 Magic ammo, possessing ammunition |
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 Jun 7 2007, 05:06 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934  |
will somebody PM me when we get off the "HOW" it happens and get back to figuring out how to rule it? |
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Jun 7 2007, 05:16 PM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's easy enough. if you shoot a dual-natured creature with a dual-natured bullet, they take normal bullet damage (Immunity to Normal Weapons applies), plus whatever's making the bullet dual-natured gets to engage the target in astral combat. if you shoot an astral form with a dual-natured bullet, one of two things happens, depending on how you see astral interactions working: one, the bullet and your target bounce off each other; two, the bullet and the astral form engage in astral combat.
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Jun 7 2007, 05:18 PM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The answer is already obvious: unless something prevents the astral target from being squeezed out of the way (like having a presence in meatspace, or being badly placed amongst wards, or similar things), there's no reason for the astrally active round to be forced into astral combat. They take no damage. The only "ruling" is where exactly the target gets pushed to, and that barely matters due to how quickly it can return.
Besides, your request is ridiculous. How on earth can a good ruling be made without having the "how" hammered out? ~J |
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Jun 7 2007, 05:55 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
because its magic it cannot be explained with any reality involved, since it varies from game to game, and group to group what the "magic" is. just because they can move 1000 m/s doesn't mean their minds assimilate the data that quickly, you don't have time to register you've been shot until after you've been shot. if they don't see the attack, if you shoot a dual natured being, if you shoot an astral barrier, you engage in astral combat until such time as one astral entity is destroyed, or do you simply have one round of astral combat? |
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Jun 7 2007, 06:21 PM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I reject this view, since if we permit it there's no point to discussing the effects of magic other than that which is essentially identical to a canon example. However, I suppose I can concede that it doesn't matter in this case, since we have a situation which is essentially identical to being forced through a ward.
Doesn't matter. Pushed away.
Forced into each other. They engage in astral combat until destruction. ~J |
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Jun 7 2007, 08:42 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
would you like to start a new thread involving a "non canon" discussion of magic? I would be interested in doing that.
why? |
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Jun 7 2007, 09:00 PM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
technically, this already is a non-canon discussion, since FAB-filled bullets are never described in the game.
djinni's talking about a dual-natured target, Kage. i don't remember how astral combat between astral forms that are forced into one another are handled, but the bullet scenario would be handled the same way. edit: nevermind. FAB, now that i think of it, doesn't form any sort of astral barrier, does it? in that case, it'd attack as long as it's in contact with the target. the GM would have to determine if the bullet passes through the target or gets stuck in their body. |
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Jun 7 2007, 09:34 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
I was thinking of the spirit possessed bullet/arrow. |
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Jun 7 2007, 09:51 PM
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#34
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
The only perceivable advantage with shooting a target with imps is that the firer of the weapon can be completely mundane. The drawbacks include a few of the following: imps are not easily conjured, imps take residence in an already established focus meaning that the ammo will be excessively expensive, many imps will resent being used as ammunition, as well as others I haven't thought of yet. Why did I pick imps? Because the only other spirits that come to mind as being bound to physical objects are even less convenient to use. If you really want to fling something astrally active at a target, I suggest the Ghoul-a-pult ™. |
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Jun 7 2007, 10:07 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i suppose you could technically have an ally spirit bullet, too. regardless, the effect would be the same (and is still also technically non-canon).
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Jun 7 2007, 11:38 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
hence the arrows since they can be reused... |
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Jun 8 2007, 02:26 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
That's EXACTLY what I've been saying. Obviously noones actually reading what I'm posting and I get the feeling people don't even know what's being argued anymore. |
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Jun 8 2007, 03:07 AM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
gah! they can't dodge a bullet automatically!
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Jun 8 2007, 03:12 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
I kinda ignored it because.... people can walk around and dodge each other automatically so that means when someone throws a punch I should be able to automatically dodge it... |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:22 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
Oh, so now were getting hung up on the term automatic?
I guess this is my fault for presuming that when you said automatic you meant 'so easy as to appear automatic' rather than being literal, seeing as that's how I've described it EVERY single time. Again my mistake for thinking what I was saying was related in anyway to what you're saying, I forgot, noones reading what I post. Even if your not being literal, are you actually saying that a bullet fired on the physical plane could actually 'hit' a being that can react faster than thought, is not limited by physical senses and can move many times the speed of sound? I think he could dodge it very VERY easily. As for 'throwing a punch', ofcourse you dodge, but the other guy is moving and reacting JUST as fast as you are and is TRYING to hit you. |
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Jun 8 2007, 01:30 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
just because you move "faster than thought" doesn't mean you can think faster than thought.
he thinks of a destination and "poof" he travels there. he still thinks as fast as he did in the meat body. just point me in the direction where it states that the perceived time for the magician has been sped up from relative time and I'll accept your point. but until then I'm going to continue with my search. so to help you on your search...where does it say that an astrally projecting entity reacts faster than thought? |
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Jun 8 2007, 01:44 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
They *DO* apply though. Physical World: You punch a wall with your fist. Your fist shatters. You hurt... a lot. Astral Space: You punch a ward. Your fist hurts. You attack a ward with your weapon focus. You get hurt. <--- Still makes sense. How? That weapon focus is part of *YOUR* astral form. It's literally an extension of you projecting your will. This differs in the physical where it's a separate object as far as the wall is concerned. Look at the mechanics behind each combat. Look at the attributes involved. That should explain it clear enough. |
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Jun 8 2007, 02:13 PM
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#43
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You're incorrect. In astral space, you punch a ward, the ward punches you. The ward doesn't hurt you passively the way the wall does. The ward specifically attacks you.
~J |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:53 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not getting hung up on the word 'automatic', i'm getting hung up on the rules. the rules do not allow astral magicians to dodge bullets automatically, or even very easily--not significantly easier than they could dodge bullets on the physical plane. and if they can't dodge bullets, i have a hard time seeing them dodging astral forms travelling much faster than any bullet ever designed. darthmod, punch an iron wall. then punch a steel wall. does punching the steel wall hurt more than punching the iron wall? no, despite the fact that steel is stronger than iron. compare this to attacking a ward: if you fail in your attack against a force 1 ward, it's not going to hurt very much. if you fail in your attack against a force 12 ward, it might kill you. furthermore, even if you manage to punch your way through an iron wall, your fist is still likely to be broken. if you punch your way through a force 12 ward, you come through completely unscathed. the only point of comparison between astral barriers and physical walls is that if you punch them, you might get hurt. if you punch a fire, you might also get hurt. but it's not for the same reason as if you punched a wall, is it? attacking astral barriers works under different basic laws than punching physical walls. the reason punching an astral barrier can hurt you is not the same as the reason why punching a physical wall can hurt you. how do i know? because the rules for each are completely different.
also true in soviet russia! |
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Jun 9 2007, 07:21 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
Your physical Reaction is the average of your physical speed, quickness, and your mental speed, intelligence. Astral reaction is your intelligence PLUS 20. That's not an insignificant number, what's your explanation for it? Look, maybe I missed it, but I don't remember ever seeing rules for astral traffic, which means it's a none issue. This means that dodging stuff which isn't trying to hit you must be very easy, because if as people believe, collisions occur but simply don't hurt you, you could still get knocked offcourse, which in a high traffic area WOULD be an issue.
...Again, clearly I've missed something. Where are these rules for astral forms dodging bullets and their comparison to dodging bullets on the physical plane? I'd swear they don't exsist, because it's a non-issue, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, just give me a page number. I'd also like the page number for the rules on avoiding astral traffic while your at it.
I've been trying to ignore it because this isn't actually relevant to my analogy, but it's too ridiculous. The only reson the 2 things hurt the same is because once you reach a certain level of pain, you stop applying force. In a collision, the less force one object can absorb due to factors like strength and hardness, the more the other object will have to absorb. Forget physics, try applying some common sense. The only point of the wall analogy was that in both cases an INANIMATE object reacted to an 'attack' when brought into conflict without the need for a concious decision to do so. NOTHING ELSE. The exact nature of said conflict is NOT the point, so stop trying to use that to prove it wrong, it does not APPLY. The only point is that a conflict occurs without a concious decision to do so, for no other reason than the two things move into conflict with each other.
YES, this is because it does not require a concious effort to engage in astral combat, this is the point I'm trying to make. It 'attacks' you for no other reason than it has force and you are coming into conflict with it. The reverse should also be true. If an object with force comes into conflict with something else with force, then an astral combat occurs, without any concious decision to do so. This idea is supported by the pressing though barriers rules. Hence, even though momentum and other physical factors are NOT an issue, when an object with force, like a dual natured bullet, is brought into conflict with something else an astral conflict will occur. Now this is the point where people go 'what about astral traffic then, if a collision is all thats needed for combat to occur, why aren't their rules for it happening accidentally?'. Because it's easy to dodge stuff etc, thus the explanation comes full circle and every step is logical deduced from each other point and the rules. The conclusion being that a DN Bullet will indeed be forced into astral combat with an astral form when they collide, BUT that a purely astral form can simply dodge, still leaving mundanes with a potential anti-materialised spirit weapon. At no point does the 'pushed aside' 'squeezed out of the way' or 'knocked back' theory make sense to me, fit into my understanding of the rules as shown above, or even have any necessary reason to exsist. But like I said I can admit when I'm wrong, show me the page number, quote the passage, and I'll gladly admit that all the above is meaningless. Either way, I don't think I can explain what I'm saying anymore clearly than that. |
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Jun 9 2007, 07:54 AM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, there's the fact that astral characters don't get any special bonus to dodge physical attacks from dual-natured beings. if you can't dodge a fist, then you can't dodge a bullet, and you certainly can't dodge an astral form travelling at top speed. the rules say that the nature of the astral plane makes ranged attacks moot--but if they're moot because astral mages can dodge bullets, then why can't they dodge fists and swords even more easily? it seems to me that ranged attacks are moot because ranged attacks are inherently physical; if you could make a ranged attack dual, it wouldn't be moot anymore. but that's conjecture. as for running into another astral form, it's not going to knock you way off course if--as i've postulated--there's no inertia. two astral forms that run into one another are only going to be pushed just far enough out of each others' way that they can both continue in the direction they were heading to begin with. getting thrown way off-course would require that the energy of impact remain with the impactees, which basically equals inertia. no inertia, no energy retention.
dude, your analogy is ridiculous! punching a ward and punching a wall match up on exactly one point, and it's not even a good match: in either case, you might get hurt. that's it. how much you'll get hurt, how the relative toughness of the barrier affects the outcome, the use of tools, the effects of success, the effects of failure--everything else about these situations is completely different in each case. a much, much better analogy would be punching a fire, as i said above. when you punch a fire, how hard you punch has no effect on how much you get hurt--all that matters is how hot the fire is. the analogy has obvious shortcomings, of course; you can't really punch a fire hard enough to put it out, and--as in punching a wall--using a tool to attack the fire will generally keep you from getting hurt; likewise, even if you punch the fire really hard, you'll get hurt anyway. still, as a basic model for "why does it hurt when i attack a ward", it's better than punching a wall.
which is only relevant when the astral forms are forced into conflict. the rules more strongly support the no-inertia model than the easy-dodge model. in the no-inertia model, shooting someone does not force a conflict because the target just gets pushed out of the way. and before you ask 'why don't melee attacks from dual creatures just push astral targets out of the way', the reason is that a melee attack carries the attacker's intent. intent is important, as demonstrated in the spirit combat rules. a bullet, even a dual-natured bullet, carries no intent because there's no connection to the shooter. |
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Jun 9 2007, 03:16 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
the intent is with the posessing spirit, with your description inanimate dual natured ammo would push the target away but the spirit being that his job it to attack means he would initiate the combat.
one more thing... ...but...but...but fire is alive. putting it out would be murder! |
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Jun 9 2007, 07:02 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if you had a spirit-possessed bullet, and you convinced it to attack whoever you shot, you're correct--the spirit would be able to engage astral targets. there's only one way i'm aware of to have a spirit-bullet, though, and that's to stick your ally spirit into one (or have it assume the form of a bullet, i guess). the obeyifa thing i mentioned won't work--the obeyifa has to be holding the totem for the spirit to do stuff. a FAB-filled bullet wouldn't work against astral forms, only dual creatures.
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Jun 9 2007, 07:30 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
okay so....arrow with a trailing line then? |
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Jun 11 2007, 10:55 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
You saying this does not make it so. As an aside I know theres no inertia, but it's irrellevant to my argument. Nothing in the rules more strongly supports your model, only your interpretation of them. This is why I ask for book references, like this one:
Sounds like it's easy to dodge stuff in astral to me.
You don't need bonuses when it's so easy you don't even need to make a test for it. Again, a lack of rules indicates it's a non issue in this case.
No test needed, in simply does. A DN creature, limited by it's physical form cannot engage an astral entity in astral combat unless said astral entity allows it to. The only time a DN being can get a hit in, so to speak, is in response to being attacked. The flavour reason could be that when someone attacks you there's an element of predictability to the movements, or that they have to get in close enough that hitting becomes simple. That aside it's a balance issue. The game doesn't let you sling astral spells for free, with physical drain rather than regular, in astral, and sniping in astal combat would be worse. It's no different to someone being able to hit a move-by-wire-4 cyber ninja with maxed quickness who gets 2 actions before everyone else, IF he tries to engage you in melee combat and your better/luckier in the opposed test. That pretty much nerfs the rest of your argument re dodging bullets and other astral forms, and did I happen to mention the book says this:
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For starters, I never said WAY offcourse. Secondly, if you adopt a vector model (with NO inertia), when 2 beings collide the would travel in the sum of there intended direction for however far it took them to realise, which considering the great speeds, could be a significant distance in minimal time. Even if we assume that they simply STOP, there will still be consequences. The obvious is that in a high traffic area you will be stopping alot, the other is, people don't like being stopped or bumped into. EVEN if you didn't stop and applied some cartoony, stretchy interaction, aside from being silly, it would still brobably annoy people. Take for example a mage with the vindictive flaw, I'm pretty sure getting bumped into in astral space is exactly the kind of thing that would set him off. But again, there's no rules for astral traffic, it's not even mentioned anywhere I've read, and is logically NOT AN ISSUE. The complete absence to reference to it doesn't just mean it's not a big deal to collide with someone, it means it doesn't happen. And again:
It's only meant to match up on ONE POINT, that's precisely WHY it's pointless to argue any of the other points. It's like I've said "That blue ball and that blue brick are the same colour." and you're replying "What? They're completely different, that ball is round, and the brick is square, and the ball bounces on the grass, but the brick won't, and the grass is green!" It's all completely irrellevant. Ofcourse your arguments being irrelevant wasn't even the most ridiculous part, it was that they were WRONG anyway. ALL I was trying to show is that in both situations, inanimate objects act againts things without a conscious decision to do so, INTENT is NOT a prerequesite for astral combat.
Finally, atleast your arguing the point now. Only problem is intent is not important, if it was, why does an inanimate, non-intelligent object like an astral barrier ATTACK you? Or why would a FAB bullet work on a DN being? Becuase intent is NOT important.
Like I said, you saying this does not make it so. In your model, astral combat requires intent, except for when it doesn't. In mine, intent is never needed. Your own model contradicts itself, how can you not see the flaw in this? In your model astral collisions occur, but simply don't do anything. As demonstrated, this doesn't make sense and there's nothing in the rules to back it up. In mine astral collisions tend to not happen, not accidentally anyway, and IS backed up by the book. Look, I can see how your model can explain some of the things that happen in the game, but bottom line, it doesn't explain everything and doesn't "jive" with ALL the material in the BBB, or even itself. My model does, it matches the material in the book and is congruent top to bottom. How you can't see this, or more accurately WHY you won't, I don't understand. On magic ammo, a possessed bullet (or arrow) seems a wasted effort, even if it works. If you want something a mage can make and give to his mundane friends, use anchoring foci. A reusable foci arrow with a detection spell and a manaball or something linked to it is going to be far more useful, and possibly effective, than an arrow, with a line to the oyebifa, and a spirit in it. Even so, DN gear is vulnerable to astral attack. The Ultimate solution is a non-astrally active substance, that simply removes the 'normality' from weapons. Ofcourse if such a substance exsisted in canon it surely would have been discovered by now (in game) and would have been mentioned, but outside of that, alchemical stuff might be the place to start negotiations with a GM. If orichalcum doesn't do it, nothing will. |
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