended, and is also objective in that its free of any specific issues in your group. The FAQ is like an unclouded rules barometer.
That said theres no reason that your own rulings arent as important etc, or that people should blindly follow the FAQ rather than consider their own groups position and situation, but its not just for mindless gamers either. Personally, our group finds the game more enjoyable following that particular FAQ and sticking to non-cultured bioware at chargen. We find it cuts down on the powergaming in some areas, as well as gives sammies somewhere to expand with desired mods rather than starting off at .01 essence and full bio-index with a gun skill of 8 dice after specialization and enhanced articualtion (which made sammies unwanted due to lack of fun developing a character, or the lack of fun playing an intentionally weak character so that there was room to advance; simply forcing them to leave room for future things while doing the same to everyone so as to level the playing field opened sams back up for us). Your milage may/will vary. |
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Nov 11 2003, 09:46 AM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I'm confused.... Sammies lack advancement areas? So, our Cobra character had nowhere to put his232 karma, or ways to advance post character creation? Or is it that he shouldn't have been able to upgrade his starting ReactionEnhancers-4(Basic) to ReactionEnhancers-6(Alpha)?
Seriously... how can -anyone- suggest that you can, at character creation, so finely tune a character that he has nowhere to advance? You know -why- you should let characters start with Cultured Bio? Because of the listed reasons for not allowing it. Campaign level games don't allow for months of recovery time to go installing this stuff, or you end up House Ruling 1-week surgical times. Because games don't usually (at least where I've played) get you the millions of nuyen that make it possible for some of the Cultured upgrades. Lastly, if you want to treat the FAQ as Canon (after all, I think our House Interpretations coincide at about 99% with FAQ), the Canon answer according to the FAQ is "to sticking to the Availability rule". not "no cultured allowed". Especially since Canon never states that you couldn't have had your Basic or Alpha ware implanted at a Beta Clinic. Sphynx |
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