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hyzmarca
Shadowrunners are people and people have needs that must be met. Among these needs are companionship and the propagation on one's genes. Thus, many shadowrunners have families, or at least try. While quite a few choose to wait until "retirement" to start their families many in the shadows understand that "retirement" from the shadows is a mythological concept that was never actually real. These people, instead, use their downtime to cultivate familial relationships.

Because of the general importance of family as well as the general vulnerability of civilian family members, there is a set of unwritten rules that is generally adhered to by shadow professionals on all sides, government, freelance, corporate, and criminal alike. Because of the global multi-cultural nature of the shadow community, it is impossible to fully codify all of the subtle nuances that exist between the different subsets to shadow warriors but this document attempts to provide a set of general guidelines for shadow warriors with families and shadow warriors who must deal with the families of others.

Rule 1: The Golden Rule.
Never, ever, mess with a fellow shadow warrior's civilian family. It doesn't matter who you are or who you work for, this is the golden rule which must never be broken. It may be tempting to use kidnap an enemy's family members as leverage or hurt them to punish the enemy, but just don't do it. It is unprofessional.

Rule 2: The Rule of Equity.
If one shadow warrior injures a family member of another shadow warrior in any way, the aggrieved warrior and his allies have the obligation to inflict an equal injury upon a member of the perpetrator's family, parent for parent, sibling for sibling, spouse for spouse, child for child.

For example: John Doe Fed-Ex's the severed head of Brad Pitt's wife to him. Brad Pitt and his partner are now obliged to decapitate John Doe's wife and fed-ex her head to him.

Rule 3: The Substitution Rule.
Not every shadow warrior has every possibly family member. If the perpetrator lacks the appropriate familial relation for an equitable retaliation, then the aggrieved shadow warrior is obliged to retaliate against the family of one of his associates, with the closest associates being preferred. This rule exists to ensure that no one willingly works with a family-killer.

Example: John Doe doesn't have a wife, but his dry cleaner does. Because Jon Doe is a loner with no associates closer than his Dry Cleaner, the Dry cleaner receives his wife's severed head in a fed-ex box along with a note clearly stating that this decapitation was retaliated for John Doe's actions.

Rule 4: The Kidnapping Rule.
The kidnapping of a civilian family member is the single most dangerous situation for a shadow warrior. So long as the loved-one is held hostage, the shadow warrior can be forced to do anything. For this reason, the kidnapping of a family member fully nullifies rule 1 in relation to the kidnapper and all of his associates.

Example: Raver and Scorcher and rival Shadowrunners working for opposing interests after the same target. Raver, being both greedy and crazy, kidnap's Scorcher's girlfriend and promises to kill her if Scorcher doesn't give up the job.

Scorcher knows that Winston is Raver's fixer and that he'd know where Raver's safe-house is. Winston is a family man with a lovely wife and a three-month-old. Scorcher, being pissed off, scared, and in desperate need of information, breaks into Winston's home, rapes his wife in front of him, and cuts off the baby's toes with a pair of pruning sheers one-by-one while threatening to do far worse.
This is fully permissible and Winston does not have the professional right to retaliate though he might choose to do so, anyway, such an action would make him lose a great deal of face and give him a bad reputation even if it doesn't invite further retaliation.

======================================================
Section 2: Keeping your Civilian Family Safe

While the Golden Rule and associated Rules of Retaliation greatly reduce the prevalence of attacks on civilian family members, family remains a very tempting target for those who lack honor and professionalism. This section is intended to provide Shadow Warriors with tips for keeping their civilian family members safe.

What happens in the shadows should stay in the shadows.
Many people talk about their work days with their families. Shadow Warriors should never do this. The more information your family has the more tempting and vulnerable they are. Shadow Warriors deal with some very powerful and dangerous entities and a single misspoken word at school, the supermarket, or anywhere else could bring the full might of some very powerful and dangerous entities crashing down on their heads. Furthermore, if your family members have information then they become intelligence assets, subject to capture and torture by these entities. Sharing information with your civilian family members puts not only them at risk, but you as well.

Teach them to kill
The inability to defend themselves in battle is the greatest vulnerability faced by civilian family members. As a Shadow Warrior, your profession naturally attracts violence and death. There may be times when the most vulnerable members of your family must choose between killing or being killed. It is your responsibility to be sure that they are both willing and able to choose the former.
Make sure that your family members always carry firearms and know how to use them. Take them to shooting ranges and use VR simulations to drill them until they are skilled marksmen. Use realistic targets to desensitize them from killing. If possible, have them actually kill real living people to be sure that they can do so.Use simulated combat to teach them the importance of cover and live fire exercises to teach them to be cool under stress. Make sure that they know to always kill and always finish off a wounded assailant.

With children, start VR combat training immediately after birth and give them real firearms as soon as they are able to understand the concept of death and know which direction to point the gun. Make sure your children know to carry a gun everywhere and to kill anyone who tries to disarm them.


Use pass-phrases
Knowing how to kill is useless if your loved ones do not know when to kill. Teach your loved ones challenge phrases to issue and response phrases to expect back in the event that you must communicate with them through an agent. Make sure that they know that anyone who fails to give the correct response phrase should be killed without hesitation.

Maintain separate emergency escape plans and safehouses

Your civilian family members should always have escape plans and safehouses that are fully independent from your own. In the event that your emergency plans are compromised they remain safe and, in the event that their plans are compromised, you remain free to rescue them.
toturi
John Doe doesn't have a fixed identity. Bob who is John closest ally knows John as Tom, Dick as well as Harry. So in order to punish John, Bob gets his wife's head shipped back to him for Tom, Dick and Harry's indiscretion.

In fact, by Rule 3, if Jack is John's closest ally and John backstabs Jack, Jack has to kill off one of his family in order to warn Jack! Hence the phrase "Keep your friends close, your enemies closer still."

The only rule: There are no rules; Thou shalt win at all costs.
hyzmarca
If John backstabs Jack then Jack isn't his closest ally.

The thing is that shadow runners who can't protect their families are going to be laughing stocks. Unless there is some form of brutal retribution, they're never going to get another good job again and they'll being relegated to escorting little-old ladies across the street for 20 nuyen.gif a pop in Redmond.
sunnyside
Ok. First I'm afraid I was unable to take this seriously due to the use of the term "Shadow Warriors".

Still part one sounds like something an indavidual might believe, but not the comunity.

Also in games families are commonly plot hook generators. Sad but true.

That being said keeping them hidden is probably your best bet. Even your teammates don't need to know.
Ravor
I don't know, I think I have to agree with toturi's one rule, because I personally don't see a Shadowrunner crippling himself by limiting the options which he can use to gain an edge against whoever his target is.

Because after all, in the end Mr Johnson is really only concerned with results, not whether or not this week's Street Scum play nice with each other's family.

And remember, all it takes for this 'Professional Code' to fall apart is to mix in human emotion, I seriously doubt that Winston in your example would really give a frag about whether he was beaking some 'Professional Code' as he let other Fixers know exactly what Scorcher did to his family as he arranged for Scorcher and his girlfriend to end up fitted for a pair of cement shoes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Shadowrunners, Fixers, ect are a diverse crowd of human scum who get paid to shoot people in the face, not a bunch of emotionless drones mindlessly following what strikes me as some vaguely Asian Code of Honor, and that this Code would only work if the vast majority decided to follow it.

*Edit*

However, let me clarify that I do agree that more often then not, Shadowrunners will tend to leave each other's families alone because it's generally not cost effective to target a Runner's loved ones because most Runner's will take it very personally if/when their loved ones are targeted. (After all, you are dealing with people who tend to be highly skilled and dangerous loose cannons.)

But you still totally lose me when you try to expand it to a 'Shadow-wide Honor Code' and claim that Winston is supposed to 'suck it up' because Scorcher had 'honor' on his side.

mfb
QUOTE (Ravor)
Because after all, in the end Mr Johnson is really only concerned with results, not whether or not this week's Street Scum play nice with each other's family.

the Johnson might not, but the fixer who decides what runners that Johnson is going to meet probably will.

the 'rules' hyz posted are, as he said, unwritten. runners don't think in terms of "he broke rule 2", it's just common sense to them--it's how things are. if Jack fucks with John's family, everybody who hears about it understands that John is going to go to war on Jack.
toturi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If John backstabs Jack then Jack isn't his closest ally.

Alrighty then. OK, Jim is John's next closest ally but poor Jimbo is also Jack's closest ally. So does Jack kidnap Jim's kid?
Ravor
QUOTE (mfb)
the Johnson might not, but the fixer who decides what runners that Johnson is going to meet probably will.


Maybe, maybe not, you see the problem with 'Honor Codes' is that they are only as effective as people will allow them to be, and I have a hard time imagining that the majority of Fixers are more concerned with whether or not a Runner follows the 'Shadow-Warrior Code' then if he is able to do whatever illegal and immoral task that Mr Johnson wants done this week.

QUOTE (mfb)
the 'rules' hyz posted are, as he said, unwritten. runners don't think in terms of "he broke rule 2", it's just common sense to them--it's how things are. if Jack fucks with John's family, everybody who hears about it understands that John is going to go to war on Jack.


And I would agree with you EXCEPT that hyzmarca goes on to say that since Jack started it then John is allowed to fuck with Tom's family and Tom is not allowed to do a single god-damn thing about it without breaking the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' and being shunned by the Shadow Community ... or worse.

That doesn't sound like simple 'Common Sense' or an 'Unwritten Code' to me...

*Edit*

In fact given that Fixer's families would tend to be the Number One target if the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' were to see widespread usage I very seriously doubt that they would be likely to favor a Runner who followed it over one that didn't.
mfb
i think #3 is more complex that hyzmarca has written it. i think if Winston went after Scorcher's family, Scorcher's pals would view it as a breach of 'the rules', while Winston's pals would view Winston's actions as being valid under rule #2.

and i think that either way, Winston is screwed--not only did he lose his family, but everybody knows that he got mixed up in family crap. family crap is something you don't, as a general rule, want to get involved in, for the simple reason that it can spin so wildly out of control.
Ravor
Although I agree that is exactly what would happen, once you allow for that reality then the entire 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' falls apart into a far more realistic Hatfield & Macoy type senerio.

And considering that a Hatfield & Macoy scenerio would happen with or without the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' then what exactly is the point of such a Code's existance in the first place?

* It doesn't change the fact that if John fucks with Jack's family then Jack is going to declare all-out war on John and his family.

* It doesn't change the fact that if in said war Jack fucks with Tom's family then Tom is going to go Hatfield and Macoy back on Jack.

* And it doesn't change the fact that Jack's chummers with back Jack, John's chummers will back John, and Tom's chummers will back Tom.

So at best the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' is a failed Honor Code whose existance or lack thereof doesn't change a single thing.

*Edit* Cleaned up a redunant point.
Glyph
I kind of agree with Ravor - Hyzmarca kind of lost me at rule #4, where someone who has his wife and baby tortured before his eyes is supposed to let it go, because the other person had some weird unwritten code of "honor" on his side.

About the only thing I agree with is that shadowrunners would take steps to protect their families but wouldn't, as a rule, talk "business" in front of them. And harming a runner's family would result in dire retribution. Runners would probably have an unwritten agreement that each others families should be off limits, and sane self-preservation is part of that. You don't want to get someone so angry that his only concern is devoting himself, 24-7, to hunting you down and doing terrible things to you.

But when you think about it, lots of runners wouldn't even follow rules #2 and #3. Do all runners have no problems with murdering innocent women and children in cold blood? A lot of runners who would put a bullet between the Don's eyes still wouldn't kill his wife and kids.

Do all runners shrug and settle for a coldly impersonal "this for that" retribution, instead of making an extremely brutal example of the person who actually did or commissioned the hit on their families?

Nah. I like rule #1, but I think rule #2 should only state that a runner whose family gets killed will seek violent retribution on everyone involved, and "it was just business" won't cut it as an excuse. Rule #3 should state that associates are fair game, but they should be given a chance to disassociate themselves from the transgressor, unless they provided material assistance to him, whether they knew the ultimate goal of that assistance or not.

And I don't think there would be any formal rules, just general attitudes such as "Man, you don't mess with someone's family. It just isn't done."
hyzmarca
Consider that this was intended to be a somewhat IC document by someone who is somewhat extreme about protecting his family (I mean, requireing one's kids to carry concealed pistols to pre-school isn't exactly the policy of a completely stable person).

But, the principals are pretty basic.

Rules 3 was an extreme exaggeration, of course. The basic idea is that those who are indirect accomplices in an attack on a runner's family are just as guilty as the one who chose to do the deed. A fixer who furnishes supplies or a teammate who looks the other way is just as responsible because they could have stopped him, one way or another, and chose not to.
People who choose to run with lose cannons are responsible for the consequences when those loose cannons go off. You can't just point to your teammate, who you trust with your life, and say "he did it, not me". If someone is a loose cannon like that, then you cut all ties with him one way or another, because he will eventually bring something bad down on you if you tolerate his behavior.

Rule 4 was a matter of urgency. If people have information that is required for the safe return of a shadowrunner's loved one then those people are just as guilty if they choose to withhold that information and if people are actually assisting in the kidnapping then they are certainly guilty, as well; there would be no loss of reputation to use their families as leverage against them in return.

Winston could very easily retaliate. But, most of those shadowrunners who have families themselves would probably see that Winston was in the wrong when he refused to give up this loose cannon who kidnapped another runner's civilian loved-one. It isn't that Winston would suck it up without a doubt so much as every Shadowrunner who has family would have something similar to Winston if they were in Scorcher's position (yeah, Scorcher was extreme but he needed the info as quickly as possible and didn't have a mage handy) so Winston is going to be the one to lose rep for it either way and the quieter he keeps the incident the less rep he's going to lose.

During the cold war, NATO and Soviet spies did some really terrible crap to each other at times but there was always an unwritten rule against targeting each other's families. It isn't that that everyone would go "oh no, Stasi Agent Volkswagon killed CIA agent Smith's grandmother, that violates the unwritten rule". It is more like "Dude, I have a grandmother. Targeting grandmothers ain't cool, Volkswagon."
(I apologize in advance to any East Germans or former Stasi agents who may be offended by my naming a fictional Secret Policeman Agent Volkawagon.)

So long as family remains off limits, everyone can rest easy. As soon as people start targeting family members, it does descend into a horrible mess very quickly.

In the case of Shadowrunners, it is a bit different. Shadowrunners almost never compete directly. When Shadowrunners fight someone, it is almost always security guards, gangers, military personnel, and insane magicians. It is a rare event that opposing Shadowrunners actually have cause to fire upon each other. It is almost never personal, it is usually about money, and it is almost impossible to known that the opposition has hired an unstable Shadowrunner to go against you until it is too late. This makes the targeting of families even more frightening. Every Shadowrunner with a family looks at a runner who attacks the families of rival runners and knows that their families could be next, that this guy is a loose cannon who deserves whatever comes to him and that his teammates deserve whatever comes to them.

As for the tit-of-tat retribution. Many runners wouldn't go for it. Many would. Either way, they wouldn't get a bad reputation because of it, though they might get a bad reputation if they were unable to exact any sort of revenge. The point of such actions is to make the perpetrator hurt as much as you are hurting, if at all possible..
mfb
it forces certain responses. if someone screws with your family, responding in kind is the only option that allows you to retain any semblance of reputation. forcing responses in kind makes sure everyone knows the score. it makes sure that punkass, no-nothing newbies are less likely to flip out and go after your family, because they've all heard the stories about what happens. it makes sure that crime syndicates color inside the lines and don't go around whacking family members, because they know that doing so will precipitate a major war.

without such a general sort of code, there are no clear responses. Jack might geek John's kid, and John might wipe out Jack's entire extended family--which sets off a huge response in turn, and so on. or Jack might just sit at home and cry for a while, then get back to work. clearly-defined consequences, especially ones that generally follow human response norms, help make such dealings less unpredictable, and therefore less dangerous to anyone peripherally involved.
Kagetenshi
If you target the Runner, target the family. You must leave no one behind to become Batman.

~J
thorr
the way i see it, its probably just like in movies about the mob or the yakuza. the sopranos and good fellas come to mind off the top of my head. i also see it being different depending on the society they come from. japanese would have different rules than americans, etc. besides they're more like guidelines. smokin.gif smokin.gif
Backgammon
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If you target the Runner, target the family. You must leave no one behind to become Batman.

~J

When the ancient Romans assasinated someone, they made sure to kill EVERYONE related to that person, for this exact reason.

The Mafia also continued (or retook) this tradition, again for the same reasons.

You don't want no son growing up with the desire to avenge his father. That makes for a deadly enemy.
hyzmarca
The problem with that logic is that, taken to the logical conclusion, you end up killing the entire world. The family and friends that you kill will have family and friends of their own who, in turn, have family and friends of their own, continuing until you find that everyone on the face of the planet is connected to everyone else by a complex web of relationships. In eliminating anyone who want want revenge in the future, you simply create more people who'll want revenge.

When it comes to limiting conflicts, a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction is supperior to wholescale genocide, especially considering that any runner worth killing will have the resources to take out your entire family from beyond the grave using freelance operatives and a dead-mans switch buried in a hidden Matrix node.

Besides, Batman never did get revenge against the guy who killed his parents. Every other criminal in Gotham got his ass kicked, but the actual shooter was taken out before batman even came into the picture.

Edit: And, for that matter, The Punisher is a thousand times more baddass than Batman. Who cares about angering Mr. "I dress up like a bat and never kill anyone because a criminal murdered my parents" when the whoesale slaughter of entire families can easily create Mr. "I dress up like me and kill every criminal who crosses my path because criminals murdered my wife and children."
Ravor
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Consider that this was intended to be a somewhat IC document by someone who is somewhat extreme about protecting his family (I mean, requireing one's kids to carry concealed pistols to pre-school isn't exactly the policy of a completely stable person).


Sure, and it would work wonderfully as such if the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' weren't protrayed as something that is widely adopted and codified to the point where if you kill John's wife for something that Jack did then the Shadow Community as a whole will understand and even aplaud your reaction as resonable provided that you staple a note to her head.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Winston could very easily retaliate. But, most of those shadowrunners who have families themselves would probably see that Winston was in the wrong when he refused to give up this loose cannon who kidnapped another runner's civilian loved-one. It isn't that Winston would suck it up without a doubt so much as every Shadowrunner who has family would have something similar to Winston if they were in Scorcher's position (yeah, Scorcher was extreme but he needed the info as quickly as possible and didn't have a mage handy) so Winston is going to be the one to lose rep for it either way and the quieter he keeps the incident the less rep he's going to lose.


You see, here is where I disagree, because although Scorcher's chummers might very well see things through that view, Winston's chummers aren't likely to be nearly as forgiving because they will be looking at the fact that Winston's family was violated, not that Scorcher's girlfriend was being held against her will.

Because something else that should be running through the back of the Runners' mind is that if Scorcher is willing to do that to Winston's family over something which Winston didn't even do and he might very well not have known where the girlfriend was being held then what might he do to their families if he believed they might know something.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
In the case of Shadowrunners, it is a bit different. Shadowrunners almost never compete directly. When Shadowrunners fight someone, it is almost always security guards, gangers, military personnel, and insane magicians. It is a rare event that opposing Shadowrunners actually have cause to fire upon each other.


Perhaps in your campaigns that holds true, but I'd be very careful about claiming its validility in the Sixth World as a whole.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Every Shadowrunner with a family looks at a runner who attacks the families of rival runners and knows that their families could be next, that this guy is a loose cannon who deserves whatever comes to him and that his teammates deserve whatever comes to them.


And you know what, I'd agree provided that you didn't provide the exceptions under Rules Three & Four, either families are supposed to be untouchable or they aren't. Once you start muddling the waters by saying that Jonh's family can be violated for something which he wasn't even involved with and that the Shadow Community will be perfectly ok with it then families aren't untouchable at all, especially in a world where full body plastic surgery is commonplace.

After all, what happens if Jack gets body sculpted to look like John before killing Tom's entire family? Under your 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' what recourse does John have when his family is is wiped out 'with honor' before the truth comes out? Does he then get to wipe out the family of Tom's closest ally free of charge or is he supposed to 'suck it up' and settle for hunting down Jack while letting the man who actually tortured and killed his family live because it was done 'with honor'?

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
As for the tit-of-tat retribution. Many runners wouldn't go for it. Many would. Either way, they wouldn't get a bad reputation because of it, though they might get a bad reputation if they were unable to exact any sort of revenge. The point of such actions is to make the perpetrator hurt as much as you are hurting, if at all possible..


Yeah, and what I say is that the presence or lack thereof of a 'Shadow-Warrior's Honor Code' doesn't change anything once you allow for the fact that human emotion will balk at Rules Three & Four, unless Winston is the type who would commit 'Honor Sucide' then he and his chummers aren't just going to let Scorcher go, especially if Winston didn't realize what Raver had done.

Because if Fixers are expected to sell out everytime someone claiming to be a Runner declares that So & So violated the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' then your world is broken.

<><><><><><><><><><>

QUOTE (mfb)
it forces certain responses.


Only if the code were in wide spread force, which considering both the fragmented, distrustful nature of the Shadow Community & the fact that the code itself breaks so easily under the weight of human emotion I very much doubt that it would be wide spread enough to do anything other then make for some truely scary Urban Myths. (Really, when I read Rules Three & Four I feel like I'm reading some sort of 'Ninja Code' where if the Runner fails to extract revenge he must commit ritual sucide.)

QUOTE (mfb)
if someone screws with your family, responding in kind is the only option that allows you to retain any semblance of reputation. forcing responses in kind makes sure everyone knows the score. it makes sure that punkass, no-nothing newbies are less likely to flip out and go after your family, because they've all heard the stories about what happens.


Sure, but I say that you don't need the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' to do that. Typical human emotion coupled with the concept of Street Cred will do so rather nicely without expecting poor Winston to 'suck up' the fact that his family was brutalized in the name of 'Honor'.

QUOTE (mfb)
it makes sure that crime syndicates color inside the lines and don't go around whacking family members, because they know that doing so will precipitate a major war.


Firstly I don't consider a 'Shadowrunner Honor Code' dictating the actions of the crime syndicates a good thing, runners are the little fish in a big pond no matter how nasty their bite might be.

QUOTE (mfb)
without such a general sort of code, there are no clear responses. Jack might geek John's kid, and John might wipe out Jack's entire extended family--which sets off a huge response in turn, and so on. or Jack might just sit at home and cry for a while, then get back to work.


And how exactly is that any different from what hyzmarca spells out when hyzmarca admits that even in hyzmarca's view of the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' many Runners wouldn't subscribe to the 'tit-for-tat retribution' while many Runners would?

QUOTE (mfb)
clearly-defined consequences, especially ones that generally follow human response norms, help make such dealings less unpredictable, and therefore less dangerous to anyone peripherally involved.


Well firstly I disagree with the premise that clearly defining when you can and can not slaughter someone's family 'with Honor' is a good thing, and I'll strongly disgree with the idea that this 'Honor Code' makes things less dangerous for anyone peripherally involved, if anything its adoption would make things more dangerous for such persons and their families.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The problem with that logic is that, taken to the logical conclusion, you end up killing the entire world. The family and friends that you kill will have family and friends of their own who, in turn, have family and friends of their own, continuing until you find that everyone on the face of the planet is connected to everyone else by a complex web of relationships. In eliminating anyone who want want revenge in the future, you simply create more people who'll want revenge.

Do you have any reasonable evidence that a graph of relationships will be connected? I'd consider it almost guaranteed that it will be disconnected.

QUOTE
Who cares about angering Mr. "I dress up like a bat and never kill anyone because a criminal murdered my parents" when the whoesale slaughter of entire families can easily create Mr. "I dress up like me and kill every criminal who crosses my path because criminals murdered my wife and children."

This problem was caused because they didn't slaughter the entire family, not because they did.

~J
hyzmarca
The point as I have said, is that those who tolerate such acts are just as guilty as those who commit them. Every runner who has that kind of person on his team should just get rid of him, one way or another, or else face any wrath that he may bring down upon them. If you work with such a fellow, if you benefit from the fruits of his repugnant acts, then you are equally as guilty. If the perpetrator is immune to retribution then there is really no one left to go after but his accomplices.

And that's the point of rules 3 and 4. Such actions can never be tolerated. Those who tolerate them are just as guilty as the one who does the deed, even if they weren't directly involved and an example must be made one way or the other.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Do you have any reasonable evidence that a graph of relationships will be connected? I'd consider it almost guaranteed that it will be disconnected.




There is Milgram's Small World Experiment. While the experiment itself was flawed due to the large number of people who refused to forward the chain-letter, its results have never been successfully refuted. While it is highly unlikely that a Sentinelese fellow would track you down and slaughter your entire family in revenge for the murder of a person in America, it is difficult to guage exactly how much a murder will piss off a person. How far do you go. First Cousins? Second Cousins? This does lead to the slaughter of the Second Cousins of Second Cousins of Second Cousins, of course, which is the ultimate problem with such a tactic.
Ravor
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
And that's the point of rules 2 and 3. Such actions can never be tolerated. Those who tolerate them are just as guilty as the one who does the deed, even if they weren't directly involved and an example must be made one way or the other.


The problem is that once you allow for the targeting of families under Rules Two & Three then the code itself is making allowances to tolerate the very actions which it claims must never be tolerated.

After all what is the "Honorable" responce to the following situation?

CODE
* Jack gets body-sculpted to look exactly like John.

* Jack then kills Tom's entire family.

* In responce Tom kills John's entire family.

* Jack slips up and the truth is learned.

* The Shadow Community expects John to do...


And then Rule Four comes by and finishes twisting the knife into the remains of the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code'.


Also exactly what would be the burden of proof needed by the Shadow Community to invoke this 'Code'? Remember that in the Sixth World media can be easily faked, body-sculpting is cheap and easy, and magic/ICE allows for some wicked memory alterations.

And please, by all means explain why and how such an 'unwritten' but yet somehow rather codified 'Honor Code' came to be widely adopted by a diverse and untrusting Shadow Community made up by scum who get paid to shoot innocent people in the face?

Because unless the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' is just the in-character rantings of one man/woman that is what you have to prove.

*Edit* Did some minor editing to make the point I was trying to make clear. (Basically I changed the posistion of a single sentence in the post.)
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There is Milgram's Small World Experiment.

Which, among other issues, was conducted between nodes who were all in the same country, and searched for knowledge on first-name basis, not willingness to hunt down the killers of.

Friends are much less likely to hunt down someone than family. It's pretty easy to kill enough people to dramatically reduce your risk.

~J
Darkest Angel
This thread reminds me of M:I3 and Philip Seymore Hoffman's line:
QUOTE
Who are you? What's you're name? Do you have a wife? A girlfriend? Because if you do, I'm gonna find her. I'm gonna hurt her. I'm gonna make her bleed, and cry, and call out your name. And then I'm gonna find you,and kill you right in front of her.

That sounds like suitable revenge for going after someones family.
Ravor
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
This thread reminds me of M:I3 and Philip Seymore Hoffman's line:
QUOTE
Who are you? What's you're name? Do you have a wife? A girlfriend? Because if you do, I'm gonna find her. I'm gonna hurt her. I'm gonna make her bleed, and cry, and call out your name. And then I'm gonna find you,and kill you right in front of her.

That sounds like suitable revenge for going after someones family.

I agree, and would say that is the responce which most Shadowrunners would have with one minor add-on, make both of them watch each other die the slowest, most painfully way you can manage to pull off.
mfb
QUOTE (Ravor)
And please, by all means explain why and how such an 'unwritten' but yet somehow rather codified 'Honor Code' came to be widely adopted by a diverse and untrusting Shadow Community made up by scum who get paid to shoot innocent people in the face?

it seems codified because it's a very simple set of ideas that have been written down. nothing as uncomplicated as this could possibly be written down succinctly without appearing codified.

runners are not all that diverse or mistrustful. running is too widespread, too common an occupation for there to be large degrees of difference between how different groups do it. sure, there will be outliers, but there are enough runners in the business to form reliable bell curves off their behaviors.

the extent that they are diverse and mistrustful is why such behaviors would become commonplace. there's got to be some sort of basic assumptions runners can make about each other in order for them to be able to work together, or nothing will ever get done because everybody will be spending too much time watching their own back. if killing each others' families were common, then the runner subculture would be a warzone where runners spend more time on vendettas than doing any work.
Lindt
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jun 4 2007, 12:55 AM)
Although I agree that is exactly what would happen, once you allow for that reality  then the entire 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' falls apart into a far more realistic Hatfield & Macoy type senerio.

And considering that a Hatfield & Macoy scenerio would happen with or without the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' then what exactly is the point of such a Code's existance in the first place?

* It doesn't change the fact that if John fucks with Jack's family then Jack is going to declare all-out war on John and his family.

* It doesn't change the fact that if in said war Jack fucks with Tom's family then Tom is going to go Hatfield and Macoy back on Jack.

* And it doesn't change the fact that Jack's chummers with back Jack, John's chummers will back John, and Tom's chummers will back Tom.

So at best the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' is a failed Honor Code whose existance or lack thereof doesn't change a single thing.



Yep. As soon as you do something foul to someones family, all rules go out the window.

Example? Well you all saw the Punisher Movie.
You killed my wife and child (Im ignoring the rest, as it was overkill for this situation). I now have full motive and justification to mow down you and everyone you know in a hail of bullets.

Mr. Johnson decides he wants to use his runners good friend as leverage (in this case a L3 contact). I would expect a hired killer to go do legwork out the ass, call in favors, grease palms, and do something less then plesent. Preferable after doing the job, and getting paid
Im currently waiting for one of my players to get into her PC enough, and Ill give this situation a whirl.
Ravor
QUOTE (mfb)
it seems codified because it's a very simple set of ideas that have been written down. nothing as uncomplicated as this could possibly be written down succinctly without appearing codified.


And I disagree because for the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' to have any meaning whatsoever its necessary its usage has to be recognized by an outsider to the situation at hand, otherwise the Shadow Comunity as a whole, never mind John isn't very bloody likely to accept that the note stapled to his dead wife's forehead claiming that she was tortured and killed in responce to something that Jack did should increase Tom's Street Cred as well as render him immune to further attack.

And it is very possible to write down the uncodified and far less complicated attitudes that the majority of Shadowrunners most probably do follow when it comes to families.


"You fuck with mine, I fuck with yours."

... or ...

"Chummer, you don't mess with families, its bad for biz."

... or ...

"You stupid Slitch, that was his Grandmother, do you have any idea what I'd do to someone who did that to my Grams?"


The problem is that the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' tries to go a step further with the claim that if John hits my wife and knocks out a tooth then I can hit his wife provided that I'm careful to only knock out her tooth and not break her fragging jaw. (In fact it seems that I'm in danger of losing 'Face' if I don't.)

If Tom manages to blow up my sister's car then I get HAVE to blow up his sister's car as well. Only what happens if my sister's car was a junker and his sister drives a Jag? What if because of not having a car my sister had to sell her body on the street because she couldn't commute and thus lost her job while Tom's sister's car is just a toy to her? What exactly is 'equal injury' in this case?

QUOTE (mfb)
runners are not all that diverse or mistrustful. running is too widespread, too common an occupation for there to be large degrees of difference between how different groups do it. sure, there will be outliers, but there are enough runners in the business to form reliable bell curves off their behaviors.


Not all that diverse or distrustful ... EXCUSE ME?

Remember first of all that the runners are at the fringes of society, and second of all that they live in a world where its the 'prevailing wisdom' that every tenth employer is going to try to either cheat or kill them.

Doesn't sound like a very good receipe to produce trust and comformity to me. If you want those qualities then you sell your soul and become a wageslave.

QUOTE (mfb)
the extent that they are diverse and mistrustful is why such behaviors would become commonplace. there's got to be some sort of basic assumptions runners can make about each other in order for them to be able to work together, or nothing will ever get done because everybody will be spending too much time watching their own back. if killing each others' families were common, then the runner subculture would be a warzone where runners spend more time on vendettas than doing any work.


And I agree completely with this sentiment, the problem is that unless you believe that the Shadow Comunity as a whole is made up of hidebound men & women who are consistantly worried about losing 'Face' and who value their 'Honor' more then their loved ones then following the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' will spiral into exactly the Hatfield & Macoy warzone you've described.

Hmm, the more I think about it, 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' sounds like something that might actually work in a Triad-type community where people actually do consider ritual sucide when they fail and have no qualms about being bond to an Oath that really does kill you if you break it.
mfb
QUOTE (Ravor)
If Tom manages to blow up my sister's car then I get HAVE to blow up his sister's car as well. Only what happens if my sister's car was a junker and his sister drives a Jag?

the problem is, you're assuming that the rules are exceedingly strict and literal--that every runner who follows these rules will always choose the same response to the same stimuli, and that every runner will view every response in the same light. rule 2 is that if someone does something to your family, you have to pay it back in equal measure. if i blow up your sister's Jaguar, you might choose to blow up my sister's junker if you feel that's equal. if you don't, you might choose to blow up my sister's house. if my sister doesn't have a house, or anything else of strong value, you might choose to blow up something of my mother's (rule 3). some runners might view such a response as fair; others might think it's overboard.

QUOTE (Ravor)
Not all that diverse or distrustful ... EXCUSE ME?

and yet they manage to work together frequently, and frequently successfully. which means that, to a large degree, there is a certain amount of basic trust that runners extend to each other. if you and some random runner you've never heard of show up for a meet, you do your job and you walk away--you don't spend three weeks researching the other runner's background trying to determine if he's a 'Star plant or something.

QUOTE (Ravor)
And I agree completely with this sentiment, the problem is that unless you believe that the Shadow Comunity as a whole is made up of hidebound men & women who are consistantly worried about losing 'Face' and who value their 'Honor' more then their loved ones then following the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' will spiral into exactly the Hatfield & Macoy warzone you've described.

only if you assume that they follow it in a hidebound manner. you're thinking of them as rules in a rulebook, which they aren't. they're guiding principles.
Ravor
QUOTE (mfb)
the problem is, you're assuming that the rules are exceedingly strict and literal--that every runner who follows these rules will always choose the same response to the same stimuli, and that every runner will view every response in the same light. rule 2 is that if someone does something to your family, you have to pay it back in equal measure. if i blow up your sister's Jaguar, you might choose to blow up my sister's junker if you feel that's equal. if you don't, you might choose to blow up my sister's house. if my sister doesn't have a house, or anything else of strong value, you might choose to blow up something of my mother's (rule 3). some runners might view such a response as fair; others might think it's overboard.


QUOTE (mfb)
only if you assume that they follow it in a hidebound manner. you're thinking of them as rules in a rulebook, which they aren't. they're guiding principles.


Ok, so if I decided that blowing up your sister's house in responce to you blowing up my sister's car was the 'equal injury' demanded under the 'Shadow-Warrior's Code' then you'd be ok with that and not decide that I'd just escalated the conflict and respond in kind?

How does 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' work when it's Ravor and mfb the Dumpshockers turned-Shadowrunner and our families involved instead of the fictionized John, Tom, and Jack?

Because unless you assume that 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' has an accepted and widely adopted idea of exactly what 'Equal Injury' means then the entire concept is a waste because what you view as 'equal injury' towards my family I view as escalating the conflict and am now required to respond in kind which according to 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' you are to take as a further attack and must also respond in kind.

And you've just stated that the Shadow Comunity as a whole will probably be divided on the issue as who is right so can you explain how following or not following 'the code' can result in the lost of 'Face'?

QUOTE (mfb)
and yet they manage to work together frequently, and frequently successfully. which means that, to a large degree, there is a certain amount of basic trust that runners extend to each other. if you and some random runner you've never heard of show up for a meet, you do your job and you walk away--you don't spend three weeks researching the other runner's background trying to determine if he's a 'Star plant or something.


No, but you also don't use your real name, allow him to visit your real apartment or talk about your real family either.

And unless the runner is being vouched for by someone that you know and have worked with in the past then yes you do whatever digging you can before the run and watch your back because you don't know if the runner is 'cool under fire' and a 'level head you can count on to get your back' or a Glitch who likes slotting 'Red Fury BTLs' before entering the facility.
mfb
if i blew up your car, i wouldn't be okay with you in the first place--i'd have already discarded the code.

even without strict ideas about equality, the code still serves its purpose. it's not as effective at keeping things impersonal as a strict code would be, of course, but it still serves to limit the spread and severity of such fueds. those water-filled barrels on the side of the road aren't going to stop your car, if you careen wildy into them--but they'll slow you down, maybe enough so that you don't get killed when your car slams into the treeline beyond.

QUOTE (Ravor)
And you've just stated that the Shadow Comunity as a whole will probably be divided on the issue as who is right so can you explain how following or not following 'the code' can result in the lost of 'Face'?

again, it's not strict. some runners and fixers will be okay with what you did. others--maybe even the majority, depending on the specific situation and your previous rep--might take a dimmer view.

QUOTE (Ravor)
No, but you also don't use your real name, allow him to visit your real apartment or talk about your real family either.

And unless the runner is being vouched for by someone that you know and have worked with in the past then yes you do whatever digging you can before the run and watch your back because you don't know if the runner is 'cool under fire' and a 'level head you can count on to get your back' or a Glitch who likes slotting 'Red Fury BTLs' before entering the facility.

granted. but assuming your quick legwork doesn't turn up anything, you proceed on the assumption that the guy's probably reliable. you don't trust him implicitly, but you don't distrust him implicitly either.

again, you keep viewing the whole thing as being strict and rigid. it's not. it's not a wall that strongly defines behaviors, it's a buffer zone--a guideline.
Ravor
QUOTE (mfb)
granted. but assuming your quick legwork doesn't turn up anything, you proceed on the assumption that the guy's probably reliable. you don't trust him implicitly, but you don't distrust him implicitly either.


Mmmm, I more or less agree, although I'd say that until the new guy 'proved' himself that you would limit your "suspension of distrust" only as far as necessary to pull off the run at hand, trust should not come cheaply in the Shadows and a "True Chummer" should be as rare and as valuable as all the treasure in Lowfer's Lair.

QUOTE (mfb)
if i blew up your car, i wouldn't be okay with you in the first place--i'd have already discarded the code.


Maybe, maybe not, it all depends on why you blew up the car in the first place. After all, every Jane Wageslave that you use as a hostage/bodyshield when everything goes to hell is someone's sister, in this case she just happened to be mine. (After, why should I love my sister any less then the local Mob Boss would in the same situation?)

QUOTE (mfb)
even without strict ideas about equality, the code still serves its purpose. it's not as effective at keeping things impersonal as a strict code would be, of course, but it still serves to limit the spread and severity of such fueds. those water-filled barrels on the side of the road aren't going to stop your car, if you careen wildy into them--but they'll slow you down, maybe enough so that you don't get killed when your car slams into the treeline beyond.


You see, I disagree, because what this code does is drag more people into the conflict then would probably otherwise been involved.

Without such a code, yeah I may declare all-out war on you and your loved ones if for whatever reason you harmed/killed one of my loved ones. BUT I wouldn't be as likely to drag in the families of your chummers unless they of course were directly involved.

...

Or I may simply settle for your head mounted on a pike, after all your family never did anything to me.

...

Or after one too many BTLs I may suffer a mental break and decide that I'm going to kill your very memory by geeking everyone that you've ever known.

...

Or I may cry for awhile and get on with my life, after all, very few people haven't lost a loved one in the Sixth World.


But if our war managed to spin to the point where it actually started making ripples in the Shadow Community and started making life tougher for everyone, then I'd imagine that both of us would be geeked as a lesson to everyone else not to cause trouble.

I am assuming of course roughly equal Street Reps, ect, if one of us were liked better then the other then he'd probably survive although with a tarnished rep.


-----

However with 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelines' as a widely adopted set of principles then as each side esculates the conflict due in part to human emotion and also because we can't agree what 'equal injury' is in order to stop (And if we've reached the point of fed-exing heads to each other we aren't really going to try to talk to each other to figure out exactly what is 'Honorable Equal Injury' and what is overkill.), our Chummer's families are very likely to get targeted as both of us start running out of loved ones to butcher.

...

Or one of us may say "Frag the Code!" and go with one of the scenerios I described under what would be likely to happen without a code.


So even if I were to believe that 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' was originally meant to be taken as fuzzy Guidelines and not as Rules once you add in the fact that not even hyzmarca believes that everyone will follow the "Code" when it tells you to go tit-for-tat (If I remember the quote, it was "many would, but many wouldn't".) the only real difference between the existance of the Code or not is how the Shadow Community would react to to a couple of Runners pissing into the waters. And you'd be very hard pressed to prove that the Shadow Community would care more about 'Honor' then 'Mercenary Self Interest' when deciding whoes rep to trash.


As for the Code's Virtues ... wel;


- It doesn't provide protection to 'innocent' bystanders, in fact it encourages you to target them to punish your 'real target'.


- It expects the 'innocent' bystanders to accept their loses with grace because the damage was done 'With Honor'.


- It assumes that the Shadow Community by-and-large is more concerned about 'Honor' then 'Self Interest' when deciding whoes Rep is damaged and whoes isn't.


So tell me exactly how 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelines is supposed to make life in the Shadows Safer for a Runner who doesn't intend getting mixed up in a Hatfield & Macoy anyways?
Kagetenshi
I'm not sure about trust, but Shadowrunners probably aren't that diverse--a subculture numbering ~250 in a city as big as Seattle probably only has so much diversity.

~J
Ravor
Well I guess I must be looking at diversity slightly differently then, sure there may only be between 200-300 "Pro Runners" active in Seattle at any given time, but they are drawn from the much larger pool of wannabes and other Fringe Types.

Someone who grew up as a Barren Rat isn't likely to hold the same views of 'Honor' and Family as an ex-Wildcat, or a Hunted Tir Assassin, or a Burnt Corp Man, ect, ect...

The 'Shadow Community' isn't diverse because of its numbers, it is diverse because of the individuals who make up its ranks.
Darkest Angel
QUOTE (Ravor)
Well I guess I must be looking at diversity slightly differently then, sure there may only be between 200-300 "Pro Runners" active in Seattle at any given time, but they are drawn from the much larger pool of wannabes and other Fringe Types.

Someone who grew up as a Barren Rat isn't likely to hold the same views of 'Honor' and Family as an ex-Wildcat, or a Hunted Tir Assassin, or a Burnt Corp Man, ect, ect...

The 'Shadow Community' isn't diverse because of its numbers, it is diverse because of the individuals who make up its ranks.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that.

If a person is going to put themselves into a position where they're putting their life in someone elses hands on as regular a basis as a Shadowrunner does, they're going to have to trust and be trusted; for that they need to be a team player. A certain level of paranoia comes with the territory, but at the end of the day the fixer wants to get paid as well and he's not going to bring people together who can't work as a team. It's not even about your checks coming up with dirt, the fixer is going to make far more stringent checks of his own. Anyone who doesn't play by The Rules™ simply isn't going to get the chance to make it as a runner, because the Fixer or Mr Johnson don't want someone in the team who wont get along and play ball.
mfb
QUOTE (Ravor)
the only real difference between the existance of the Code or not is how the Shadow Community would react to to a couple of Runners pissing into the waters. And you'd be very hard pressed to prove that the Shadow Community would care more about 'Honor' then 'Mercenary Self Interest' when deciding whoes rep to trash.

their self-interest coincides with the concept of honor as it relates to killing family members. someone who breaks the code in the eyes of the general runner populace is going to find himself out of a job, because the general runner populace will worry that someone who broke the code once might do so again. most runners probably wouldn't call it 'honor' or say that they follow a 'code', per se. they would say that they don't mess with each others' families because they don't want their own familes messed with. they would say that if someone did mess with their family, then repayment will be made in kind--partly for the sake of revenge, and partly because someone who can't protect/avenge their family probably isn't worth hiring. and they'd say they won't work with a family-killer, because a guy who'd do that is too dangerous to trust.
Ravor
Darkest Angel I guess I'm not quite sure where we disagree, having diverse backgrounds and views doesn't necessarily render you 'not a team player', and I agree that most of the time it is in the Fixer's best interests to ensure that that the team he puts together is capable enough to keep Johnson happy.

But remember that Fixers are still street scum, they make mistakes, play favorites, can be bribed, and in the end, their dreams and desires are easily worth destroying the lives of your entire team and your loved ones if they think that the payoff is worth the probable cost.


...


However if you were referring to Fixers ensuring that people adopt 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelines' then of course I couldn't disagree with you more because quite simply there is nothing in it for them to do so, their loved ones aren't made safer by a code that demands a Runner target a third party in order to punish someone, especially when a good Fixer is connected and allied with allot of people.



*Edit*

QUOTE (mfb)
their self-interest coincides with the concept of honor as it relates to killing family members. someone who breaks the code in the eyes of the general runner populace is going to find himself out of a job, because the general runner populace will worry that someone who broke the code once might do so again.


But yet they aren't worried about what someone who actually believes in following the code might do?

And once again you are assuming that the General Shadow Community will largely come to an agreement on what really happened and who had 'Honor' on their side vs who didn't. If that is the case then things like Dealing with a Dragon, Betrayal, or Hunted would also be Blacklisting Offenses instead of merely hurting a Runner's Rep.


QUOTE (mfb)
... they would say that they don't mess with each others' families because they don't want their own familes messed with. ...



Yeah, and I've never had a problem with Rule One, I imagine that it is a widespread shared attitude amongst many Runners.


QUOTE (mfb)
... they would say that if someone did mess with their family, then repayment will be made in kind--partly for the sake of revenge, and partly because someone who can't protect/avenge their family probably isn't worth hiring. ...



Meh ... If I didn't still see the echoes of 'equal injury' with the 'Honor Debt' being paid afterward that is clearly part of "The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelines'" Rule Two I think I could come to a luke-warm agreement.

But we've already explored the fact that 'equal injury' or as you've put it 'payment in kind' isn't a useful measurement because quite simply the people involved won't be able to objectively agree when the 'debt' has been met.


QUOTE (mfb)
... and they'd say they won't work with a family-killer, because a guy who'd do that is too dangerous to trust. ...



Maybe, maybe not, it surely wouldn't be good for the Runner's Rep, but considering the things which the Shadows are willing to take in stride it wouldn't be a career killer either. And besides, this isn't really part of the 'code' anyways.



However, it is interesting that you've only used Rules 1 & 2 of 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelines', what would they say to explain the fact that they are expected to allow their loved ones to be harmed if one of their Chummers did happen to run afoul of 'The Code' as per Rule Three?

Or how about the precious gem known as Rule Four? After all, by declaring Rule Four the fact that a Runner is a known 'family killer' isn't even supposed to be held against his Rep and in fact might enhance it.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'm not sure about trust, but Shadowrunners probably aren't that diverse--a subculture numbering ~250 in a city as big as Seattle probably only has so much diversity.

~J

Plus, that population is comprised of probably, what, 75% hot elf lesbians? biggrin.gif
Ravor
Naw, its 75% hot elf lesbian stripper ninjas. cyber.gif

*Edit*

And the other 25% is made up of dikoted Ally Spirits... cyber.gif
mfb
QUOTE (Ravor)
But yet they aren't worried about what someone who actually believes in following the code might do?

no moreso than they're worried that some runner might betray them in the middle of a run--which is to say, it's a concern, and you take measures to prevent it where possible, but it's not something you really expect to happen.

QUOTE (Ravor)
And once again you are assuming that the General Shadow Community will largely come to an agreement on what really happened and who had 'Honor' on their side vs who didn't. If that is the case then things like Dealing with a Dragon, Betrayal, or Hunted would also be Blacklisting Offenses instead of merely hurting a Runner's Rep.

yes, i do assume that a group of people who communicate frequently and freely will come to a general consensus on many issues. there will be outliers, there will be vocal dissenters, but there will be a majority opinion because that's how communities tend to work.

you're also blowing things out of proportion. just because someone broke the rules doesn't mean the entire community will shun them forever. it means that many members of the community will take that breach into account in their future dealings with the offender. they might be less inclinded to make a good deal, do a favor, or cut any slack for the offender. nobody said that someone who breaks the rules on families will be blacklisted for all eternity.

QUOTE (Ravor)
But we've already explored the fact that 'equal injury' or as you've put it 'payment in kind' isn't a useful measurement because quite simply the people involved won't be able to objectively agree when the 'debt' has been met.

that's on them. they have to try to think about it objectively, try to figure out what level of response they would view as appropriate if it were someone else whose family had been attacked. they have to hope the level of response they choose is viewed by a majority of other runners as being appropriate. if they decide not to think about it objectively, if they decide to just go fangs-out and destroy the offending runner's life, then the community will remember that.

QUOTE (Ravor)
However, it is interesting that you've only used Rules 1 & 2 of 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelines', what would they say to explain the fact that they are expected to allow their loved ones to be harmed if one of their Chummers did happen to run afoul of 'The Code' as per Rule Three?

Or how about the precious gem known as Rule Four? After all, by declaring Rule Four the fact that a Runner is a known 'family killer' isn't even supposed to be held against his Rep and in fact might enhance it.

actually, i did describe rule 3. i said "payment in kind". that includes substitution, if necessary.

as for rule four--most runners wouldn't want to work with anyone linked to a family-killer, either. the stigma is less than working with the family-killer himself, but it's still there. Winston, in the original example, got what he deserved for working with a guy who'd make unprovoked assaults on a man's family. it sucks for Winston, sure, but that's life.
Kagetenshi
Personally, I don't believe there will be such a code simply because I believe a sufficiently large portion of the shadow community won't benefit from it (no significant family, close friends, etc. outside the shadow community) to result in the unreliability of the code to the point of uselessness.

I'll have to review my novels and older sourcebooks, though--did Hatchetman and Kid Stealth have anyone outside the shadows who they'd worry about?

~J
hyzmarca
Rule 4 is meant to express the fact that holding a runner's loved one hostage has much more serious consequences to the runner than just maiming or killing a runner's loved one does. A hostage situation doesn't just hurt one runner, it potentially harms his entire team, his Johnson, his Fixer, and his mission. So long as a loved one is held hostage the hostage taker could potentially make any demand and such demands usually do not bode well for anyone involved with the compromised runner. Short of suicide or allowing the loved-one to come to harm, the only solution is to retrieve the hostage with the utmost efficiency.
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Personally, I don't believe there will be such a code simply because I believe a sufficiently large portion of the shadow community won't benefit from it (no significant family, close friends, etc. outside the shadow community) to result in the unreliability of the code to the point of uselessness.

granted that many players choose the unattached life for their characters, i don't see that being the case for the majority of runners. very few twenty-somethings manage to end up completely familyless--even if they're perpetually single, they've still got parents, siblings, cousins, etcetera. and i don't think the desire to mate fades when somebody ends up living outside the law; runners are prone to date, and even form long-term relationships, as anyone else.

further, this has implications outside the runner community. this is how runners treat their non-runner associates--company men, organized crime, and so on. it might not necessarily be reciprocated... but then again it might; company men have families, too.
Kagetenshi
We've got a very small community that disproportionately attracts the antisocial and the isolated--those lacking the desire or the ability to form or maintain successful long-term relationships. Very few twenty-somethings manage to end up completely familyless (though for our purposes note that having estranged family is equivalent), but even fewer end up shadowrunners--selection bias could easily result in the former constituting a large percentage of the latter.

Also, the protection is compromised by not applying to how the outside community treats shadowrunners--your code isn't going to help you against corporate hit squads or organized crime, both of whom are probably far more likely threats than fellow shadowrunners.

~J
Ravor
QUOTE (mfb)
you're also blowing things out of proportion. just because someone broke the rules doesn't mean the entire community will shun them forever. it means that many members of the community will take that breach into account in their future dealings with the offender. they might be less inclinded to make a good deal, do a favor, or cut any slack for the offender. nobody said that someone who breaks the rules on families will be blacklisted for all eternity.


Am I now?

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
This rule exists to ensure that no one willingly works with a family-killer.


QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Every runner who has that kind of person on his team should just get rid of him, one way or another, or else face any wrath that he may bring down upon them.


QUOTE (mfb)
someone who breaks the code in the eyes of the general runner populace is going to find himself out of a job, because the general runner populace will worry that someone who broke the code once might do so again.


QUOTE (mfb)
and they'd say they won't work with a family-killer, because a guy who'd do that is too dangerous to trust.


As for 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesCode Lite' well if you and hyzmarca want to believe that the Runner Community is basically Triad Lite then be my guest, but it doesn't change the fact that neither of you have managed to explain how a CodeGuidelineCode Lite that demands the targeting of a Third Party's loved ones to punish someone had managed to become widely-adopted or why something as radical as keeping track of 'Honor Debts' has never been mentioned before.
mfb
i would really suggest you cut back on the attitude a bit.

you're still treating these like hard-and-fast rules that everyone follows all the time. yes, any runner you ask would say they wouldn't work with a family-killer. yeah, the intent is that family-killers get blacklisted. but reality is more complex than that. if someone involves other peoples' families frequently, they actually might get blacklisted by the runner community at large. if they do it once, though? if they do it to someone who everybody agrees is a real asshole? reactions will be less extreme.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Also, the protection is compromised by not applying to how the outside community treats shadowrunners--your code isn't going to help you against corporate hit squads or organized crime, both of whom are probably far more likely threats than fellow shadowrunners.

i'm not sure about that. involving families makes things personal, and making things personal gets in the way of making money.

QUOTE (Ravor)
As for 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesCode Lite' well if you and hyzmarca want to believe that the Runner Community is basically Triad Lite then be my guest, but it doesn't change the fact that neither of you have managed to explain how a CodeGuidelineCode Lite that demands the targeting of a Third Party's loved ones to punish someone had managed to become widely-adopted or why something as radical as keeping track of 'Honor Debts' has never been mentioned before.

the only person to mention honor debts, in this thread, is you. no wonder you disagree with these--you keep trying to force them to be something they're not, so you can disagree with them.

i view these rules as organic. they weren't created and stamped onto the runner community from the top down, they grew up from long, hard learning experience.
Ravor
QUOTE (mfb)
i would really suggest you cut back on the attitude a bit.


And I would really suggest that you not try to claim that something was never written when it was indeed clearly written, including by you. (Now if you want to say that you didn't really mean it then that's fine, I'll accept that you misspoke before.)

QUOTE (mfb)
you're still treating these like hard-and-fast rules that everyone follows all the time. yes, any runner you ask would say they wouldn't work with a family-killer. yeah, the intent is that family-killers get blacklisted. but reality is more complex than that. if someone involves other peoples' families frequently, they actually might get blacklisted by the runner community at large. if they do it once, though? if they do it to someone who everybody agrees is a real asshole? reactions will be less extreme.


No, what I am pointing out however is what happens when the code is followed as it was clearly intended to be in hyzmarca's write-up of it.

And the very fact that your only defense to me pointing out that it is broken happens to be, "Well people don't really follow it." is rather ... telling of the code's weakness.

QUOTE (mfb)
the only person to mention honor debts, in this thread, is you. no wonder you disagree with these--you keep trying to force them to be something they're not, so you can disagree with them.


*Falls out of Chair*

Example A

A slugs B's wife, breaking her jaw.

B happens to subscribe to and believe in 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' so that means that ...

QUOTE (The Shadow-Warrior's Code as written by hyzmarca)

Rule 2: The Rule of Equity.

If one shadow warrior injures a family member of another shadow warrior in any way, the aggrieved warrior and his allies have the obligation to inflict an equal injury upon a member of the perpetrator's family, parent for parent, sibling for sibling, spouse for spouse, child for child.


... in order to live up to the code which is supposedly widely adopted and believed in by Shadowrunners B now has to hunt down A's wofe and break her jaw. If A had instead blown up her car, killed her pet, or given her an STD then B would instead "have the obligation" to do that to A's wife instead of breaking her jaw.

Example B

A kills B's sister and mails him her head.

B looks towards Example A to see what he'd have to do in order to live up to the code which he has adopted and actually believes in. However, there is a small problem, A is 'an only child'. Now what?

Well luckly for B, 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' has the answer for this type of question ...

QUOTE (The Shadow-Warrior's Code as written by hyzmarca)

Rule 3: The Substitution Rule.
Not every shadow warrior has every possibly family member. If the perpetrator lacks the appropriate familial relation for an equitable retaliation, then the aggrieved shadow warrior is obliged to retaliate against the family of one of his associates, with the closest associates being preferred. This rule exists to ensure that no one willingly works with a family-killer.


... and that answer happens to be to kill and mail C his sister's head in order to punish A.

And of course if C doesn't accept his sister's murder as being the proper course of action for B to take then he isn't living up to this code which is supposedly widely adopted by Shadowrunner's of all stripes.

So how exactly is 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' calling for anything other then a 'Honor Debt'? Because a Rose is still a Rose by any other name.

QUOTE (mfb)
i view these rules as organic. they weren't created and stamped onto the runner community from the top down, they grew up from long, hard learning experience.


Ok so you actually believe that 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' managed to grow organicaly despite the fact that actually following any part of the code other then Rule One is completely and hopelessly broken and will lead to endless strike/counterstrike involving an ever widening circle of Shadowrunners unless everyone involved happens to have an Triad Lite worldview?

Oh wait, I forgot, although 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' is widely adopted and believed in, no-one really does what the code tells them to do, because its not a hard and fast set of rules, just a set of guidelines. But let's just ignore the fact that the first time that these soft and fuzzy Guidelines are actually used for guidance then all the same hell breaks loose that would have happened if 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' didn't exist.


<><><><><>


The short of it is if 'The Shadow-Warrior's CodeGuidelinesMess' wasn't meant to be actually used then there is no point in its existance, and it breaks everytime that it is actually used outside of the Triad Lite Subset of the Shadow-Community.
mfb
there are some subjects that i'm more than willing to get worked up over. maybe even a lot of subjects. this isn't one of them. Ravor, you want to get bitchy at someone about this, it's going to have to be someone else.
hyzmarca
But you see, it is supposed to have the potential to degenerate very quickly. The policy is basically a form of MAD.

If the USSR launches nukes at us we'll launch them in retaliation. This is, of course, an insane policy. The USSR will launch more nuke and we'll launch more nukes and eventually everybody dies.

The entire point is that, because it is such a mess, no one will dare to take the first step and people who are crazy enough to take the first step will be shot by their teammates.
Ravor
And one of my reactions throughout the entire thread has been; "MAD is going to happen reguardless of whether the code is in force or not once families start to get targeted."

You see if the Runner Community as a whole is going to adopt and follow any Honor Code then it has to offer them something better then what would otherwise happen without such a Honor Code, and I haven't seen where adopting 'The Shadow-Warrior's Code' beyond Rule One would have benefits for any of my characters.
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