My group is currently wondering if Cultured Bioware is not allowed at character creation. A couple of us seem to think it isn't, but after cracking the books I can't find anywhere that prohibited. Are we crazy? If it is disallowed, I need a book and page number.
Thanks in advance.
Full Version: Culutred Bioware at Char Creation
As i understand it, it's allowed unless your using the FAQ's in which case it's not.
But i could be wrong
But i could be wrong
The FAQs even come out and say that it's totally the GMs decision and that he didn't see the harm in it himself as long as the Availability rules aren't compromised, but "officially" because cultured bioware needs a beta clinic to install the implants, its not permitted.
Yeah, the FAQ said if you need a ruling (Ie: were to uncreative to make a decision yourself) that since you need a Beta Clinic implant it, you couldn't get Cultred Bioware.
Problem with their ruling is that NOWHERE does it say you can't have a Beta Clinc at character creation, just no Beta Cyberware.
So, just as easily as someone could have gotten their Basic or Alpha grade Cyber done in a Beta Clinic (I've seen it in background stories), you could have gotten Cultured done there too.
Sphynx
Problem with their ruling is that NOWHERE does it say you can't have a Beta Clinc at character creation, just no Beta Cyberware.
So, just as easily as someone could have gotten their Basic or Alpha grade Cyber done in a Beta Clinic (I've seen it in background stories), you could have gotten Cultured done there too.Sphynx
You're crazy. There are no rules against cultured bioware at chargen.
~J
~J
I personally allow it as an edge: "Connected Background (5 pts)." There's also a version of this edge that allows betaware, but they're two separate things. [/slightlyontopic]
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| My group is currently wondering if Cultured Bioware is not allowed at character creation. A couple of us seem to think it isn't, but after cracking the books I can't find anywhere that prohibited. Are we crazy? If it is disallowed, I need a book and page number. Thanks in advance. |
There are suggested availability caps in character creation that might make certain weapons, cyberware implants, and bioware implants hard to acquire, BUT they're always prefaced with comments to the effect of, "But whatever the GM decides is the final word (until such time as the players beat him into making a different decision.")
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Yeah, the FAQ said if you need a ruling (Ie: were to uncreative to make a decision yourself) that since you need a Beta Clinic implant it, you couldn't get Cultred Bioware. |
I don't appreciate that implication, Sphynx. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I think you are overlooking the better reasons why there are FAQs to give GMs these extra rules.
Rather than catagorizing GMs looking for official responses as being weak-willed or uncreative (as it often seems), it could be that the only thing which will quiet your players is something official; if it isn't from the game makers, it's interpeted as you versus them, you are holding them back and you don't want them to have fun.
It boils down to this: If the GM agrees with an official rule, then there is no discussion. If it's just his descion, but there is no official limitation or allowance, some will gripe about it to no end. If a GM dislikes a ruling, he can change it, but some will gripe about it to no end.
A good example of this is V:TM. They have to tell you what can be ghouled, what can become a wraith, what can become a vampire, what can practice magic, etc etc. Why make official rulings? Because whiny powergamers will not listen to a GM's reasoning alone. Why can't I have a 2nd Generation Dhampir/True Brujah/Abomination/War Ghoul/Blackhand Member weilding True Faith, True Magic, and Daimonion? Without a ruling, anyone dumb and munchie enough to suggest this is going to be FAR too limited to understand things like game balance and challenge. With the rulings, they can just say, "No, a vampire can't have Daimonion and True Faith at the same time," and be done with it.
It's not as bad in SR, but it can get bad. And, considering how amazingly badassed you can be without nano, beta, cultured, and delta, it's not going to crimp your style.
Therefore, the 'official' rules are there for the benefit of those who need to end arguments about what you can do and what you can't. There are plenty of arguments of what you can and can't do which aren't (and probably can't be) covered anyway. (No damn Albino Gnomes with +willpower!)
Besides, It's not like having the official rules is going to harm your game, if you want more power. You don't HAVE to play by any of the rules. You want cybermancy, adept powers, 4 shamanic initiation grades, and 5 otaku submersion grades? It's your damn game.
| QUOTE (GunnerJ @ Nov 9 2003, 04:24 PM) |
| I personally allow it as an edge: "Connected Background (5 pts)." There's also a version of this edge that allows betaware, but they're two separate things. [/slightlyontopic] |
Heh. Too bad the State-of-the-Art Model edge has long been eliminated (pg. 34 SC first edition.) For 6 points you can start out with access to Deltaware, cultured bioware, and unlimited availability. Talk about munchkinism to the max.
FYI: Delta, now a subsidary of Aztechnology, makes top-quality chrome cyberware, and still pumps out new lines of stylish faucets.
Delta
"Buy it for looks. Buy it for a better life."
Which is why I think everybody should play SR2 occasionally. It gets the full munchkin out of them enough that it doesn't appear every other run. ;p
SOTA6 and a Cyberzombie Troll, baby!
SOTA6 and a Cyberzombie Troll, baby!
At least it's not a vampiric gnome polymorphed into a troll cyberzombie. Someone actually had to gall to ask if they could, and, after beating them, I concluded they weren't joking.
A nitpick. You don't necessarily need a Beta clinic to provide cultured bioware. You need the "equivalent of a beta-clinic" to install them. That means high tech, but a clinic which can install cultured bioware can't necessarily install Beta grade cyberware, and vice versa.
...which is why they're two seperate edges.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| A nitpick. You don't necessarily need a Beta clinic to provide cultured bioware. You need the "equivalent of a beta-clinic" to install them. That means high tech, but a clinic which can install cultured bioware can't necessarily install Beta grade cyberware, and vice versa. |
Uhh, "the equivalent of a beta-clinic," by all definitions, means that they *can* install beta grade cyberware. Else they wouldn't be equivalent to a beta-clinic.
No... "equivalent of a beta-clinic" is not the same as "beta clinic". It indicates that the tech levels are on par.
The gear used in each type of surgery is different, as can be seen on the Surgical Costs Table on page 151 of Man and Machine. Beta-equipped gear use and Cultured-equipped gear use are seperate entries with different cost multipliers. It stands to reason that if the gear is different, that a facility that can do one isn't necessarily equipped with the gear to perform the other.
The gear used in each type of surgery is different, as can be seen on the Surgical Costs Table on page 151 of Man and Machine. Beta-equipped gear use and Cultured-equipped gear use are seperate entries with different cost multipliers. It stands to reason that if the gear is different, that a facility that can do one isn't necessarily equipped with the gear to perform the other.
By definition, the phrase "equivalent of a beta-clinic" means that it can do everything a beta-clinic can do. Which includes, again by definition, the implantation of betaware. Because it is the equivalence of a beta-clinic.
In context, the phrase "equivalent of a beta-clinic" means that it's a beta-clinic with the capability to work on cultured bioware -- or as you pointed out, a beta-clinic that has "cultured-equipped gear."
If they had their own clinics, they would be called "cultured bioware clinics" or some other technobabble game-term name.
In context, the phrase "equivalent of a beta-clinic" means that it's a beta-clinic with the capability to work on cultured bioware -- or as you pointed out, a beta-clinic that has "cultured-equipped gear."
If they had their own clinics, they would be called "cultured bioware clinics" or some other technobabble game-term name.
| QUOTE (Morphling The Pretender) |
| I don't appreciate that implication, Sphynx. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I think you are overlooking the better reasons why there are FAQs to give GMs these extra rules. |
"If you want an official call"... That's the quote after it tells you the only official ruling is a limited availability. To me, that's the polite way of saying that "If you lack whatever it takes to make a decision without having your hand held".
The FAQ is not to give GM's extra rules, that's the Eratta. FAQ is to give you answers that weren't addressed. Asking if Bioware (or Cultured Bioware) is allowed is like asking if you're allowed to start with a gun. The answer was already given page 60 of the SR3 book. You may start with any gear that is less than or equal to Rating 6 and less than or equal to Availability 8, with GM approval with the only known Amendment being on page 45 of M&M where it says "Betaware" is unavailable to starting characters (Interesting side not: Doesn't say anything about Deltaware
). So anyhows, sorry if you take offense to it, but it's a fact. "If you want an official call" is the closest way you can get to staying polite and stating that you're being hand-held.
Sphynx
So that restriction doesn't exist in the books, and we're crazy. I can live with that.
Personally, with the Availability rules already in place to determine what a character can start with, I don't see any need to enforce anything beyond that. If they didn't want cultured bioware available at character creation, they should have made the minimum Availability of each piece 9. Same with beta.
Personally, with the Availability rules already in place to determine what a character can start with, I don't see any need to enforce anything beyond that. If they didn't want cultured bioware available at character creation, they should have made the minimum Availability of each piece 9. Same with beta.
Indeed. If it's the clinic itself that's hard to find (as the FAQ suggested ruling implies) there shouldn't be individual pieces of betaware easier to find and install than the stuff in general.
With the possible exception, of course, of datajacks. Hell, I could imagine a corp hospital having very little implantation ability, but a specialized operating theatre equipped to implant delta-grade datajacks.
~J
With the possible exception, of course, of datajacks. Hell, I could imagine a corp hospital having very little implantation ability, but a specialized operating theatre equipped to implant delta-grade datajacks.
~J
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| <Snipped for space> So anyhows, sorry if you take offense to it, but it's a fact. "If you want an official call" is the closest way you can get to staying polite and stating that you're being hand-held. |
~Warning: The following is a rant from stressed-out jerk: Not to be taken seriously or on an empty stomach.~
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Wow, I didn't think you were actually making a endeavor to be rude, but the internet has suprised me again. I will try to enlighten you, but since this is just a message board, I can't apply the hearty smack your thick head requires.
You say it doesn't mention Deltaware explicitly. It also doesn't explicitly mention if MPCP is included in the "Rating 6" limitation, or if Nanoware is available, or if the Retinal Duplication is changeable or one-time, or various other little questions you can conjur. (All those are AFAIK, but I'm not sure positive about these, since I might have just plain overlooked a few.)
So that implies I can get Deltaware and whatever else isn't explicitly restricted in the book. (Hey, this helicopter has no availability rating! I'll take 3!)
Then again, is the book some kind of Holy Document, and the only person allowed to make changes is the GM (AKA God)? No, because some things in the books make no sense. Either in the game balance sense or the backstory sense, some things just don't work. Being able to get Cultured Bioware but not Beta or Nano is not logical; they all require the same sort of SOTA connections to get your grubby mitts on them. So, it raises a conflict. "How come he can get Trauma Dampener, but I can't get a Oxy-Rush treatment?" There aren't many good answers to that.
So does this mean that people who want the game to make sense, and not have to be alone in explaining the ludicrousness to their players, are lemmings following the rules off a cliff? No. If that were so, following any set of rules with cohesion would mean you're "holding the hand" of the game system. (Why are you rolling initiative? Just put the dice down as 6s. And why are we even playing the game? Let's just win already! You want the game system to tell you everything? I'm not gonna hold Fanpro's hand as I play this so-called 'Game' for 'fun and levity.')
And you are dead wrong about what you call the FAQ and what you call Eratta(sic). I'm about to insult everyone's intellegence by defining these words, but it appears necessary.
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Errata (plural of Erratum)
An error in printing or writing, especially such an error noted in a list of corrections and bound into a book.
FAQ: Frequently Asked Questions. Such as "Why does this rule make no sense?" or "These two rules don't work together." or "Can these two things be used together? Looks like it can."
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Of course, if something was left out, then the Errata includes a new rule, but it's not handing out brand new rules, just forgotten ones. Otherwise, it's fixing mispellings, ommissions, and unclear sentences. (like the "Chemistry" in M+M).
The FAQ is handing out new rules, which, like every rule, is taken on the liberty that they don't have to use it. (Don't like Spell Drain? Dump it! Think bullets are evil? Ban guns! Dislike Trolls? They don't exist!)
Why does the FAQ exist? Because some things make no sense or are unclear. (I.E. Is a clear object also clear on the astral plane?) The Cultured Bioware question is one of those questions. Hence, they give us an answer to how it would work logically.
So, if you prefer to wade through unintellegible rules conflicts without benevolent creators willing to help iron them out, go play any game in it's first edition (I.E. Godlike) After a few games of a new game, I dare you to tell me that it isn't a good thing that people are willing to fix the crap that makes no sense.
Why? I don't want/need/have to have to explain to my players why they can't get a Smart-Link with Vision Mag 3, or why a shot to the face doesn't BOTH add to the Damage Code and ignore Armor, or why Sammy can get his Cereberal Booster, but a Nano-Tattoo is too broken. I shouldn't have to explain this crap that doesn't make sense; it's a game for fun, not for causing the GM to have an embolism.
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Ahhh... a rant. Feels good after writing about Plato for 2 hours.
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And, in response to what Mercer says:
Some would say that if they were all avail 9, that'd mean that after finding a Beta Clinic that would let you in, you'd need to hit a 9 on the Ettitqute check to get it. That's not necesarily a good idea; a beta/bio clinic would speciallize in that sort of stuff, and are moderately likely to have it hangin around, so it's not necessarily going to be all arbitrarily avail 9 even after finding the guys who do it.
Then again, I would increase those availbilities anyway. Some of them are absurdly low. Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2 is availability 6? How about NO.
How about yes.
It makes sense if you look at it some ways. A lot of bioware is too new to be properly regulated.
~J, feeling snarky.
It makes sense if you look at it some ways. A lot of bioware is too new to be properly regulated.
~J, feeling snarky.
There's nothing wrong with the availabilities of cultured bioware. Basicly, it's just a piece of vat grown tissue made from your cells and designed to do something specific. The implantation is the hard part, after all.
To actually aquire synaptic accel 2, in game, you need to:
Locate a clinic (Base TN 10, 1 month)
Convince someone to do the work (base TN 12)
Have a medical profile built (avg 120
, avg 16 hrs)
Have a surgical plan made (avg 120 hrs, 72,000)
Have the accelerator grown (avg 5 weeks, 400,000 base)
Undergo surgery (avg 1200)
Heal from an M wound
It's easy to see why a lot of people just say "get it at character generation". Three solid months of game time and almost half a million nuyen is a pretty inflated price, when you consider what you can get in cyberware for the same price.
To actually aquire synaptic accel 2, in game, you need to:
Locate a clinic (Base TN 10, 1 month)
Convince someone to do the work (base TN 12)
Have a medical profile built (avg 120
, avg 16 hrs)Have a surgical plan made (avg 120 hrs, 72,000
)Have the accelerator grown (avg 5 weeks, 400,000
base)Undergo surgery (avg 1200
)Heal from an M wound
It's easy to see why a lot of people just say "get it at character generation". Three solid months of game time and almost half a million nuyen is a pretty inflated price, when you consider what you can get in cyberware for the same price.
| QUOTE (Morphling The Pretender) |
| You say it doesn't mention Deltaware explicitly. It also doesn't explicitly mention if MPCP is included in the "Rating 6" limitation, or if Nanoware is available, or if the Retinal Duplication is changeable or one-time, or various other little questions you can conjur. (All those are AFAIK, but I'm not sure positive about these, since I might have just plain overlooked a few.) |
First off, I'm sorry you thought I was being rude, no rudeness was intended, and no worries, I won't respond to your flame with flames.
Now to address a few issues.
Deltaware: Availability +9. That's why it doesn't say you don't get to start with it, the Availability says it.
Nanites: Since the Hive and Facilitator are Availability 10 and 18, you can start with a couple, but they wouldn't last long at all.
Eratta: Canon errors in the book.
FAQ: Suggestions for those lacking the creativity/willingness to answer their own questions.
Cultured Bioware: Allowed at Char Gen.
Hope that answered everything.
Sphynx
FAQ is a bit more than you say Sphynx. Its what the designers of the game would rule if they were GMing your group. Its how the people who made the rule interpret the grey area. Thus its a good indicator of how it was intended, and is also objective in that its free of any specific issues in your group. The FAQ is like an unclouded rules barometer.
That said theres no reason that your own rulings arent as important etc, or that people should blindly follow the FAQ rather than consider their own groups position and situation, but its not just for mindless gamers either.
Personally, our group finds the game more enjoyable following that particular FAQ and sticking to non-cultured bioware at chargen. We find it cuts down on the powergaming in some areas, as well as gives sammies somewhere to expand with desired mods rather than starting off at .01 essence and full bio-index with a gun skill of 8 dice after specialization and enhanced articualtion (which made sammies unwanted due to lack of fun developing a character, or the lack of fun playing an intentionally weak character so that there was room to advance; simply forcing them to leave room for future things while doing the same to everyone so as to level the playing field opened sams back up for us). Your milage may/will vary.
That said theres no reason that your own rulings arent as important etc, or that people should blindly follow the FAQ rather than consider their own groups position and situation, but its not just for mindless gamers either.
Personally, our group finds the game more enjoyable following that particular FAQ and sticking to non-cultured bioware at chargen. We find it cuts down on the powergaming in some areas, as well as gives sammies somewhere to expand with desired mods rather than starting off at .01 essence and full bio-index with a gun skill of 8 dice after specialization and enhanced articualtion (which made sammies unwanted due to lack of fun developing a character, or the lack of fun playing an intentionally weak character so that there was room to advance; simply forcing them to leave room for future things while doing the same to everyone so as to level the playing field opened sams back up for us). Your milage may/will vary.
I'm confused.... Sammies lack advancement areas? So, our Cobra character had nowhere to put his232 karma, or ways to advance post character creation? Or is it that he shouldn't have been able to upgrade his starting ReactionEnhancers-4(Basic) to ReactionEnhancers-6(Alpha)?
Seriously... how can -anyone- suggest that you can, at character creation, so finely tune a character that he has nowhere to advance?
You know -why- you should let characters start with Cultured Bio? Because of the listed reasons for not allowing it. Campaign level games don't allow for months of recovery time to go installing this stuff, or you end up House Ruling 1-week surgical times. Because games don't usually (at least where I've played) get you the millions of nuyen that make it possible for some of the Cultured upgrades.
Lastly, if you want to treat the FAQ as Canon (after all, I think our House Interpretations coincide at about 99% with FAQ), the Canon answer according to the FAQ is "to sticking to the Availability rule". not "no cultured allowed". Especially since Canon never states that you couldn't have had your Basic or Alpha ware implanted at a Beta Clinic.
Sphynx
Seriously... how can -anyone- suggest that you can, at character creation, so finely tune a character that he has nowhere to advance?
You know -why- you should let characters start with Cultured Bio? Because of the listed reasons for not allowing it. Campaign level games don't allow for months of recovery time to go installing this stuff, or you end up House Ruling 1-week surgical times. Because games don't usually (at least where I've played) get you the millions of nuyen that make it possible for some of the Cultured upgrades.
Lastly, if you want to treat the FAQ as Canon (after all, I think our House Interpretations coincide at about 99% with FAQ), the Canon answer according to the FAQ is "to sticking to the Availability rule". not "no cultured allowed". Especially since Canon never states that you couldn't have had your Basic or Alpha ware implanted at a Beta Clinic.
Sphynx
Well, honestly, there are some pieces of cultured bioware that are simply too powerful for characters to have at creation, or to pick up during play for that matter. I am of course thinking of the Sleep Regulator. I mean, do you people want to portray god-like creatures-- nay, Gods themselves?!?-- that can control exactly when they fall asleep or wake up?
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| I'm confused.... Sammies lack advancement areas? So, our Cobra character had nowhere to put his232 karma, or ways to advance post character creation? Or is it that he shouldn't have been able to upgrade his starting ReactionEnhancers-4(Basic) to ReactionEnhancers-6(Alpha)? Seriously... how can -anyone- suggest that you can, at character creation, so finely tune a character that he has nowhere to advance? You know -why- you should let characters start with Cultured Bio? Because of the listed reasons for not allowing it. Campaign level games don't allow for months of recovery time to go installing this stuff, or you end up House Ruling 1-week surgical times. Because games don't usually (at least where I've played) get you the millions of nuyen that make it possible for some of the Cultured upgrades. Lastly, if you want to treat the FAQ as Canon (after all, I think our House Interpretations coincide at about 99% with FAQ), the Canon answer according to the FAQ is "to sticking to the Availability rule". not "no cultured allowed". Especially since Canon never states that you couldn't have had your Basic or Alpha ware implanted at a Beta Clinic. Sphynx |
I think what Morphling was implying is that with all that tech installed, that a Sammie can't easily advance enhancement wise. In the example you gave, the Cobra would have had to spend 720,000
, and that is not including recovery time, paying off people, etc. That, atleast in my games, is a huge investment, and would take a long while to work up to. But by limiting what is available at character generation, then you allow more possibilites for Sammies to purchase, to give them that sense of advancement. I don't allow Cultured Bioware with starting characters. I am also really leery about allowing normal bioware to starting to characters. The combinations it allows when combined with cyberware are just a little too powerful for my liking.
Perhaps I should have given an example. I didnt mean he "couldnt advance", what I meant was that you can start off with "maxed" gear and extremely high skills, to the point that advancing via gear even a single step is millions of nuyen and the only way to advance skills is to either raise what you have to an even higher level or just cover someone elses area.
(for example) Our teams are typically 5-6 PCs. If the Sam starts off with 0.05 essence and 3.0 bioindex, its going to be extremley expensive to upgrade any implants (requiring several things to be deltawared etc to make room for anything new). And if he starts with combat skills at effective ratings of 6-8, theyre already high enough to do what he needs to do. And if he has backup skills at like 3 or 4 (negotiation, electronics, etc - the good stuff but not his specialty) thats great, but its likley someone else on the team has it higher and is makeing 80% of the corresponding rolls. Which means that in the end, it takes a LONG time to see any appriciable advancement in effectivness in gear, combat, or non-combat areas relative to the rest of the team.
Without posting entire characters thats about the best I can describe it. But thats how Sams pretty much panned out in our group allowing cultured. People stopped making Sams and just started making hybrids that were combat-capable-somethingelses. Not bad just not exactly fun for us.
And yes, I wasnt saying we followed that FAQ, youre correct in its statement. I was just saying that FAQ is more pertinent to me than you made it seem, a source to be considered when making a ruling. But as this example shows not something to be blindly followed, as you agree. You dont have to be mindless to turn to FAQ for guidelines, but do consider your own game when it comes down to it. Thats what I was trying to say.
Hope that is clearer. I agree with your mentailty, just thought you were being a bit hard on the FAQ /grin.
(for example) Our teams are typically 5-6 PCs. If the Sam starts off with 0.05 essence and 3.0 bioindex, its going to be extremley expensive to upgrade any implants (requiring several things to be deltawared etc to make room for anything new). And if he starts with combat skills at effective ratings of 6-8, theyre already high enough to do what he needs to do. And if he has backup skills at like 3 or 4 (negotiation, electronics, etc - the good stuff but not his specialty) thats great, but its likley someone else on the team has it higher and is makeing 80% of the corresponding rolls. Which means that in the end, it takes a LONG time to see any appriciable advancement in effectivness in gear, combat, or non-combat areas relative to the rest of the team.
Without posting entire characters thats about the best I can describe it. But thats how Sams pretty much panned out in our group allowing cultured. People stopped making Sams and just started making hybrids that were combat-capable-somethingelses. Not bad just not exactly fun for us.
And yes, I wasnt saying we followed that FAQ, youre correct in its statement. I was just saying that FAQ is more pertinent to me than you made it seem, a source to be considered when making a ruling. But as this example shows not something to be blindly followed, as you agree. You dont have to be mindless to turn to FAQ for guidelines, but do consider your own game when it comes down to it. Thats what I was trying to say.
Hope that is clearer. I agree with your mentailty, just thought you were being a bit hard on the FAQ /grin.
How are the sams reaching maxed out status? This isn't SR2 where you had 1 skill for firearms, armed combat and unarmed combat. Those 3 skills would need to be replaced with pistols, SMGs, shotguns, rifles, AR, some type of unarmed combat (hopefully one with a few maneuvers, effectively doubling its cost), clubs, whips, polearms/staffs, edged weapons, (some maneuvers that are usable with these)...
Then there is throwing weapons, projectile weapons, demolitions, biotech, launch weapons, stealth, athletics, off-hand skills, B/R for all these skills, kits, shops, and maybe facilities for a bunch of these. And these (with the exception of the unarmed type martial arts) are all in the basic book. Why do they have karma or cash? Are they lazy, unimaginative, ignorant...?
And that doesn't even cover driving anything.
Then there is throwing weapons, projectile weapons, demolitions, biotech, launch weapons, stealth, athletics, off-hand skills, B/R for all these skills, kits, shops, and maybe facilities for a bunch of these. And these (with the exception of the unarmed type martial arts) are all in the basic book. Why do they have karma or cash? Are they lazy, unimaginative, ignorant...?
And that doesn't even cover driving anything.
Like I said unless you want me to post like a half dozen "example" chracters its hard to cover every concievable discrepency, but overall I stand by what I said. At chargen you can easily have brawling 6+1, pistols 5 (your choice 7) +1, and assualt rifles 5 (your choice 7) +1. While not fully maxed out in every skill or situation it covers 90% of what youll need for combat. As to the rest of the skills, Ill repeat that most of the time the Sam isnt responsible for it. The rigger drives, anyone with biotech 4 is enough for first aid street doc gets the rest, stealth 4 or 6 is plenty with things like spells and ruthenium, most of the other combat skills are unneccessary since you can only shoot one gun at a time, etc. By the time the Sam is able to increase any of the secondary-esque skills to a level able to compete with the primary-user its both a) stale for the sam and b) just duplicating another character not really advancing your own into new ground. FOR OUR GROUP disallowing cultured bioware helped counteract this in a varity of ways; both by lowering the starting potential of sams a bit to give them more space to grow, and by making it a bit harder for just anyone to pick up the same 2 or 3 mods and get a big combat advantage. It made a dedicated Sam worth playing again for us. Like not having synaptic accelerator means that to be really fast out of the box you need to go wired, too expensive and large for anyone not interesting in being a sam. Or that you need some +body 'ware rather than using trauma dampener in ever guy. Etc etc .. Again this is an example of where we considered the FAQ standpoint and decided to go with whats best for us, not blindly following it but noting its value.
It's one of the fundamental imbalances in SR. Sammies generally don't need a whole lot of karma to advance (they can always find something to spend it on, of course, but they are generally pretty well suited for their jobs). Instead, sammies need gear upgrades to really "advance". Our group generally doesn't get into games which are long term enough to have come up with a good solution to this, but cultured bioware doesn't at character gen doesn't seem to add to or take away from this problem.
Hitting bio index 3.0 is easy without cultured bioware, afterall (between muscle aug, muscle toner, and enhanced articulation, it's pretty fast, 2 levels of one, 4 levels of the other, and the EA and you're done). Having cultured available doesn't change that character at all.
Hitting bio index 3.0 is easy without cultured bioware, afterall (between muscle aug, muscle toner, and enhanced articulation, it's pretty fast, 2 levels of one, 4 levels of the other, and the EA and you're done). Having cultured available doesn't change that character at all.
Er... leaving biotech to a single character seems to be a STUPID, STUPID thing to do.
Honestly, I'd say even a Mage would end up picking up a level or two, just in case. The ability to patch yourself up at least a little after the rest of your team has been slaughtered is invaluable.
Other than that, duplicating other characers is a good thing. People die all the time, and you don't want that lucky shot to be the difference between a failed run and a successful one.
~J
Honestly, I'd say even a Mage would end up picking up a level or two, just in case. The ability to patch yourself up at least a little after the rest of your team has been slaughtered is invaluable.
Other than that, duplicating other characers is a good thing. People die all the time, and you don't want that lucky shot to be the difference between a failed run and a successful one.
~J
Well the way things work out for us is that disallowing some of the cultured mods makes players think "in advance" and so leave room at chargen to get them. Not only does something like no trauma dampener make body a bit more important (now need 2 successes more every resistance test from one point of view) but it also means they have that much less space for something else if they want to leave space to "grow into". However, the same could be said of things with availabilty over 8, with planning ahead for it. Its just been our experience that there are few mods worth having over that limit, while theres several good cultured ones.
And yes, one guy with biotech isnt smart, but when going from skill 0 to 3 is but 10 karma, and savior advanced medkits have biotech at 5 for some purposes, and the test is written that so you only need 1 success to first aid, its rarely an issue. The same can be said of most backup coverage for our games, death is rather rare and its not unusual to have several folks start with something at 3 or 4 while one guy has it at 6. Striaght out of the box our teams are usually pretty well off in that respect, which is why having somewhere useful to advance is kinda important for us. The Awakened, Riggers, and to a lesser extent Deckers seem to fare the better in the long run compared to Sams and other specialist characters. They just have more places to go with both nuyen and karma. As TinkerG said a fundamental game issue I suppose.
And yes, one guy with biotech isnt smart, but when going from skill 0 to 3 is but 10 karma, and savior advanced medkits have biotech at 5 for some purposes, and the test is written that so you only need 1 success to first aid, its rarely an issue. The same can be said of most backup coverage for our games, death is rather rare and its not unusual to have several folks start with something at 3 or 4 while one guy has it at 6. Striaght out of the box our teams are usually pretty well off in that respect, which is why having somewhere useful to advance is kinda important for us. The Awakened, Riggers, and to a lesser extent Deckers seem to fare the better in the long run compared to Sams and other specialist characters. They just have more places to go with both nuyen and karma. As TinkerG said a fundamental game issue I suppose.
Between the medkits, biomonitors and trauma patches, having a backup medic is nice but not absolutely required.
Bear in mind, all that tech is great but the best it will do is keep a character from dying outright.
It's like Car -- so many samurai don't spend any points on a vehicle skill which _really_ complicates basic legwork. Some form of social interaction is also nice -- Etiquette or Negotiations.
-Siege
Bear in mind, all that tech is great but the best it will do is keep a character from dying outright.
It's like Car -- so many samurai don't spend any points on a vehicle skill which _really_ complicates basic legwork. Some form of social interaction is also nice -- Etiquette or Negotiations.
-Siege
Kinda off-topic, sorry. But why would you need a skill in Car? They have auto-pilots, and you can default to reaction since basic driving yould have a TN of 2 (should you actually, for some strange reason, need to take the wheel from the auto-pilot).
Sphynx
Sphynx
My GM rules that the autopilot is just good enough to make basic drives, essentially like a little old lady.
Which is fine for picking up groceries or coming home after a bender.
But it gets a little frustrating if you need to deviate from standard driving practices (exceeding the speed limit, driving on the sidewalk and so on) or if the autonav grid isn't working or just isn't there (Barrens).
Never mind high-speed pursuits or fleeing from aggravated people intent on seperating you from your vital organs.
-Siege
Edit: I would also point out that "basic driving" has a TN of 4 -- in all the games I've played in. It only gets harder from there. And defaulting to attribute still assess a basic penalty, doesn't it?
Which is fine for picking up groceries or coming home after a bender.
But it gets a little frustrating if you need to deviate from standard driving practices (exceeding the speed limit, driving on the sidewalk and so on) or if the autonav grid isn't working or just isn't there (Barrens).
Never mind high-speed pursuits or fleeing from aggravated people intent on seperating you from your vital organs.
-Siege
Edit: I would also point out that "basic driving" has a TN of 4 -- in all the games I've played in. It only gets harder from there. And defaulting to attribute still assess a basic penalty, doesn't it?
Well, I'd say it's be a Simple or -maybe- Routine task to drive, Average difficulty would entail Manual transmission or complex maneuvers.
Although I agree that driving carelessly (over sidewalks, sharp turns, etc) would constitute some driving skill, hell, even turning onto a busy intersection might, that's not what was mentioned. You said car skill to do legwork. Ie: driving like an old lady to a place to get information.
I buy an expensive car, with a nice autopilot rating, I tell it where I want to go, and I take a nap until I get there. If it takes me an hour cause my autopilot travels at half speed and waits at intersections until it has a mile of spare room to get on the intersection, so be it.
I don't think people in 2063 having alot of driving skill though, I think people are dependant on autopilots and are busy conducting conference calls, etc while their car takes them where they want to go, and I don't imagine it's as bad as the possible level I described either. I'll be up shit's creek without a paddle if some decker decides to play with the local traffic signals, true. But when that happened, I took a nap until my car was able to get clear of the traffic jam.
Sphynx
Although I agree that driving carelessly (over sidewalks, sharp turns, etc) would constitute some driving skill, hell, even turning onto a busy intersection might, that's not what was mentioned. You said car skill to do legwork. Ie: driving like an old lady to a place to get information.
I buy an expensive car, with a nice autopilot rating, I tell it where I want to go, and I take a nap until I get there. If it takes me an hour cause my autopilot travels at half speed and waits at intersections until it has a mile of spare room to get on the intersection, so be it.
I don't think people in 2063 having alot of driving skill though, I think people are dependant on autopilots and are busy conducting conference calls, etc while their car takes them where they want to go, and I don't imagine it's as bad as the possible level I described either. I'll be up shit's creek without a paddle if some decker decides to play with the local traffic signals, true. But when that happened, I took a nap until my car was able to get clear of the traffic jam.
Sphynx
I seem to recollect reading somewhere (I can't remember the page, sorry) that all characters are assumed to have the minimal skill required to operate a vehicle under normal conditions, however the car/bike skills apply to unusual things like driving over old ladies and on sidewalks etc.
That said, unless you are exceptionally good at hiding, being able to escape the scene (or to split up) is very useful. I think I've made all of 1 character without bike or car skill (because he's a country bumpkin) and I've never seen a party with less than half of all characters trained in either car or bike (including the 70BP ganger campaign). Being a shadowrunner generally involves running away from things, and honestly, I trust Ford over Nike for that sort of thing.
That said, unless you are exceptionally good at hiding, being able to escape the scene (or to split up) is very useful. I think I've made all of 1 character without bike or car skill (because he's a country bumpkin) and I've never seen a party with less than half of all characters trained in either car or bike (including the 70BP ganger campaign). Being a shadowrunner generally involves running away from things, and honestly, I trust Ford over Nike for that sort of thing.
Speedy Sphynx... I agree that the average person in the SR universe will NOT have exceptional car skill (although probably there are still driving tests to get your license). People still drive like morons, just like now, it's just that in SR the people can be morons doing their own thing and the cars to a good job on their own. However, I'm sure you've heard there are only two kinds of people who leave their doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition: cops and robbers, and the same is true. People chased by cops and the cops themselves (and security guards and news crews etc.) still cannot depend on auto pilot, and so they will know how to drive all on their own, probably at rating 2 or better.
Legwork could involve: shadowing a target or double-parking while the subject is otherwise engaged. Imagine all the other quasi-legal things you do behind the wheel on an average day, never mind what you would do when your immediate driving decisions are determined by the actions of your subject.
The autopilot probably wouldn't willingly violate traffic laws which complicates the character's immediate objective.
Unless of course you hack the autopilot, upgrade the entire system with a drone autosoft...
-Siege
The autopilot probably wouldn't willingly violate traffic laws which complicates the character's immediate objective.
Unless of course you hack the autopilot, upgrade the entire system with a drone autosoft...
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Edit: I would also point out that "basic driving" has a TN of 4 -- in all the games I've played in. |
It should actually be a base of the vehicle's handling. Since, you know, that's what all the other driving tests go off of. Even with day-to-day driving, some vehicles are just easier to get around in than others.
For all intents and purposes, Autopilots with a rating of 2 or higher drive like professional drivers with a Car skill equal to their rating (Rigger 3, p. 127). So an Autopilot 3 (let alone 4) is a pretty good damn driver, capable of compensating for other bad drivers, unexpected obstacles, and even breaking some traffic laws in an emergency. However they are very much safety-oriented and actually function has a penalty when you do try to manually perform crazy stunts or evade police (until you turn it off at least).
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