Problems with hacking rules - Dumpshock Forums

Problems with hacking rules

psychophipps View Member Profile	Jun 2 2007, 03:20 PM Post #26
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,192 Joined: 6-May 07 From: Texas - The RGV Member No.: 11,613	Drown him in useless crap. Sorry, but a Johnson isn't going to have any of his goodies on his comlink when he meets up with a team of Shadowrunners for the meet because it's just too damn risky for himself, the team and the Johnson's clients. Who says the 'runners or the Johnson were not followed by Corp-Sec or a rival? So let the hacker crack the throw-away comlink that the Johnson buys by the metric ton because there's nothing on there worth a rip. This is also a great way to see what's really going on in the player's head. If they run into scads of boring crap that has no real in-game value and still insist on cracking the comlinks of everyone they meet then you can tell he's attention-whoring. If they take the hint and look for some cues from you for when to crack out the 15 dice to rape, pillage and burn a system then you know he's just trying to cover the bases and do his job. It's one thing to roll now and again as they troll for comlink access codes to use later or sell on the black market (which my own hacker character, Sabot, does on a regular basis), it's another to sift through endless crap and suck up valuable game time. Just a trick I've picked up a while ago... Mark(psycho)Phippps( HAHAHA! )

Demon_Bob View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 12:16 AM Post #27
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226	It can be more amusing if the Johnson has the information of a fierce rival on his COMM-Link and a good Nano-paste mask. Just enough for the Runners to go looking for someone else after he betrays them.

Jimmy_the_Fixer View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 05:47 AM Post #28
Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 11-July 03 Member No.: 4,903	My real issue the actual dice rolling. What If I get into a situation wherein there is an important hacking situation and the game become's "look at the hacker roll for a half hour!" I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work.

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 06:04 AM Post #29
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	That is the reason that many GMs have banned hackers through the previous editions. Hacking may be a staple of cyberpunk, but it is a boring thing in an RPG. The other way to go with it is to come up with a simpler system that gets it all down to a few dice rolls. Another thing that you can do is don't let your players lead you when doing hacking. One thing that you can fall into is where the player tells you one thing that they do and you have to tell them the roll. Then they ask something else and you have to make more rolls. Don't let them do that to you. Ask what they are doing in general, what kind of thing they will go after, etc. Figure out a general time that will take (assuming we are not talking about combat time here) and then move on to another player. Make them wait till they would be finished to let them roll. Then let them make a data search roll and that be it. Use that roll for all of it. Give them an answer to as many questions that they have successes in that roll at most. The number of successes can also tell you if they find the really secret stuff. If they want to go after more info then make them wait again. Don't let them hog the play time and keep it short. Have single rolls of a particular type cover as much as possible. People are used to the roll for each action and that can drag a hacking part of a game down.

kzt

Jun 3 2007, 06:05 AM

Post #30

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QUOTE (Jimmy_the_Fixer)

I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work.

If you start with the assumption that you are not trying to simulate TRON you can do some interesting stuff, but it's hard work. A basic assumption would be to assume that somewhere along the line of multiple worldwide DISASTERS caused by crappy OS design and ridiculously poor computer security corporations stopped tolerating crappy, insecure OSs and insecure applications. You should also assume that the brain virus that appears to have made people in SR unable to write encryption more complex than ROT13 never shows up.

You end up being the kind of hacker where the primary target are the people in the corporation, not the computers. So the model becomes Mitnick's "The Art of Deception", not Gibson's "Neuromancer". (Given the Mitnick is a famous and semi-successful criminal hacker and Gibson refused to use computers for years I suspect one might be a more useful source.)

Basically, it would end up that you can't hack most peoples systems without their help, witting or not.

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 06:13 AM Post #31
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	Interesting idea kzt but then you end up with the Face as the hacker. That would be an interesting character, don't get me wrong. I think that it would be better to be able to do things both ways though.

kzt View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 07:33 AM Post #32
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	It would be, but it's hard to do such that you either can't hack anything or you can hack everything. At this point we are in mode B, and it's a problem for someone. I suspect that computer hacking will end up requiring skill rather than buying hardware and copying software. If you knew that any bored 13 years old could steal your ID, make phone calls to your bosses boss as you, and buy stuff using your money if you used a call phone, would you use a cell phone? My guess is that people eventually won't be willing to use systems that allow any bored 13 year old to steal their data and money. And companies will make money by writing OS/software that emphasizes security instead of flashy new features. So hacking a comlink would require getting physical possession of the device, which changes the entire cost/benefit equation. My guess is that in reality, the human will just about always be the weak element. Humans choose crappy passwords, humans don't like to lock their computer when they step away, they make mistakes in configuration, forget to turn on or of services, and humans don't always remember/want to lock the the laptop/disk drives in the safe at the end of the day like they should. And helpful people who will allow someone who "forgot" their badge to get into the data center.

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 08:24 AM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	Well I agree that the hacking rules shouldn't allow anyone to hack anything all the time. That is a bad part of the rules (actually I like very little of the hacking rules in shadowrun). The problem that I am seeing is that your solution eliminates a character type, a fairly major one. Now I would like to see more alternate path adventures where you can solve the problem in several different ways. I think that there should be a lot more work to provide the kind of social engineering situations in adventures. I think that fundamentally we need to step back and rework hacking based on the broadest effects as opposed to a series of discrete tasks. Figure out a way of making the game still interesting for the Hacker character but make it so that they are not rolling any more times then any other character. Once we do that then they are just another character type instead of a drain on game time.

kzt

Jun 3 2007, 08:34 AM

Post #34

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QUOTE (Garrowolf)

I think that fundamentally we need to step back and rework hacking based on the broadest effects as opposed to a series of discrete tasks. Figure out a way of making the game still interesting for the Hacker character but make it so that they are not rolling any more times then any other character. Once we do that then they are just another character type instead of a drain on game time.

We've gone to having the hacker as an NPC. He's a GM tool to get us the information we should have, provide electronic security and to chase after information that we decide to research. Without tying up the game very much.

It kind of sucks, but it seems to work better than the alternatives we tried. Our groups end up consisting of mages and physical adepts with some light cyber/bioware.

Redoing the system is a better option in many ways, assuming that you have the time and motivation to do it effectively. And it's a pretty good amount of work, since "how computers work" underlies the game in many ways.

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 3 2007, 09:16 AM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	I think that one of the problems IS the part about how computers work. I've done some basic programming but I have the jist of computers enough to have been bothered by the Shadowrun view from the beginning. The cyberpunk writers that started it all knew little to nothing about computers. SR4 tried to update it but it carries too many bad legacy assumptions from the earlier versions. It also has this idea that computers will be moving so fast that it will mainly be computers talking to computers and the hacker is more of a program activator then an innovator. It seems to me that the designers are caught half way between two ideas. One is the Hacker as a console cowboy which is so basic to cyberpunk. The other is the idea that the matrix moves so fast that really only personas can do anything about another matrix action. I think that they have gotten so caught up in the idea of speed that they have slowed the game down incredibly. It is more about the hardware and the software then the characters. This causes a chain reaction of not being able to accept anything but the hottest gear and the highest program ratings. It ends up being a situation where only the fact that you have some limitations at character creation justify the existence of anything but the highest rated gear. I'm not feeling well, I'll try and continue later.

Spoonfunk

Jun 3 2007, 11:49 AM

Post #36

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QUOTE

My real issue the actual dice rolling. What If I get into a situation wherein there is an important hacking situation and the game become's "look at the hacker roll for a half hour!"

If its the time issue, then politely explain to the player that even though hacking is supposed to be a super quick speed of thought thing there are other players and while he is hacking you are going to take turns. I know its stretching the world but as soon as he is hogging up game time then im sure he'll see the light and be patient and wait his turn.

Now as far as him hacking everything he see's and getting by it, well then i suggest you put on the chaotic evil, helm whenever it comes to anything even remotely matrix related. Think about it, the world of 2070 is rife with computer related espionage. Its seen two crashes, AI trying to take over the world, deckers that create virus's that kill massive amounts of people, otaku(now technomancers) blatantly ignoring the laws of science and abusing systems left and right. I would think that anyone even relatively knowledgable about computers would have security measures up the wazoo. Make hacking hard not just because you are mean but just because it shouldn't be easy. Anytime a hacker rests on his laurels and relies solely on his commlink and programs then hit him with wammee after wammee. If he doesn't approach his hacking with every amount of thought the face approaches people or the sammie destroys things with then take that as an excuse to be a bastard. Throw data bomb, agents equipped with all sorts of attack, black hammer, tracking and armor at him. Have Matrix police actually rear their head (remember commlinks just like houses can have alarms that call the cops) If he doesn't wipe his datatrail have RL cops kicking down his door. HAVE OTHER HACKERS HACK THE SHIT OUT OF HIM!!!! he isn't the only stooge with a CmLk and programs. Be wrong be ugly be mean...but play by the rules when your doing it. Most of all be realistic just extremely realistic if you know what I mean. These characters are living in an age of paranoia, no matter where you go their is a camera watching everything you do, eat, sleep...you name it. It makes sense that people would be just as paranoid about the computers they use because they are living in an ultra information age.

sunnyside

Jun 3 2007, 01:32 PM

Post #37

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QUOTE (Jimmy_the_Fixer)

My real issue the actual dice rolling. What If I get into a situation wherein there is an important hacking situation and the game become's "look at the hacker roll for a half hour!"

I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work.

That just doesn't happen for me. Could you describe a bit more what's going on in this half hour?

If they're hacking an easyish thing buying hits on EW and decrypt takes you straight to exploit. you roll for detection. once in at admin it's pretty trivial.

If they're hacking a mainframe and the spotlight is on them either their stealth holds and they find/defuse the databomb or they don't and they have to work fast before they're swarmed (remember a corp can call in spiders from all over, and deploy IC from other systems)

If they want to hack a bunch of easy things, as may come up, I strongly suggest using agents.

hobgoblin

Jun 3 2007, 02:25 PM

Post #38

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QUOTE (kzt)

If you knew that any bored 13 years old could steal your ID, make phone calls to your bosses boss as you, and buy stuff using your money if you used a call phone, would you use a cell phone?

one thing about that scenario is that today the punishment for said crime on a minor would be minimal at best. but in SR said crime can be quite harsh indeed ;)

as in, today computer crime is a kind of paper crime. if you get caught there is jail sure, but the actual crime itself is near risk free. no guards that will shoot at you and similar. but in SR there are IC that can and will blast you offline at best if you mess up, and on higher end targets they can even kill you. that ups the risk factor quite a bit.

so, have some high end news items that talk about a hacker found dead after trying to hack some high security node, and present it as if its a hardend criminal getting his dues.

today we kinda laugh at the image of armed FBI storing a room where a guy sits at his desk typing at a keyboard, as if its a full on overreaction from the FBI side.

sadly the crime rating table that was in older SR version do not appear in SR4 iirc. in those i belive that a cyberdeck or some kinds of software was in the same area as weapons smuggling...

hell, recall the troubles one guy got about releasing PGP online (pretty good privacy, a email encryption program)? at the time, the US government looked at any encryption above a X bit keylength as military weapons.

what if that way of thinking have been maintained in SR? also, now one can have roving agents armed with hardware burning code (it didnt show up in the main book, but im 99% sure it will in unwired, its to much of a SR feature not to) that could turn any node it finds that have military grade encryption code up for grabs into some very expensive junk. who would then risk it? like i said above, today computer crime is seen as near risk free, maybe even some kind of mental extreme sport for some (kinda like breaking into a building to go skydiving of its roof).

btw, the encryption description in SR4 talk about some variant having embedded IC as a second line of defense. to me that sounds like encryption going from being the bunker walls to being the chain link fence, with guards and paracritters behind it.

as in, even if you copy a encrypted file, IC comes with it. and when you try to decrypt it, the IC spawns and attacks you. and as its inside the encryption, it will just spawn again if you crash it or similar. and what if said IC carry black hammer? would you risk it?

i have long held the idea that every file in SR contains some kind of executable code. as in, there are no pure datafiles in SR. at least they come with some kind of reader program.

oh, and what kind of equipment do you expect a bored 13 year old to pack? 6 across the board? highly unlikely given that miracle shooter is said to not leave much workload on a comlink. and with VR, everpresent net and most likely more MMO games then you can shake a troll at, how would any 13 year old get bored in the first place?

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 4 2007, 01:30 AM Post #39
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	Yes but then you are creating in game reasons to compensate for a game mechanic problem. That is like having a wagon wheel on a race car and instead of fixing it you make up a long tradition about it!

Jimmy_the_Fixer

Jun 6 2007, 01:03 AM

Post #40

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QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 3 2007, 01:32 PM)

That just doesn't happen for me. Could you describe a bit more what's going on in this half hour?

basically what happens is he declares"I dun gonna hack this thing!" he then rolls dice. I say "what, why, to what end?" he then sits and thinks about what it is he's going in there for... this takes a few minutes, and the rest of the players are silent. no one does anything. or says anything. they wanna wait for the hacker to go for his dice rolling record. (he always refuses to buy hits, seeing his odds as much better when he just rolls, so the mechanic is totally ignored by the entire group.)

So he tries to hack whatever it is (useually a commlink), there is a few rolls back and forth (him trying to hack, the resisstance rolls, etc.) he gets in, runs a search program (he rolls, I roll to detect) he finds it, I figure out what it is he found (this was our first session and I didn't figure all his legwork was going to revolve around each Jhonson they met.)

so he gets his thing. this is constant and takes forever. Then, when they are about to go on a run, he then (finally) does legwork related to the actual run. More silence on the part of the group. Then a series of hacking rolls, resistance rolls, detection rolls, program rolls, combat rolls, rolls to remove his datatrail = minimul info because he has no clue as to what he's looking for!

it wouldn't be a problem if he said "I want maps, security layout, gaurd numbers/equipment, and security shift times." but no, it's always him sitting there, dice in hand, going "uhhh, I dunno, info." so I wasn't real sure what to give them, and so I just showed the map I had drawn, and told them the basic security they had going. This took up the bulk of the session, they spent hours just talking to Jhonsons and waiting for the hacker.

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 02:34 AM Post #41
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	that's really more of a player problem than a game problem. if you're spending that much time waiting for him to figure out what he's looking for, then just leave him sitting there scratching his head while the rest of you go on with the rest of the game. don't let him search unless he says what he's looking for--"i dunno, info" does not cut it. you can't just open up Google and find answers--you have to actually type things into the search field first.

kigmatzomat View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 02:47 AM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626	I agree, you have to set a limit. IMO, dead air in a game is just as bad as dead air on a TV show; you don't want to lose the momentum. Anyone says "duhhhh.......I'm not sure...." in my game and I tell them they can either stand still/follow the others or do some relatively basic useful thing. For a hacker that would be scan for hidden nodes or communication, a mage astrally perceive, samurai make a perception test, etc. Something their character would be expected to do when not doing anything else. If they complain, talk with them out of the game. Inform them they can't disrupt the game flow and if playing a hacker is a problem, perhaps you can find something more to their liking, like a gun bunny. Suggest they make up a cheat sheet for themselves with the common hacking tasks and when they should be done so that if they have a brain fart they can pick something useful off the list.

Demon_Bob

Jun 6 2007, 03:32 AM

Post #43

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QUOTE (kigmatzomat)

If they complain, talk with them out of the game. Inform them they can't disrupt the game flow and if playing a hacker is a problem, perhaps you can find something more to their liking, like a gun bunny. Suggest they make up a cheat sheet for themselves with the common hacking tasks and when they should be done so that if they have a brain fart they can pick something useful off the list.

8) me like much 8)

deek View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 02:20 PM Post #44
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814	Yeah, I'd have to agree this is a player problem...and a bit of an inexperienced GM. While the hacker in our group likes to "just hack things", we do that on his downtime. In game, (or in a situation like what you describe), if I don't already have an idea of why he is hacking a comm, I ask. If he doesn't know, then I tell him to let me know when he does know and we move on. Actually, a non-hacking PC in our last session wanted to upload a video he recorded to a "youtube" site. He first asked me what program he would need to upload data. Then started looking at skills. I quickly asked what are you trying to do and he told me. We resolved that by a single Computer+Edit roll. He got two successes and we moved on. Now, had I not asked this question, we may have gone down a roll of him trying to access different public nodes in VR, do a lot more rolls and really bog down the game. Instead, it was one roll...heck, he could have done this in VR, but to the game, the point was he wanted a video uploaded, didn't matter how it happened. Hacker wants some "info" from MrJ? Find out what he is looking for first. If you don't have anything planned out, don't just give him anything. Let him gain access and to a data search for something specific, and then tell him he finds nothing...that should be pretty quick.

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 02:24 PM Post #45
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	it really sounds like the player just wants to hack. which shouldn't be surprising--he's playing a full-on hacker. i really, really suggest sitting down with him solo and letting him hack, one-on-one with the GM, for several hours. that way, he gets some of it out of his system, and more importantly, it gives the GM a chance to get a much stronger grasp of the rules.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 05:13 PM Post #46
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Another way to speed things up is, if you know that he could succeed by buying hits, don't ask him if he wants to roll or buy hits, just tell him he gets in. And if you don't want him to get in, don't forget you can justifiably add +6 to the hacking threshold for anything that only has an admin account. It's been debated before, but as GM you could easily declare that hacking anyone's commlink faces the +6 admin account modifier. Mr. Johnson's commlink is designed for security, and with that +6 on top, if he can hack that on the fly without tripping an alarm, then he deserves it. And if he does trip an alarm which results in some social rolls trying to convince Mr. J not to walk and ends with them taking a severe pay cut, then maybe he'll think before he hacks next time. Also, if he's saying "uhhhhh, info", I would absolutely let him roll. And I would give him a hefty dice penalty (-4?) for such vague search parameters, and I would tell him why. As always YMMV.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 08:16 PM Post #47
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	it also sounds like doing legwork is done as hacking target after target. doing online legwork is what the data search is made for. and as he dont specify, make him do the whole matrix for some obscure info (12+ successes iirc) and then just count the number of rolls he makes. as i think its one hour or more pr roll on that, he may not come up with much ;)

Aaron

Jun 6 2007, 09:37 PM

Post #48

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

it also sounds like doing legwork is done as hacking target after target.

doing online legwork is what the data search is made for.

and as he dont specify, make him do the whole matrix for some obscure info (12+ successes iirc) and then just count the number of rolls he makes. as i think its one hour or more pr roll on that, he may not come up with much ;)

If by "one hour" you mean "one minute," then you're right. =i)

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 09:39 PM Post #49
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	going by memory, but i was damn sure those rolls had a longer time frame then one min. crap...

Garrowolf View Member Profile	Jun 6 2007, 09:41 PM Post #50
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517	per hour WOULD shut that player up!

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