 The rules of family in the shadows, Professionalism |
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 Jun 5 2007, 09:30 PM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
it seems codified because it's a very simple set of ideas that have been written down. nothing as uncomplicated as this could possibly be written down succinctly without appearing codified. runners are not all that diverse or mistrustful. running is too widespread, too common an occupation for there to be large degrees of difference between how different groups do it. sure, there will be outliers, but there are enough runners in the business to form reliable bell curves off their behaviors. the extent that they are diverse and mistrustful is why such behaviors would become commonplace. there's got to be some sort of basic assumptions runners can make about each other in order for them to be able to work together, or nothing will ever get done because everybody will be spending too much time watching their own back. if killing each others' families were common, then the runner subculture would be a warzone where runners spend more time on vendettas than doing any work. |
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Jun 6 2007, 12:25 AM
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#27
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Yep. As soon as you do something foul to someones family, all rules go out the window. Example? Well you all saw the Punisher Movie. You killed my wife and child (Im ignoring the rest, as it was overkill for this situation). I now have full motive and justification to mow down you and everyone you know in a hail of bullets. Mr. Johnson decides he wants to use his runners good friend as leverage (in this case a L3 contact). I would expect a hired killer to go do legwork out the ass, call in favors, grease palms, and do something less then plesent. Preferable after doing the job, and getting paid Im currently waiting for one of my players to get into her PC enough, and Ill give this situation a whirl. This post has been edited by Lindt: Jun 6 2007, 12:28 AM |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:23 AM
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#28
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
And I disagree because for the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' to have any meaning whatsoever its necessary its usage has to be recognized by an outsider to the situation at hand, otherwise the Shadow Comunity as a whole, never mind John isn't very bloody likely to accept that the note stapled to his dead wife's forehead claiming that she was tortured and killed in responce to something that Jack did should increase Tom's Street Cred as well as render him immune to further attack. And it is very possible to write down the uncodified and far less complicated attitudes that the majority of Shadowrunners most probably do follow when it comes to families. "You fuck with mine, I fuck with yours." ... or ... "Chummer, you don't mess with families, its bad for biz." ... or ... "You stupid Slitch, that was his Grandmother, do you have any idea what I'd do to someone who did that to my Grams?" The problem is that the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' tries to go a step further with the claim that if John hits my wife and knocks out a tooth then I can hit his wife provided that I'm careful to only knock out her tooth and not break her fragging jaw. (In fact it seems that I'm in danger of losing 'Face' if I don't.) If Tom manages to blow up my sister's car then I
Not all that diverse or distrustful ... EXCUSE ME? Remember first of all that the runners are at the fringes of society, and second of all that they live in a world where its the 'prevailing wisdom' that every tenth employer is going to try to either cheat or kill them. Doesn't sound like a very good receipe to produce trust and comformity to me. If you want those qualities then you sell your soul and become a wageslave.
And I agree completely with this sentiment, the problem is that unless you believe that the Shadow Comunity as a whole is made up of hidebound men & women who are consistantly worried about losing 'Face' and who value their 'Honor' more then their loved ones then following the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' will spiral into exactly the Hatfield & Macoy warzone you've described. Hmm, the more I think about it, 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' sounds like something that might actually work in a Triad-type community where people actually do consider ritual sucide when they fail and have no qualms about being bond to an Oath that really does kill you if you break it. |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:50 AM
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#29
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the problem is, you're assuming that the rules are exceedingly strict and literal--that every runner who follows these rules will always choose the same response to the same stimuli, and that every runner will view every response in the same light. rule 2 is that if someone does something to your family, you have to pay it back in equal measure. if i blow up your sister's Jaguar, you might choose to blow up my sister's junker if you feel that's equal. if you don't, you might choose to blow up my sister's house. if my sister doesn't have a house, or anything else of strong value, you might choose to blow up something of my mother's (rule 3). some runners might view such a response as fair; others might think it's overboard.
and yet they manage to work together frequently, and frequently successfully. which means that, to a large degree, there is a certain amount of basic trust that runners extend to each other. if you and some random runner you've never heard of show up for a meet, you do your job and you walk away--you don't spend three weeks researching the other runner's background trying to determine if he's a 'Star plant or something.
only if you assume that they follow it in a hidebound manner. you're thinking of them as rules in a rulebook, which they aren't. they're guiding principles. |
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Jun 7 2007, 04:37 AM
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#30
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Ok, so if I decided that blowing up your sister's house in responce to you blowing up my sister's car was the 'equal injury' demanded under the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' then you'd be ok with that and not decide that I'd just escalated the conflict and respond in kind? How does 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' work when it's Ravor and mfb the Dumpshockers turned-Shadowrunner and our families involved instead of the fictionized John, Tom, and Jack? Because unless you assume that 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' has an accepted and widely adopted idea of exactly what 'Equal Injury' means then the entire concept is a waste because what you view as 'equal injury' towards my family I view as escalating the conflict and am now required to respond in kind which according to 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' you are to take as a further attack and must also respond in kind. And you've just stated that the Shadow Comunity as a whole will probably be divided on the issue as who is right so can you explain how following or not following 'the code' can result in the lost of 'Face'?
No, but you also don't use your real name, allow him to visit your real apartment or talk about your real family either. And unless the runner is being vouched for by someone that you know and have worked with in the past then yes you do whatever digging you can before the run and watch your back because you don't know if the runner is 'cool under fire' and a 'level head you can count on to get your back' or a Glitch who likes slotting 'Red Fury BTLs' before entering the facility. |
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Jun 7 2007, 05:06 AM
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#31
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if i blew up your car, i wouldn't be okay with you in the first place--i'd have already discarded the code. even without strict ideas about equality, the code still serves its purpose. it's not as effective at keeping things impersonal as a strict code would be, of course, but it still serves to limit the spread and severity of such fueds. those water-filled barrels on the side of the road aren't going to stop your car, if you careen wildy into them--but they'll slow you down, maybe enough so that you don't get killed when your car slams into the treeline beyond.
again, it's not strict. some runners and fixers will be okay with what you did. others--maybe even the majority, depending on the specific situation and your previous rep--might take a dimmer view.
granted. but assuming your quick legwork doesn't turn up anything, you proceed on the assumption that the guy's probably reliable. you don't trust him implicitly, but you don't distrust him implicitly either. again, you keep viewing the whole thing as being strict and rigid. it's not. it's not a wall that strongly defines behaviors, it's a buffer zone--a guideline. |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:25 AM
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#32
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Mmmm, I more or less agree, although I'd say that until the new guy 'proved' himself that you would limit your "suspension of distrust" only as far as necessary to pull off the run at hand, trust should not come cheaply in the Shadows and a "True Chummer" should be as rare and as valuable as all the treasure in Lowfer's Lair.
Maybe, maybe not, it all depends on why you blew up the car in the first place. After all, every Jane Wageslave that you use as a hostage/bodyshield when everything goes to hell is someone's sister, in this case she just happened to be mine. (After, why should I love my sister any less then the local Mob Boss would in the same situation?)
You see, I disagree, because what this code does is drag more people into the conflict then would probably otherwise been involved. Without such a code, yeah I may declare all-out war on you and your loved ones if for whatever reason you harmed/killed one of my loved ones. BUT I wouldn't be as likely to drag in the families of your chummers unless they of course were directly involved. ... Or I may simply settle for your head mounted on a pike, after all your family never did anything to me. ... Or after one too many BTLs I may suffer a mental break and decide that I'm going to kill your very memory by geeking everyone that you've ever known. ... Or I may cry for awhile and get on with my life, after all, very few people haven't lost a loved one in the Sixth World. But if our war managed to spin to the point where it actually started making ripples in the Shadow Community and started making life tougher for everyone, then I'd imagine that both of us would be geeked as a lesson to everyone else not to cause trouble. I am assuming of course roughly equal Street Reps, ect, if one of us were liked better then the other then he'd probably survive although with a tarnished rep. ----- However with 'The Shadow-Warrior's ... Or one of us may say "Frag the Code!" and go with one of the scenerios I described under what would be likely to happen without a code. So even if I were to believe that 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' was originally meant to be taken as fuzzy Guidelines and not as Rules once you add in the fact that not even hyzmarca believes that everyone will follow the "Code" when it tells you to go tit-for-tat (If I remember the quote, it was "many would, but many wouldn't".) the only real difference between the existance of the Code or not is how the Shadow Community would react to to a couple of Runners pissing into the waters. And you'd be very hard pressed to prove that the Shadow Community would care more about 'Honor' then 'Mercenary Self Interest' when deciding whoes rep to trash. As for the Code's Virtues ... wel; - It doesn't provide protection to 'innocent' bystanders, in fact it encourages you to target them to punish your 'real target'. - It expects the 'innocent' bystanders to accept their loses with grace because the damage was done 'With Honor'. - It assumes that the Shadow Community by-and-large is more concerned about 'Honor' then 'Self Interest' when deciding whoes Rep is damaged and whoes isn't. So tell me exactly how 'The Shadow-Warrior's |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:47 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm not sure about trust, but Shadowrunners probably aren't that diverse--a subculture numbering ~250 in a city as big as Seattle probably only has so much diversity.
~J |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:53 PM
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#34
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well I guess I must be looking at diversity slightly differently then, sure there may only be between 200-300 "Pro Runners" active in Seattle at any given time, but they are drawn from the much larger pool of wannabes and other Fringe Types.
Someone who grew up as a Barren Rat isn't likely to hold the same views of 'Honor' and Family as an ex-Wildcat, or a Hunted Tir Assassin, or a Burnt Corp Man, ect, ect... The 'Shadow Community' isn't diverse because of its numbers, it is diverse because of the individuals who make up its ranks. |
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Jun 7 2007, 04:17 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062 |
I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. If a person is going to put themselves into a position where they're putting their life in someone elses hands on as regular a basis as a Shadowrunner does, they're going to have to trust and be trusted; for that they need to be a team player. A certain level of paranoia comes with the territory, but at the end of the day the fixer wants to get paid as well and he's not going to bring people together who can't work as a team. It's not even about your checks coming up with dirt, the fixer is going to make far more stringent checks of his own. Anyone who doesn't play by The Rules™ simply isn't going to get the chance to make it as a runner, because the Fixer or Mr Johnson don't want someone in the team who wont get along and play ball. |
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Jun 7 2007, 05:03 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
their self-interest coincides with the concept of honor as it relates to killing family members. someone who breaks the code in the eyes of the general runner populace is going to find himself out of a job, because the general runner populace will worry that someone who broke the code once might do so again. most runners probably wouldn't call it 'honor' or say that they follow a 'code', per se. they would say that they don't mess with each others' families because they don't want their own familes messed with. they would say that if someone did mess with their family, then repayment will be made in kind--partly for the sake of revenge, and partly because someone who can't protect/avenge their family probably isn't worth hiring. and they'd say they won't work with a family-killer, because a guy who'd do that is too dangerous to trust. |
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Jun 7 2007, 05:29 PM
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#37
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Darkest Angel I guess I'm not quite sure where we disagree, having diverse backgrounds and views doesn't necessarily render you 'not a team player', and I agree that most of the time it is in the Fixer's best interests to ensure that that the team he puts together is capable enough to keep Johnson happy. But remember that Fixers are still street scum, they make mistakes, play favorites, can be bribed, and in the end, their dreams and desires are easily worth destroying the lives of your entire team and your loved ones if they think that the payoff is worth the probable cost. ... However if you were referring to Fixers ensuring that people adopt 'The Shadow-Warrior's *Edit*
But yet they aren't worried about what someone who actually believes in following the code might do? And once again you are assuming that the General Shadow Community will largely come to an agreement on what really happened and who had 'Honor' on their side vs who didn't. If that is the case then things like Dealing with a Dragon, Betrayal, or Hunted would also be Blacklisting Offenses instead of merely hurting a Runner's Rep.
Yeah, and I've never had a problem with Rule One, I imagine that it is a widespread shared attitude amongst many Runners.
Meh ... If I didn't still see the echoes of 'equal injury' with the 'Honor Debt' being paid afterward that is clearly part of "The Shadow-Warrior's But we've already explored the fact that 'equal injury' or as you've put it 'payment in kind' isn't a useful measurement because quite simply the people involved won't be able to objectively agree when the 'debt' has been met.
Maybe, maybe not, it surely wouldn't be good for the Runner's Rep, but considering the things which the Shadows are willing to take in stride it wouldn't be a career killer either. And besides, this isn't really part of the 'code' anyways. However, it is interesting that you've only used Rules 1 & 2 of 'The Shadow-Warrior's Or how about the precious gem known as Rule Four? After all, by declaring Rule Four the fact that a Runner is a known 'family killer' isn't even supposed to be held against his Rep and in fact might enhance it. |
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Jun 7 2007, 06:23 PM
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#38
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Plus, that population is comprised of probably, what, 75% hot elf lesbians? :D |
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Jun 7 2007, 06:26 PM
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#39
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Naw, its 75% hot elf lesbian stripper ninjas. :cyber:
*Edit* And the other 25% is made up of dikoted Ally Spirits... :cyber: |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:23 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no moreso than they're worried that some runner might betray them in the middle of a run--which is to say, it's a concern, and you take measures to prevent it where possible, but it's not something you really expect to happen.
yes, i do assume that a group of people who communicate frequently and freely will come to a general consensus on many issues. there will be outliers, there will be vocal dissenters, but there will be a majority opinion because that's how communities tend to work. you're also blowing things out of proportion. just because someone broke the rules doesn't mean the entire community will shun them forever. it means that many members of the community will take that breach into account in their future dealings with the offender. they might be less inclinded to make a good deal, do a favor, or cut any slack for the offender. nobody said that someone who breaks the rules on families will be blacklisted for all eternity.
that's on them. they have to try to think about it objectively, try to figure out what level of response they would view as appropriate if it were someone else whose family had been attacked. they have to hope the level of response they choose is viewed by a majority of other runners as being appropriate. if they decide not to think about it objectively, if they decide to just go fangs-out and destroy the offending runner's life, then the community will remember that.
actually, i did describe rule 3. i said "payment in kind". that includes substitution, if necessary. as for rule four--most runners wouldn't want to work with anyone linked to a family-killer, either. the stigma is less than working with the family-killer himself, but it's still there. Winston, in the original example, got what he deserved for working with a guy who'd make unprovoked assaults on a man's family. it sucks for Winston, sure, but that's life. |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:41 PM
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#41
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Personally, I don't believe there will be such a code simply because I believe a sufficiently large portion of the shadow community won't benefit from it (no significant family, close friends, etc. outside the shadow community) to result in the unreliability of the code to the point of uselessness.
I'll have to review my novels and older sourcebooks, though--did Hatchetman and Kid Stealth have anyone outside the shadows who they'd worry about? ~J |
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Jun 7 2007, 08:06 PM
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#42
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Rule 4 is meant to express the fact that holding a runner's loved one hostage has much more serious consequences to the runner than just maiming or killing a runner's loved one does. A hostage situation doesn't just hurt one runner, it potentially harms his entire team, his Johnson, his Fixer, and his mission. So long as a loved one is held hostage the hostage taker could potentially make any demand and such demands usually do not bode well for anyone involved with the compromised runner. Short of suicide or allowing the loved-one to come to harm, the only solution is to retrieve the hostage with the utmost efficiency.
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Jun 7 2007, 08:20 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
granted that many players choose the unattached life for their characters, i don't see that being the case for the majority of runners. very few twenty-somethings manage to end up completely familyless--even if they're perpetually single, they've still got parents, siblings, cousins, etcetera. and i don't think the desire to mate fades when somebody ends up living outside the law; runners are prone to date, and even form long-term relationships, as anyone else. further, this has implications outside the runner community. this is how runners treat their non-runner associates--company men, organized crime, and so on. it might not necessarily be reciprocated... but then again it might; company men have families, too. |
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Jun 7 2007, 08:26 PM
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We've got a very small community that disproportionately attracts the antisocial and the isolated--those lacking the desire or the ability to form or maintain successful long-term relationships. Very few twenty-somethings manage to end up completely familyless (though for our purposes note that having estranged family is equivalent), but even fewer end up shadowrunners--selection bias could easily result in the former constituting a large percentage of the latter.
Also, the protection is compromised by not applying to how the outside community treats shadowrunners--your code isn't going to help you against corporate hit squads or organized crime, both of whom are probably far more likely threats than fellow shadowrunners. ~J |
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Jun 8 2007, 07:09 PM
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#45
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Am I now?
As for 'The Shadow-Warrior's |
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Jun 8 2007, 07:39 PM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i would really suggest you cut back on the attitude a bit. you're still treating these like hard-and-fast rules that everyone follows all the time. yes, any runner you ask would say they wouldn't work with a family-killer. yeah, the intent is that family-killers get blacklisted. but reality is more complex than that. if someone involves other peoples' families frequently, they actually might get blacklisted by the runner community at large. if they do it once, though? if they do it to someone who everybody agrees is a real asshole? reactions will be less extreme.
i'm not sure about that. involving families makes things personal, and making things personal gets in the way of making money.
the only person to mention honor debts, in this thread, is you. no wonder you disagree with these--you keep trying to force them to be something they're not, so you can disagree with them. i view these rules as organic. they weren't created and stamped onto the runner community from the top down, they grew up from long, hard learning experience. |
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Jun 10 2007, 08:18 AM
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#47
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
And I would really suggest that you not try to claim that something was never written when it was indeed clearly written, including by you. (Now if you want to say that you didn't really mean it then that's fine, I'll accept that you misspoke before.)
No, what I am pointing out however is what happens when the code is followed as it was clearly intended to be in hyzmarca's write-up of it. And the very fact that your only defense to me pointing out that it is broken happens to be, "Well people don't really follow it." is rather ... telling of the code's weakness.
*Falls out of Chair* Example A A slugs B's wife, breaking her jaw. B happens to subscribe to and believe in 'The Shadow-Warrior's
... in order to live up to the code which is supposedly widely adopted and believed in by Shadowrunners B now has to hunt down A's wofe and break her jaw. If A had instead blown up her car, killed her pet, or given her an STD then B would instead "have the obligation" to do that to A's wife instead of breaking her jaw. Example B A kills B's sister and mails him her head. B looks towards Example A to see what he'd have to do in order to live up to the code which he has adopted and actually believes in. However, there is a small problem, A is 'an only child'. Now what? Well luckly for B, 'The Shadow-Warrior's
... and that answer happens to be to kill and mail C his sister's head in order to punish A. And of course if C doesn't accept his sister's murder as being the proper course of action for B to take then he isn't living up to this code which is supposedly widely adopted by Shadowrunner's of all stripes. So how exactly is 'The Shadow-Warrior's
Ok so you actually believe that 'The Shadow-Warrior's Oh wait, I forgot, although 'The Shadow-Warrior's <><><><><> The short of it is if 'The Shadow-Warrior's |
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Jun 10 2007, 04:41 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
there are some subjects that i'm more than willing to get worked up over. maybe even a lot of subjects. this isn't one of them. Ravor, you want to get bitchy at someone about this, it's going to have to be someone else.
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Jun 11 2007, 04:22 AM
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#49
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
But you see, it is supposed to have the potential to degenerate very quickly. The policy is basically a form of MAD.
If the USSR launches nukes at us we'll launch them in retaliation. This is, of course, an insane policy. The USSR will launch more nuke and we'll launch more nukes and eventually everybody dies. The entire point is that, because it is such a mess, no one will dare to take the first step and people who are crazy enough to take the first step will be shot by their teammates. |
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Jun 11 2007, 06:52 AM
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#50
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
And one of my reactions throughout the entire thread has been; "MAD is going to happen reguardless of whether the code is in force or not once families start to get targeted."
You see if the Runner Community as a whole is going to adopt and follow any Honor Code then it has to offer them something better then what would otherwise happen without such a Honor Code, and I haven't seen where adopting 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' beyond Rule One would have benefits for any of my characters. |
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