I recently ran a game wherein my friend played a horribly min-maxed hacker, and ended up taking all the game time hacking Johnsons' commlinks, and a corporate mainframe.
The rest of the group just sat there waiting for him while he rolled obcene amounts of dice, and thus I had to roll an obscene amount of dice, and it became a really boring game of yahtzee.
how have you guys dealt with the overly complicated hacking rules? I don't want to just tell him "yes" every time he wants info, and the rest of the players are tired of waiting on him.
what the hell do I do?
Full Version: Problems with hacking rules
First thing to do is to stop rolling your dice and begin cashing in on the 4 dice = 1 hit ratio. So, you have 18 dice in your pool? That's 4 hits and roll the remaining two dice to see if you get 5 or 6. Granted, you might get more hits if you rolled (statistically, you would) but dividing by 4 is relatively fast and rolling two dice and looking for hits is easier/faster than doing the same for 18.
Don't force the players to do this unless they want to. I started doing it towards the end of this past school year's gaming (I work mostly with a university based gaming club so the summers are light on gaming) and I found that after a session or two, the players began to cash in dice for hits, too. Made things move along much quicker.
Then, the only way to combat over-excited characters in any format is to make sure you can shut them down at some point. Hacker wasting time doing the Johnson's commlink? Stop the hacking scene and have a waiter come over and ask for drink orders (assuming the meet is in a restaurant; other settings can be extrapolated from this example). Since your hacker is distracted by his hacking, make him roll to see if he hears the waiter. Then, the Johnson gets suspicious because here's a guy with a glassy eyed stare who hasn't contributed to the conversation very much and he's not noticing it when others talk to him .... what's he up to exactly? It's at that point when the Johnson (or whom ever the target is) might begin to actively resist the hacker, or just turn off the commlink.
And, finally, no matter what the book says, not everything is easily hackable. Maybe the Johnson uses skinlinks or doesn't have a commlink on him. Or, maybe the Johnson has an internal commlink with sensitive data while his external one is filled with seemingly important but actually useless crap. Hell, maybe the Johnson has a nice Technomancer friend who's loaned him a sprite so that he gets a little help from a semi-intelligent entity who lives in his commlink.
In other words, the easiest way to shut down someone whose hogging the limelight is either (a) to move the limelight or (b) to do something unexpected forcing the player to change tactics or stop hogging.
Don't force the players to do this unless they want to. I started doing it towards the end of this past school year's gaming (I work mostly with a university based gaming club so the summers are light on gaming) and I found that after a session or two, the players began to cash in dice for hits, too. Made things move along much quicker.
Then, the only way to combat over-excited characters in any format is to make sure you can shut them down at some point. Hacker wasting time doing the Johnson's commlink? Stop the hacking scene and have a waiter come over and ask for drink orders (assuming the meet is in a restaurant; other settings can be extrapolated from this example). Since your hacker is distracted by his hacking, make him roll to see if he hears the waiter. Then, the Johnson gets suspicious because here's a guy with a glassy eyed stare who hasn't contributed to the conversation very much and he's not noticing it when others talk to him .... what's he up to exactly? It's at that point when the Johnson (or whom ever the target is) might begin to actively resist the hacker, or just turn off the commlink.
And, finally, no matter what the book says, not everything is easily hackable. Maybe the Johnson uses skinlinks or doesn't have a commlink on him. Or, maybe the Johnson has an internal commlink with sensitive data while his external one is filled with seemingly important but actually useless crap. Hell, maybe the Johnson has a nice Technomancer friend who's loaned him a sprite so that he gets a little help from a semi-intelligent entity who lives in his commlink.
In other words, the easiest way to shut down someone whose hogging the limelight is either (a) to move the limelight or (b) to do something unexpected forcing the player to change tactics or stop hogging.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| And, finally, no matter what the book says, not everything is easily hackable. |
If the book says everything is easily hackable, then it is. Fortunately, it doesn't. Unless the Johnson is completely new to the shadowrunning business, then he'd have some precautions to prevent hacking of his commlink. It might be anything as simple as just a good Firewall to IC or a sprite on remote service.
Remember you know your players. If throwing obstacles in their way only forces a munchkin response and aggravates the situation, then don't. If the player wants to hog the limelight, then it is better to have a talk with the player rather than forcing an ingame response.
| QUOTE |
| First thing to do is to stop rolling your dice and begin cashing in on the 4 dice = 1 hit ratio. So, you have 18 dice in your pool? That's 4 hits and roll the remaining two dice to see if you get 5 or 6. Granted, you might get more hits if you rolled (statistically, you would) but dividing by 4 is relatively fast and rolling two dice and looking for hits is easier/faster than doing the same for 18. |
IIR, the rule says you divide by our and drop remainders - so 18 dice gets you 4 hits (as would any dice pool from 16-19) and you wouln't roll any dice. This is fast, but since averages say you should get 1 hit per 3 dice, my players seldom use it unless it's an unopposed task.
The 4:1 trade in doesn't allow to roll the remainder...just want to clear that up. So 18 dice, per RAW, is only worth 4 successes; you don't get to roll the two "extra" dice if you invoke the trade-in.
As to the hacking situation, I have run across it as well...there is really no game mechanic to speed this up and the "waiter" suggestion, well, is a bit unrealistic because as you hacker is going through his IPs, each combat turn is only 3 seconds of game time...not a lot happens in the real world when you are going through IPs.
My suggestion would be to ask the player what his intentions are. If he is bored and just wanting to roll some dice, I'd say well, everyone else is bored with you doing what he is doing, so let's get through this meet and then the action will start. If the hacker is looking for something specific, its pretty easy to get to that point, either satisfy his desire or put an obstacle in his way, preferrably to knock him out of the comm, as opposed to causing it to take longer.
Hacking, unfortunately, bogs down gameplay unless everyone is acting in IPs...no way around it, no matter how streamlined SR4 is. But, in this instance, its more of a "player" issue, than a mechanic issue. The GM should make that clear that if he is really trying to get "useful" information, then that's ok and we just need to move through it. If he is not, then say there are other people at this table playing and they'd like a chance to interact as well...
As to the hacking situation, I have run across it as well...there is really no game mechanic to speed this up and the "waiter" suggestion, well, is a bit unrealistic because as you hacker is going through his IPs, each combat turn is only 3 seconds of game time...not a lot happens in the real world when you are going through IPs.
My suggestion would be to ask the player what his intentions are. If he is bored and just wanting to roll some dice, I'd say well, everyone else is bored with you doing what he is doing, so let's get through this meet and then the action will start. If the hacker is looking for something specific, its pretty easy to get to that point, either satisfy his desire or put an obstacle in his way, preferrably to knock him out of the comm, as opposed to causing it to take longer.
Hacking, unfortunately, bogs down gameplay unless everyone is acting in IPs...no way around it, no matter how streamlined SR4 is. But, in this instance, its more of a "player" issue, than a mechanic issue. The GM should make that clear that if he is really trying to get "useful" information, then that's ok and we just need to move through it. If he is not, then say there are other people at this table playing and they'd like a chance to interact as well...
Also remember that if the hacker is hacking "on the fly" then he/she will be facing simultaneous rolls. Most likely the Johnson will have a GOOD commlink with rating 5 programs and rating 4 agents. That gives a possibility to run "Analyze" with 4+ agents on the commlink at rating 4 with agents 4.
(Rating 5 response commlink can run 9 programs at rating 4 before response drops again. Agent+running program counts as 2 running programs)
That's 4+ agents AND the system itself. If the hacker has a rating 5 stealth program they need 5 successes in TOTAL. If the hacker needs 4 dicerolls to crack the firewall then each agent and system rolls its dice 4 times.
As soon as they manage to gain 5 successes then they will find the hacker. All agents switch to attack programs and pounce him when he enters.
(Rating 5 response commlink can run 9 programs at rating 4 before response drops again. Agent+running program counts as 2 running programs)
That's 4+ agents AND the system itself. If the hacker has a rating 5 stealth program they need 5 successes in TOTAL. If the hacker needs 4 dicerolls to crack the firewall then each agent and system rolls its dice 4 times.
As soon as they manage to gain 5 successes then they will find the hacker. All agents switch to attack programs and pounce him when he enters.
RE: no rolling of remainders ...
Interesting. Well, we've all been pretty happy with rolling the remainders because it still allows for some variability in results rather than always rolling 4 hits when your pool is between 16 and 19.
Interesting. Well, we've all been pretty happy with rolling the remainders because it still allows for some variability in results rather than always rolling 4 hits when your pool is between 16 and 19.
Here's a tip: Fast extended test. Basically, instead of letting the player roll his Exploit+Hacking 10 times (or however many times he has dice pool), simply allow him to roll once. If he get's no successes, he fails. Divide the threshold (say, 10 on an OK commlink) on the number of successes he got, that's how many rolls it took him to hack it.
Of course, he can't roll more times than his dice pool, so if he has 10 dice and the threshold is 11 or more, he fails if he only gets one hit in the roll.
If he succeeds, roll the opposing analyze+firwall, and multiply hits by the number of rolls the player needed. If this number equals or exceeds the player's Stealth program rating, the alarm goes off, the commlink shuts down or reboots, or attack IC come running.
The player should realize pretty soon that hacking everything is just too risky as sooner or later he will fail.
Of course, he can't roll more times than his dice pool, so if he has 10 dice and the threshold is 11 or more, he fails if he only gets one hit in the roll.
If he succeeds, roll the opposing analyze+firwall, and multiply hits by the number of rolls the player needed. If this number equals or exceeds the player's Stealth program rating, the alarm goes off, the commlink shuts down or reboots, or attack IC come running.
The player should realize pretty soon that hacking everything is just too risky as sooner or later he will fail.
@Jopp I'm pretty sure when someone hacks it's just the system rolling against them. IC have analyze to find them or interogate icons once inside.
Anyway the first thing is to make sure that you're taking advantage of the streamlining of SR4 and generally hacking quick. This goes regardless of whether a player is doing it to much, hacking should be kept fast.
Remember in SR4 players don't need to know target numbers or anything, and a hacker should know what they're rolling. Often just watching out for glitches, or not getting enough hits after they've rolled as many times as their skill rating. Also I strongly advise making "shadowrun die" for hackers where you take a pen/marker and color 2's 3's and 4's the same color as the body of the die, color the 1's a different high contrast color and the 5's and 6's a third color so you just look and see what you got.
i.e. hacking should go like.
player: I want to hack the Johnsons comlink.
GM: Ok he's operating in hidden mode, have to find him in the noise
player: Rolling electronic warefare, 4 hits, 5 hits , 4 hits (they should keep going till you stop them)
GM: got it
Player: Hacking on fly, user level access, hot sim, 6 hits
GM: You're in (note that as the GM you should have rolled at least the first batch of dice for detection while the player was rolling EW since you could bet this would come up. Roll the second batch while they're rolling their second batch if needed)
That should have taken 20 seconds tops, don't lollygag when hacking.
Once inside they should again know what to roll for what they want to do so they should be rolling die while they say what they want to do. If you rule agents or spiders are checking the area out (usually don't) roll that while they're doing their thing.
Also remember that in SR4 there isn't a security sheave or subprocessors. If they get caught the system throws whatever it has at them and if what they have isn't winning typically it'll try and restart or the owner may shut down all wireless access(cutting the action short and moving on) exceptions being servers and the like, or system interested in getting a trace (which often results in the hacker logging off fast).
If they do run into IC they should also be rolling die when you say what the attack is, so you'd be rolling at the same time.
Second. Make sure you reality check what they're hacking. First the really good stuff isn't on systems accesable by the matrix. Hence all the runs inside buildings to get the data. Also if a J's comlink tells him it's gone on alert they probably immediatly turn the wireless off (meaning hacking a J's comlink will typically be over in 30 secs or less as you'll either get in and get something or get dumped). But they'll be suspicious and next time may have a friend scanning the airwaves at the meet.
Anyway the first thing is to make sure that you're taking advantage of the streamlining of SR4 and generally hacking quick. This goes regardless of whether a player is doing it to much, hacking should be kept fast.
Remember in SR4 players don't need to know target numbers or anything, and a hacker should know what they're rolling. Often just watching out for glitches, or not getting enough hits after they've rolled as many times as their skill rating. Also I strongly advise making "shadowrun die" for hackers where you take a pen/marker and color 2's 3's and 4's the same color as the body of the die, color the 1's a different high contrast color and the 5's and 6's a third color so you just look and see what you got.
i.e. hacking should go like.
player: I want to hack the Johnsons comlink.
GM: Ok he's operating in hidden mode, have to find him in the noise
player: Rolling electronic warefare, 4 hits, 5 hits , 4 hits (they should keep going till you stop them)
GM: got it
Player: Hacking on fly, user level access, hot sim, 6 hits
GM: You're in (note that as the GM you should have rolled at least the first batch of dice for detection while the player was rolling EW since you could bet this would come up. Roll the second batch while they're rolling their second batch if needed)
That should have taken 20 seconds tops, don't lollygag when hacking.
Once inside they should again know what to roll for what they want to do so they should be rolling die while they say what they want to do. If you rule agents or spiders are checking the area out (usually don't) roll that while they're doing their thing.
Also remember that in SR4 there isn't a security sheave or subprocessors. If they get caught the system throws whatever it has at them and if what they have isn't winning typically it'll try and restart or the owner may shut down all wireless access(cutting the action short and moving on) exceptions being servers and the like, or system interested in getting a trace (which often results in the hacker logging off fast).
If they do run into IC they should also be rolling die when you say what the attack is, so you'd be rolling at the same time.
Second. Make sure you reality check what they're hacking. First the really good stuff isn't on systems accesable by the matrix. Hence all the runs inside buildings to get the data. Also if a J's comlink tells him it's gone on alert they probably immediatly turn the wireless off (meaning hacking a J's comlink will typically be over in 30 secs or less as you'll either get in and get something or get dumped). But they'll be suspicious and next time may have a friend scanning the airwaves at the meet.
yeah, I agree, if your game is turning into "The hacker show". You can pause the action and say "So while he's doing blah, what are you doing?". Also, for hacks that aren't directly story important, I reduce it to 1 or 2 rolls, their hits vs firewall, if they beat firewall they get in clean, if they don't then I make a quick roll to see if they're tracked or tagged. No combat, no details, if its not important to the story or the run, don't bother with spending time on it.
I like the idea of rolling remainders, good idea. It's not the written rules, but makes it a bit more interesting.
I like the idea of rolling remainders, good idea. It's not the written rules, but makes it a bit more interesting.
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 1 2007, 11:51 AM) |
| Also I strongly advise making "shadowrun die" for hackers where you take a pen/marker and color 2's 3's and 4's the same color as the body of the die, color the 1's a different high contrast color and the 5's and 6's a third color so you just look and see what you got. |
I have done this and it is a real life saver. Everyone else in the group loves those dice and are going to do it to theirs (or buy some they can do it to since bulk six sided dice are cheap)
It really speeds up counting hits and such.
I use black dice with white pips. Color the 2's 3's and 4's black, color the 1's red, and leave the 5's and 6's white. Count your whites and you have hits. Count reds and you have number for glitches.
It is useful for every test in the game not just hacking.
Why would a Johnson going to a meet with criminals carry a commlink? If he does, it sure as shit won't have anything remotely interesting in it. He's called Mr. Johnson because he's trying to be anonymous!
Don't even make the hacker roll. Tell him he breaks through the firewall 1 defences with no effort and he finds nothing of interest.
That'll cut down on your dice rolling.
Don't even make the hacker roll. Tell him he breaks through the firewall 1 defences with no effort and he finds nothing of interest.
That'll cut down on your dice rolling.
| QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 1 2007, 06:26 PM) |
| Why would a Johnson going to a meet with criminals carry a commlink? If he does, it sure as shit won't have anything remotely interesting in it. He's called Mr. Johnson because he's trying to be anonymous! Don't even make the hacker roll. Tell him he breaks through the firewall 1 defences with no effort and he finds nothing of interest. That'll cut down on your dice rolling. |
Heh. I was just about to go with the exact opposite approach. If the Johnson is a professional, he is likely to have pretty good security. If he's corporate then I would expect this to include some decent IC and possibly a hacker on overwatch.
Don't forget that trying to break into your employer's commlink is very much not a friendly thing to do. I'd imagine one likely scene to be something like:
| QUOTE |
Hacker: I break into his commlink. GM: The IC notices you and puts the system on alert. Johnson (gets up): This meeting is at an end. |
The other players should regard their hacker losing them a job or ally in much the same way they would if it happened through a Samurai beating them up. I would go with an ally as it has less session-ending potential, but will still drive home to them how people will act when they catch someone breaking into their personal files.
Give them a Johnson from Renraku. That corp is a world leader in security software and their Johnson would come well prepared.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Why would a Johnson going to a meet with criminals carry a commlink? If he does, it sure as shit won't have anything remotely interesting in it. He's called Mr. Johnson because he's trying to be anonymous! |
And any Johnson who doesn't bring a vanilla, off-the-shelf commlink to the run soon finds his parent corp or organization doesn't like him anymore, so any useful blackmail or info 'Aha! He works for Aztechnology!' is swiftly countered by 'Aha! They just pulled his luxury sedan out of Puget Sound with him in it!'.
And since megacorporations have so many shell companies and have partial control of other companies, I'd wager (and in my games especially) that a Johnson could have a commlink identify him as an employee of a company with multiple ownership by the megas. Now who's calling the shots?
Hell, to go one step further, they could have a bogus commlink/SIN combo that if the run gets nasty (and it will) and the runners want revenge, they go wreak havok on the hiring corp's biggest archrival. How would that not make the Home Office happy?
I'm still debating the concept behind commlinks, I have to imagine they have a SIM card (or modern equivalent) where you keep all your relevant info (phone numbers, contact info, SIN, house access code, car access code). All the Johnson does (or is made to do) is pull his real SIM card out and insert a new generic SIM (full of false data to intentionally redirect hackers) and go out to do his hiring. If the run goes bad, the Johnson's career is on the line. He or she is not going to make a rookie-level mistake... twice.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Why would a Johnson going to a meet with criminals carry a commlink? If he does, it sure as shit won't have anything remotely interesting in it. He's called Mr. Johnson because he's trying to be anonymous! |
Sometimes the Johnson really needs a team who has the wherewithal to hack the commlink on the fly and get what they need.
"Ah, you are just the people I need, your hacker will have the details, I will see you at the payoff. Congratulations and goodbye."
the quick solution to the OP's problem is to simply make sure there's nothing useful to hack until the GM wants to include some hacking-related challenges (which should be pretty frequently, since the player obviously likes hacking so much). if the hacker hacks the J's commlink, you say "okay, you get in but there's no useful information". don't bother rolling. if he attacks a tougher system, do a few rolls to see if the hacker trips any alarms before telling him "sorry, nothing good in here".
however, there's another issue, here. the OP's player appears to know the rules better than the GM, and that is never good. if the GM doesn't know the Matrix rules well, there are two options: one, cut out the Matrix from the game. disallow hacker characters, and handle Matrix stuff with NPCs. that, honestly, is a bad solution; it limits the game. which is why i would strongly recommend the second option: learn the Matrix rules. if you are the GM, and you have a player who wants to play a hacker, you need to know the rules.
and you know what? your player can help you. he wants to hack stuff, so take a few hours with him alone and let him. that will allow you, as the GM, to focus solely on learning the Matrix rules, and it will allow the player to get some of his desire to hack out of the way.
however, there's another issue, here. the OP's player appears to know the rules better than the GM, and that is never good. if the GM doesn't know the Matrix rules well, there are two options: one, cut out the Matrix from the game. disallow hacker characters, and handle Matrix stuff with NPCs. that, honestly, is a bad solution; it limits the game. which is why i would strongly recommend the second option: learn the Matrix rules. if you are the GM, and you have a player who wants to play a hacker, you need to know the rules.
and you know what? your player can help you. he wants to hack stuff, so take a few hours with him alone and let him. that will allow you, as the GM, to focus solely on learning the Matrix rules, and it will allow the player to get some of his desire to hack out of the way.
Personally I figure a Johnson always has a comlink. In 2070 where people use the thing constantly not having a comlink for an hour is like one of us not having net or cellphone access for a day.
However I do figure that the comlink a Johnson takes to a meeting to at least have a fake SIN on it. At least if the Johnson is meeting in neutral turf. And as such they probably are just using a rating 5 model (have to at least keep up apperances). Typical stuff on the thing would be junk but things like recent surfing messages or comcall logs might be useful.
Though having them be always useless would cut down on die rolling.
However I do figure that the comlink a Johnson takes to a meeting to at least have a fake SIN on it. At least if the Johnson is meeting in neutral turf. And as such they probably are just using a rating 5 model (have to at least keep up apperances). Typical stuff on the thing would be junk but things like recent surfing messages or comcall logs might be useful.
Though having them be always useless would cut down on die rolling.
| QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 1 2007, 02:27 PM) | ||||
Heh. I was just about to go with the exact opposite approach. If the Johnson is a professional, he is likely to have pretty good security. If he's corporate then I would expect this to include some decent IC and possibly a hacker on overwatch. Don't forget that trying to break into your employer's commlink is very much not a friendly thing to do. I'd imagine one likely scene to be something like:
The other players should regard their hacker losing them a job or ally in much the same way they would if it happened through a Samurai beating them up. I would go with an ally as it has less session-ending potential, but will still drive home to them how people will act when they catch someone breaking into their personal files. Give them a Johnson from Renraku. That corp is a world leader in security software and their Johnson would come well prepared. |
Just because an IC notices you does not mean you are found out. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the IC would first have to successfully track you to know who it was. A Johnson is not going to immediately assume it is the hacker of the group he is looking to hire, especially since shadowruns can involve multiple interested parties that will stop at nothing to make sure they come out on top when everything is said and done. As long as the AID of the hacker is spoofed, he is not going to immediately know who it is. So, I do not think your scenario is valid.
Also, if the group is smart, the only person that shows up for the meet is the Face. There is no need to have all those socially uncouth team members, dressed liked bums you would find in the Barrens. That, and in SR4 very few people meet face to face anymore, only the old fashioned or the evil plotting Johnsons want to see you face to face for "the meet". The matrix is the main source of communication, at least that is the way the book depicts it.
It all depends on the Johnson. Some will have carry a cheap-o expendable off the shelf and have that running public.
As a GM you need to detemine the flavor of the Johnson.
Personally If I was a johnson I would have the honey-pot comlink with all this nice fake data on it and a very good tracking/stealth program. Sure the hacker at the meet may get in and poke around, but those programs will do a complete trace and therefore the johnson will KNOW the individuals that he is wanting to hire hacked him.
Wonder how long your reputation will hold when all your contacts know that you will hack them during a meeting.
As a GM you need to detemine the flavor of the Johnson.
Personally If I was a johnson I would have the honey-pot comlink with all this nice fake data on it and a very good tracking/stealth program. Sure the hacker at the meet may get in and poke around, but those programs will do a complete trace and therefore the johnson will KNOW the individuals that he is wanting to hire hacked him.
Wonder how long your reputation will hold when all your contacts know that you will hack them during a meeting.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| Sometimes the Johnson really needs a team who has the wherewithal to hack the commlink on the fly and get what they need. "Ah, you are just the people I need, your hacker will have the details, I will see you at the payoff. Congratulations and goodbye." |
That's one scenario I thought of, and really the only one where hacking the J's commlink would do you any good. But that would only happen in the Mr. J is actually hiring a team of hackers and wants to test them that way. Remember, the Johnsons (generally) WANTS you to succeed. He's not going to hide info and if you hack him, you get a bonus, if not, too bad. This isn't a game to the Johnson.
Wether he has a cheap one he doesn't care about you hacking, a hard one just to keep up appearances, or a honey-pot one, any way you cut it, there is going to be nothing of use for you in there.
And yes, the Johnson CAN live without being connected for a few hours. Turn off your cellphone, or risk the People Who Shoot Babies In The Face in front of you discovering where they can get your family. Hmm, tough choice.
The only issue I see with Mr. J going completely unwired is the 50% upfront payment. He's going to need a live commlink to execute the wire transfer. I think a good solution to that would be to skinlink his commlink. No wireless access at all (not Hidden mode - NO WIRELESS AT ALL. Not the same.) To transfer money, you shake hands with Mr. J. Your skinlink and his skinlink network, opening a link for him to transfer funds. Of course, in that case, it would mean him having certified cred on his commlink. But that's sort of the prefered payment method for runners anyway. If he wants live cred, he will have to open a wifi connection, no way around it.
Of course, if you hack Mr. J's cred uplink and rape his bank account, you may as well just shoot Mr. J in the face and mail him back to pieces to his corp. You're declaring war either way.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Why would a Johnson going to a meet with criminals carry a commlink? If he does, it sure as shit won't have anything remotely interesting in it. He's called Mr. Johnson because he's trying to be anonymous! Don't even make the hacker roll. Tell him he breaks through the firewall 1 defences with no effort and he finds nothing of interest. That'll cut down on your dice rolling. |
Because the commlink has information he WANTS the runners to get ...
The biggest element of Intelligence Agencies are DISinformation........
Yeah, Mr. J is going to have nothing of particular interest on his commlink, assuming he's a pro. He'll probably have a good Firewall, say 4.
No, not Big and Scary. Not 5 or 6, not unless he's Really Important. Why not? The reasons are twofold. First, the BBB implies that there is a leap between Rating 3 software and Rating 4. This mirrors the difference between consumer and professional software modernly. Assuming our Mr. J is from a megacorp (and not, say, a street gang), he's probably worth about a 4, as 5 is getting up there, and 6 is usually reserved for the big stuff (and 7 for the military and Zurich Orbital).
Second, with the way the rules are set up, I don't bother with any node (including Mr. J's) being higher than 4 unless it's backed up with patrolling IC and spiders, preferably in plural. My GM was initially annoyed with the freedom the hacker has in SR4, so the first node I encountered with my hacker (basically the one from the book) had Rating 6 everything. The result: I hacked in slow and came away with copies of a lot of Rating 6 software.
If a node is important, it should have IC and/or spiders patrolling it. Even if it doesn't, an Analyze program can be set to automatically scan, checking out every icon that accesses the commlink ("What's that icon running? Exploit? Uh-oh!").
Another thing that is often overlooked (even by me) is that just because you've found a wireless signal doesn't mean you've managed to turn it into something identifiable. Usually, sure, that's the case, but if the target is running Stealth, it can avoid being accessed or even seen in AR/VR. After all, you need to succeed in a Matrix Perception action to get a Matrix ID, and you can't access nodes without that.
So, yeah. I'd make your typical megacorp Mr. J with a commlink with a device rating 4, Analyze 4, and Stealth 4. Also, I imagine that bank transactions would require a passkey or biometric data, so I wouldn't worry about that happening.
No, not Big and Scary. Not 5 or 6, not unless he's Really Important. Why not? The reasons are twofold. First, the BBB implies that there is a leap between Rating 3 software and Rating 4. This mirrors the difference between consumer and professional software modernly. Assuming our Mr. J is from a megacorp (and not, say, a street gang), he's probably worth about a 4, as 5 is getting up there, and 6 is usually reserved for the big stuff (and 7 for the military and Zurich Orbital).
Second, with the way the rules are set up, I don't bother with any node (including Mr. J's) being higher than 4 unless it's backed up with patrolling IC and spiders, preferably in plural. My GM was initially annoyed with the freedom the hacker has in SR4, so the first node I encountered with my hacker (basically the one from the book) had Rating 6 everything. The result: I hacked in slow and came away with copies of a lot of Rating 6 software.
If a node is important, it should have IC and/or spiders patrolling it. Even if it doesn't, an Analyze program can be set to automatically scan, checking out every icon that accesses the commlink ("What's that icon running? Exploit? Uh-oh!").
Another thing that is often overlooked (even by me) is that just because you've found a wireless signal doesn't mean you've managed to turn it into something identifiable. Usually, sure, that's the case, but if the target is running Stealth, it can avoid being accessed or even seen in AR/VR. After all, you need to succeed in a Matrix Perception action to get a Matrix ID, and you can't access nodes without that.
So, yeah. I'd make your typical megacorp Mr. J with a commlink with a device rating 4, Analyze 4, and Stealth 4. Also, I imagine that bank transactions would require a passkey or biometric data, so I wouldn't worry about that happening.
see SGN abd SGP in my sig.
I think the best way to deal with this problem is in-character, as many people have suggested. Try to hack the commlink, the Johnson leaves immediately. Lead them on false trails, things like that.
Really want to put a stop to it? Use it to screw them over. Let him hack the commlink, go through the motions, and then feed him the entire info about the J. He works for Ares, he's authorized to pay them X, all the specifications of the mission, everything.
Because word on the street has gotten out that the hacker for their team loves to peek, the Saeder-Krupp Johnson fed him completely false info that ends up with them thinking that Ares screwed them on their run against Renraku, but it was SK pulling the strings the entire time.
However, only use that as a plot device. However, it's best honestly to just point out how completely unprofessional it is to do that. It's like the mage casting a mind probe or something like that during the meet. It's just not done.
Or you could remember that these things go both ways...while he's busy hacking the Johnson's commlink, the guy that's been tailing Mr. J to find out what team he's hiring hacks into the PC's commlink and gets all the intel on the PCs.
Basically, in the Shadowrun world, no Johnson would show up to a meet with his real, personal commlink. Those things are cheap enough to be disposable for the Johnson and he could just pick up a cheap rating 1 one at Radio Shack for the meet then toss it once it's over. Even if he did because he was stupid or overconfident, there is no possible way that sort of behavior would be tolerated and that team would get blacklisted in a hurry. The entire team would have a horrible reputation, and they'd only get the crappiest of crappy runs if not flat-out suicide missions because they would be seen as not being able to be trusted with anything more.
The Abstruse One
Really want to put a stop to it? Use it to screw them over. Let him hack the commlink, go through the motions, and then feed him the entire info about the J. He works for Ares, he's authorized to pay them X, all the specifications of the mission, everything.
Because word on the street has gotten out that the hacker for their team loves to peek, the Saeder-Krupp Johnson fed him completely false info that ends up with them thinking that Ares screwed them on their run against Renraku, but it was SK pulling the strings the entire time.
However, only use that as a plot device. However, it's best honestly to just point out how completely unprofessional it is to do that. It's like the mage casting a mind probe or something like that during the meet. It's just not done.
Or you could remember that these things go both ways...while he's busy hacking the Johnson's commlink, the guy that's been tailing Mr. J to find out what team he's hiring hacks into the PC's commlink and gets all the intel on the PCs.
Basically, in the Shadowrun world, no Johnson would show up to a meet with his real, personal commlink. Those things are cheap enough to be disposable for the Johnson and he could just pick up a cheap rating 1 one at Radio Shack for the meet then toss it once it's over. Even if he did because he was stupid or overconfident, there is no possible way that sort of behavior would be tolerated and that team would get blacklisted in a hurry. The entire team would have a horrible reputation, and they'd only get the crappiest of crappy runs if not flat-out suicide missions because they would be seen as not being able to be trusted with anything more.
The Abstruse One
First thing you do is learn the rules back and foreword.
second thing you do is analyze your player and find out his weak spots and I am not just talking about the matrix ones. What about physical, social? Next I would design a very detailed mouse trap that plays perfectly into what he is doing.
Make the johnson have some secret paydata that everyone that is an enemy in your world would kill for. Yeah I know "he's a johnson and wouldnt keep that kind of information on him"....so what Mr.Johnson can be a idiot just like the rest of us. The point is that you use it as an excuse to put the group through hell. Grind it in...make it hard punish the entire group for his fuck ups as well as him...is the DARK future right...don't play kitty cat give them a game. Give them assassins and ninja. Plant explosives under his bed but never kill him. make him hurt so much he'll think its a career and everytime they go through the ringer make one of your NPC's (the nice ones if there are any left) say something like "Man shouldn't of hacked that commlink huh" Drive the point home. If the hacker is hogging the game make the repercussions effect the entire group. Just start hurting them all as long as they are alive and have something out there to look forward to they will have fun.
Drown him in useless crap. Sorry, but a Johnson isn't going to have any of his goodies on his comlink when he meets up with a team of Shadowrunners for the meet because it's just too damn risky for himself, the team and the Johnson's clients. Who says the 'runners or the Johnson were not followed by Corp-Sec or a rival? So let the hacker crack the throw-away comlink that the Johnson buys by the metric ton because there's nothing on there worth a rip.
This is also a great way to see what's really going on in the player's head. If they run into scads of boring crap that has no real in-game value and still insist on cracking the comlinks of everyone they meet then you can tell he's attention-whoring. If they take the hint and look for some cues from you for when to crack out the 15 dice to rape, pillage and burn a system then you know he's just trying to cover the bases and do his job. It's one thing to roll now and again as they troll for comlink access codes to use later or sell on the black market (which my own hacker character, Sabot, does on a regular basis), it's another to sift through endless crap and suck up valuable game time.
Just a trick I've picked up a while ago...
Mark(psycho)Phippps( HAHAHA! )
This is also a great way to see what's really going on in the player's head. If they run into scads of boring crap that has no real in-game value and still insist on cracking the comlinks of everyone they meet then you can tell he's attention-whoring. If they take the hint and look for some cues from you for when to crack out the 15 dice to rape, pillage and burn a system then you know he's just trying to cover the bases and do his job. It's one thing to roll now and again as they troll for comlink access codes to use later or sell on the black market (which my own hacker character, Sabot, does on a regular basis), it's another to sift through endless crap and suck up valuable game time.
Just a trick I've picked up a while ago...
Mark(psycho)Phippps( HAHAHA! )
It can be more amusing if the Johnson has the information of a fierce rival on his COMM-Link and a good Nano-paste mask. Just enough for the Runners to go looking for someone else after he betrays them.
My real issue the actual dice rolling. What If I get into a situation wherein there is an important hacking situation and the game become's "look at the hacker roll for a half hour!"
I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work.
I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work.
That is the reason that many GMs have banned hackers through the previous editions. Hacking may be a staple of cyberpunk, but it is a boring thing in an RPG.
The other way to go with it is to come up with a simpler system that gets it all down to a few dice rolls.
Another thing that you can do is don't let your players lead you when doing hacking. One thing that you can fall into is where the player tells you one thing that they do and you have to tell them the roll. Then they ask something else and you have to make more rolls. Don't let them do that to you.
Ask what they are doing in general, what kind of thing they will go after, etc. Figure out a general time that will take (assuming we are not talking about combat time here) and then move on to another player. Make them wait till they would be finished to let them roll. Then let them make a data search roll and that be it. Use that roll for all of it. Give them an answer to as many questions that they have successes in that roll at most. The number of successes can also tell you if they find the really secret stuff.
If they want to go after more info then make them wait again. Don't let them hog the play time and keep it short. Have single rolls of a particular type cover as much as possible. People are used to the roll for each action and that can drag a hacking part of a game down.
The other way to go with it is to come up with a simpler system that gets it all down to a few dice rolls.
Another thing that you can do is don't let your players lead you when doing hacking. One thing that you can fall into is where the player tells you one thing that they do and you have to tell them the roll. Then they ask something else and you have to make more rolls. Don't let them do that to you.
Ask what they are doing in general, what kind of thing they will go after, etc. Figure out a general time that will take (assuming we are not talking about combat time here) and then move on to another player. Make them wait till they would be finished to let them roll. Then let them make a data search roll and that be it. Use that roll for all of it. Give them an answer to as many questions that they have successes in that roll at most. The number of successes can also tell you if they find the really secret stuff.
If they want to go after more info then make them wait again. Don't let them hog the play time and keep it short. Have single rolls of a particular type cover as much as possible. People are used to the roll for each action and that can drag a hacking part of a game down.
| QUOTE (Jimmy_the_Fixer) |
| I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work. |
If you start with the assumption that you are not trying to simulate TRON you can do some interesting stuff, but it's hard work. A basic assumption would be to assume that somewhere along the line of multiple worldwide DISASTERS caused by crappy OS design and ridiculously poor computer security corporations stopped tolerating crappy, insecure OSs and insecure applications. You should also assume that the brain virus that appears to have made people in SR unable to write encryption more complex than ROT13 never shows up.
You end up being the kind of hacker where the primary target are the people in the corporation, not the computers. So the model becomes Mitnick's "The Art of Deception", not Gibson's "Neuromancer". (Given the Mitnick is a famous and semi-successful criminal hacker and Gibson refused to use computers for years I suspect one might be a more useful source.)
Basically, it would end up that you can't hack most peoples systems without their help, witting or not.
Interesting idea kzt but then you end up with the Face as the hacker. That would be an interesting character, don't get me wrong. I think that it would be better to be able to do things both ways though.
It would be, but it's hard to do such that you either can't hack anything or you can hack everything. At this point we are in mode B, and it's a problem for someone. I suspect that computer hacking will end up requiring skill rather than buying hardware and copying software.
If you knew that any bored 13 years old could steal your ID, make phone calls to your bosses boss as you, and buy stuff using your money if you used a call phone, would you use a cell phone? My guess is that people eventually won't be willing to use systems that allow any bored 13 year old to steal their data and money. And companies will make money by writing OS/software that emphasizes security instead of flashy new features. So hacking a comlink would require getting physical possession of the device, which changes the entire cost/benefit equation.
My guess is that in reality, the human will just about always be the weak element. Humans choose crappy passwords, humans don't like to lock their computer when they step away, they make mistakes in configuration, forget to turn on or of services, and humans don't always remember/want to lock the the laptop/disk drives in the safe at the end of the day like they should. And helpful people who will allow someone who "forgot" their badge to get into the data center.
If you knew that any bored 13 years old could steal your ID, make phone calls to your bosses boss as you, and buy stuff using your money if you used a call phone, would you use a cell phone? My guess is that people eventually won't be willing to use systems that allow any bored 13 year old to steal their data and money. And companies will make money by writing OS/software that emphasizes security instead of flashy new features. So hacking a comlink would require getting physical possession of the device, which changes the entire cost/benefit equation.
My guess is that in reality, the human will just about always be the weak element. Humans choose crappy passwords, humans don't like to lock their computer when they step away, they make mistakes in configuration, forget to turn on or of services, and humans don't always remember/want to lock the the laptop/disk drives in the safe at the end of the day like they should. And helpful people who will allow someone who "forgot" their badge to get into the data center.
Well I agree that the hacking rules shouldn't allow anyone to hack anything all the time. That is a bad part of the rules (actually I like very little of the hacking rules in shadowrun). The problem that I am seeing is that your solution eliminates a character type, a fairly major one. Now I would like to see more alternate path adventures where you can solve the problem in several different ways. I think that there should be a lot more work to provide the kind of social engineering situations in adventures.
I think that fundamentally we need to step back and rework hacking based on the broadest effects as opposed to a series of discrete tasks. Figure out a way of making the game still interesting for the Hacker character but make it so that they are not rolling any more times then any other character. Once we do that then they are just another character type instead of a drain on game time.
I think that fundamentally we need to step back and rework hacking based on the broadest effects as opposed to a series of discrete tasks. Figure out a way of making the game still interesting for the Hacker character but make it so that they are not rolling any more times then any other character. Once we do that then they are just another character type instead of a drain on game time.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| I think that fundamentally we need to step back and rework hacking based on the broadest effects as opposed to a series of discrete tasks. Figure out a way of making the game still interesting for the Hacker character but make it so that they are not rolling any more times then any other character. Once we do that then they are just another character type instead of a drain on game time. |
We've gone to having the hacker as an NPC. He's a GM tool to get us the information we should have, provide electronic security and to chase after information that we decide to research. Without tying up the game very much.
It kind of sucks, but it seems to work better than the alternatives we tried. Our groups end up consisting of mages and physical adepts with some light cyber/bioware.
Redoing the system is a better option in many ways, assuming that you have the time and motivation to do it effectively. And it's a pretty good amount of work, since "how computers work" underlies the game in many ways.
I think that one of the problems IS the part about how computers work. I've done some basic programming but I have the jist of computers enough to have been bothered by the Shadowrun view from the beginning. The cyberpunk writers that started it all knew little to nothing about computers. SR4 tried to update it but it carries too many bad legacy assumptions from the earlier versions. It also has this idea that computers will be moving so fast that it will mainly be computers talking to computers and the hacker is more of a program activator then an innovator.
It seems to me that the designers are caught half way between two ideas. One is the Hacker as a console cowboy which is so basic to cyberpunk. The other is the idea that the matrix moves so fast that really only personas can do anything about another matrix action. I think that they have gotten so caught up in the idea of speed that they have slowed the game down incredibly.
It is more about the hardware and the software then the characters. This causes a chain reaction of not being able to accept anything but the hottest gear and the highest program ratings. It ends up being a situation where only the fact that you have some limitations at character creation justify the existence of anything but the highest rated gear.
I'm not feeling well, I'll try and continue later.
It seems to me that the designers are caught half way between two ideas. One is the Hacker as a console cowboy which is so basic to cyberpunk. The other is the idea that the matrix moves so fast that really only personas can do anything about another matrix action. I think that they have gotten so caught up in the idea of speed that they have slowed the game down incredibly.
It is more about the hardware and the software then the characters. This causes a chain reaction of not being able to accept anything but the hottest gear and the highest program ratings. It ends up being a situation where only the fact that you have some limitations at character creation justify the existence of anything but the highest rated gear.
I'm not feeling well, I'll try and continue later.
| QUOTE |
| My real issue the actual dice rolling. What If I get into a situation wherein there is an important hacking situation and the game become's "look at the hacker roll for a half hour!" |
If its the time issue, then politely explain to the player that even though hacking is supposed to be a super quick speed of thought thing there are other players and while he is hacking you are going to take turns. I know its stretching the world but as soon as he is hogging up game time then im sure he'll see the light and be patient and wait his turn.
Now as far as him hacking everything he see's and getting by it, well then i suggest you put on the chaotic evil, helm whenever it comes to anything even remotely matrix related. Think about it, the world of 2070 is rife with computer related espionage. Its seen two crashes, AI trying to take over the world, deckers that create virus's that kill massive amounts of people, otaku(now technomancers) blatantly ignoring the laws of science and abusing systems left and right. I would think that anyone even relatively knowledgable about computers would have security measures up the wazoo. Make hacking hard not just because you are mean but just because it shouldn't be easy. Anytime a hacker rests on his laurels and relies solely on his commlink and programs then hit him with wammee after wammee. If he doesn't approach his hacking with every amount of thought the face approaches people or the sammie destroys things with then take that as an excuse to be a bastard. Throw data bomb, agents equipped with all sorts of attack, black hammer, tracking and armor at him. Have Matrix police actually rear their head (remember commlinks just like houses can have alarms that call the cops) If he doesn't wipe his datatrail have RL cops kicking down his door. HAVE OTHER HACKERS HACK THE SHIT OUT OF HIM!!!! he isn't the only stooge with a CmLk and programs. Be wrong be ugly be mean...but play by the rules when your doing it. Most of all be realistic just extremely realistic if you know what I mean. These characters are living in an age of paranoia, no matter where you go their is a camera watching everything you do, eat, sleep...you name it. It makes sense that people would be just as paranoid about the computers they use because they are living in an ultra information age.
| QUOTE (Jimmy_the_Fixer) |
| My real issue the actual dice rolling. What If I get into a situation wherein there is an important hacking situation and the game become's "look at the hacker roll for a half hour!" I agree that I should put more effort into the specific Jhonsons, but I need a more streamlined hacking system, one that doesn't require too much work. |
That just doesn't happen for me. Could you describe a bit more what's going on in this half hour?
If they're hacking an easyish thing buying hits on EW and decrypt takes you straight to exploit. you roll for detection. once in at admin it's pretty trivial.
If they're hacking a mainframe and the spotlight is on them either their stealth holds and they find/defuse the databomb or they don't and they have to work fast before they're swarmed (remember a corp can call in spiders from all over, and deploy IC from other systems)
If they want to hack a bunch of easy things, as may come up, I strongly suggest using agents.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| If you knew that any bored 13 years old could steal your ID, make phone calls to your bosses boss as you, and buy stuff using your money if you used a call phone, would you use a cell phone? |
one thing about that scenario is that today the punishment for said crime on a minor would be minimal at best. but in SR said crime can be quite harsh indeed
as in, today computer crime is a kind of paper crime. if you get caught there is jail sure, but the actual crime itself is near risk free. no guards that will shoot at you and similar. but in SR there are IC that can and will blast you offline at best if you mess up, and on higher end targets they can even kill you. that ups the risk factor quite a bit.
so, have some high end news items that talk about a hacker found dead after trying to hack some high security node, and present it as if its a hardend criminal getting his dues.
today we kinda laugh at the image of armed FBI storing a room where a guy sits at his desk typing at a keyboard, as if its a full on overreaction from the FBI side.
sadly the crime rating table that was in older SR version do not appear in SR4 iirc. in those i belive that a cyberdeck or some kinds of software was in the same area as weapons smuggling...
hell, recall the troubles one guy got about releasing PGP online (pretty good privacy, a email encryption program)? at the time, the US government looked at any encryption above a X bit keylength as military weapons.
what if that way of thinking have been maintained in SR? also, now one can have roving agents armed with hardware burning code (it didnt show up in the main book, but im 99% sure it will in unwired, its to much of a SR feature not to) that could turn any node it finds that have military grade encryption code up for grabs into some very expensive junk. who would then risk it? like i said above, today computer crime is seen as near risk free, maybe even some kind of mental extreme sport for some (kinda like breaking into a building to go skydiving of its roof).
btw, the encryption description in SR4 talk about some variant having embedded IC as a second line of defense. to me that sounds like encryption going from being the bunker walls to being the chain link fence, with guards and paracritters behind it.
as in, even if you copy a encrypted file, IC comes with it. and when you try to decrypt it, the IC spawns and attacks you. and as its inside the encryption, it will just spawn again if you crash it or similar. and what if said IC carry black hammer? would you risk it?
i have long held the idea that every file in SR contains some kind of executable code. as in, there are no pure datafiles in SR. at least they come with some kind of reader program.
oh, and what kind of equipment do you expect a bored 13 year old to pack? 6 across the board? highly unlikely given that miracle shooter is said to not leave much workload on a comlink. and with VR, everpresent net and most likely more MMO games then you can shake a troll at, how would any 13 year old get bored in the first place?
Yes but then you are creating in game reasons to compensate for a game mechanic problem. That is like having a wagon wheel on a race car and instead of fixing it you make up a long tradition about it!
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 3 2007, 01:32 PM) |
| That just doesn't happen for me. Could you describe a bit more what's going on in this half hour? |
basically what happens is he declares"I dun gonna hack this thing!" he then rolls dice. I say "what, why, to what end?" he then sits and thinks about what it is he's going in there for... this takes a few minutes, and the rest of the players are silent. no one does anything. or says anything. they wanna wait for the hacker to go for his dice rolling record. (he always refuses to buy hits, seeing his odds as much better when he just rolls, so the mechanic is totally ignored by the entire group.)
So he tries to hack whatever it is (useually a commlink), there is a few rolls back and forth (him trying to hack, the resisstance rolls, etc.) he gets in, runs a search program (he rolls, I roll to detect) he finds it, I figure out what it is he found (this was our first session and I didn't figure all his legwork was going to revolve around each Jhonson they met.)
so he gets his thing. this is constant and takes forever. Then, when they are about to go on a run, he then (finally) does legwork related to the actual run. More silence on the part of the group. Then a series of hacking rolls, resistance rolls, detection rolls, program rolls, combat rolls, rolls to remove his datatrail = minimul info because he has no clue as to what he's looking for!
it wouldn't be a problem if he said "I want maps, security layout, gaurd numbers/equipment, and security shift times." but no, it's always him sitting there, dice in hand, going "uhhh, I dunno, info." so I wasn't real sure what to give them, and so I just showed the map I had drawn, and told them the basic security they had going. This took up the bulk of the session, they spent hours just talking to Jhonsons and waiting for the hacker.
that's really more of a player problem than a game problem. if you're spending that much time waiting for him to figure out what he's looking for, then just leave him sitting there scratching his head while the rest of you go on with the rest of the game. don't let him search unless he says what he's looking for--"i dunno, info" does not cut it. you can't just open up Google and find answers--you have to actually type things into the search field first.
I agree, you have to set a limit. IMO, dead air in a game is just as bad as dead air on a TV show; you don't want to lose the momentum. Anyone says "duhhhh.......I'm not sure...." in my game and I tell them they can either stand still/follow the others or do some relatively basic useful thing. For a hacker that would be scan for hidden nodes or communication, a mage astrally perceive, samurai make a perception test, etc. Something their character would be expected to do when not doing anything else.
If they complain, talk with them out of the game. Inform them they can't disrupt the game flow and if playing a hacker is a problem, perhaps you can find something more to their liking, like a gun bunny. Suggest they make up a cheat sheet for themselves with the common hacking tasks and when they should be done so that if they have a brain fart they can pick something useful off the list.
If they complain, talk with them out of the game. Inform them they can't disrupt the game flow and if playing a hacker is a problem, perhaps you can find something more to their liking, like a gun bunny. Suggest they make up a cheat sheet for themselves with the common hacking tasks and when they should be done so that if they have a brain fart they can pick something useful off the list.
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| If they complain, talk with them out of the game. Inform them they can't disrupt the game flow and if playing a hacker is a problem, perhaps you can find something more to their liking, like a gun bunny. Suggest they make up a cheat sheet for themselves with the common hacking tasks and when they should be done so that if they have a brain fart they can pick something useful off the list. |
me like much
Yeah, I'd have to agree this is a player problem...and a bit of an inexperienced GM. While the hacker in our group likes to "just hack things", we do that on his downtime. In game, (or in a situation like what you describe), if I don't already have an idea of why he is hacking a comm, I ask. If he doesn't know, then I tell him to let me know when he does know and we move on.
Actually, a non-hacking PC in our last session wanted to upload a video he recorded to a "youtube" site. He first asked me what program he would need to upload data. Then started looking at skills. I quickly asked what are you trying to do and he told me. We resolved that by a single Computer+Edit roll. He got two successes and we moved on.
Now, had I not asked this question, we may have gone down a roll of him trying to access different public nodes in VR, do a lot more rolls and really bog down the game. Instead, it was one roll...heck, he could have done this in VR, but to the game, the point was he wanted a video uploaded, didn't matter how it happened.
Hacker wants some "info" from MrJ? Find out what he is looking for first. If you don't have anything planned out, don't just give him anything. Let him gain access and to a data search for something specific, and then tell him he finds nothing...that should be pretty quick.
Actually, a non-hacking PC in our last session wanted to upload a video he recorded to a "youtube" site. He first asked me what program he would need to upload data. Then started looking at skills. I quickly asked what are you trying to do and he told me. We resolved that by a single Computer+Edit roll. He got two successes and we moved on.
Now, had I not asked this question, we may have gone down a roll of him trying to access different public nodes in VR, do a lot more rolls and really bog down the game. Instead, it was one roll...heck, he could have done this in VR, but to the game, the point was he wanted a video uploaded, didn't matter how it happened.
Hacker wants some "info" from MrJ? Find out what he is looking for first. If you don't have anything planned out, don't just give him anything. Let him gain access and to a data search for something specific, and then tell him he finds nothing...that should be pretty quick.
it really sounds like the player just wants to hack. which shouldn't be surprising--he's playing a full-on hacker. i really, really suggest sitting down with him solo and letting him hack, one-on-one with the GM, for several hours. that way, he gets some of it out of his system, and more importantly, it gives the GM a chance to get a much stronger grasp of the rules.
Another way to speed things up is, if you know that he could succeed by buying hits, don't ask him if he wants to roll or buy hits, just tell him he gets in.
And if you don't want him to get in, don't forget you can justifiably add +6 to the hacking threshold for anything that only has an admin account. It's been debated before, but as GM you could easily declare that hacking anyone's commlink faces the +6 admin account modifier. Mr. Johnson's commlink is designed for security, and with that +6 on top, if he can hack that on the fly without tripping an alarm, then he deserves it. And if he does trip an alarm which results in some social rolls trying to convince Mr. J not to walk and ends with them taking a severe pay cut, then maybe he'll think before he hacks next time.
Also, if he's saying "uhhhhh, info", I would absolutely let him roll. And I would give him a hefty dice penalty (-4?) for such vague search parameters, and I would tell him why.
As always YMMV.
And if you don't want him to get in, don't forget you can justifiably add +6 to the hacking threshold for anything that only has an admin account. It's been debated before, but as GM you could easily declare that hacking anyone's commlink faces the +6 admin account modifier. Mr. Johnson's commlink is designed for security, and with that +6 on top, if he can hack that on the fly without tripping an alarm, then he deserves it. And if he does trip an alarm which results in some social rolls trying to convince Mr. J not to walk and ends with them taking a severe pay cut, then maybe he'll think before he hacks next time.
Also, if he's saying "uhhhhh, info", I would absolutely let him roll. And I would give him a hefty dice penalty (-4?) for such vague search parameters, and I would tell him why.
As always YMMV.
it also sounds like doing legwork is done as hacking target after target.
doing online legwork is what the data search is made for.
and as he dont specify, make him do the whole matrix for some obscure info (12+ successes iirc) and then just count the number of rolls he makes. as i think its one hour or more pr roll on that, he may not come up with much
doing online legwork is what the data search is made for.
and as he dont specify, make him do the whole matrix for some obscure info (12+ successes iirc) and then just count the number of rolls he makes. as i think its one hour or more pr roll on that, he may not come up with much
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| it also sounds like doing legwork is done as hacking target after target. doing online legwork is what the data search is made for. and as he dont specify, make him do the whole matrix for some obscure info (12+ successes iirc) and then just count the number of rolls he makes. as i think its one hour or more pr roll on that, he may not come up with much |
If by "one hour" you mean "one minute," then you're right. =i)
going by memory, but i was damn sure those rolls had a longer time frame then one min. crap...
per hour WOULD shut that player up!
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