saw the thread in SR4, searched here couldn't find anything.
is there a way to have a spirit possess a bullet or an arrow? in SR3?
Full Version: Magic ammo
an obeyifa might, i'd have to check the specific rules. it wouldn't do you any good, though--the bullet would not do damage to astral entities, because in SR3, astral physics don't work that way. high-speed astral collisions don't do damage to astral entities.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| an obeyifa might, i'd have to check the specific rules. it wouldn't do you any good, though--the bullet would not do damage to astral entities, because in SR3, astral physics don't work that way. high-speed astral collisions don't do damage to astral entities. |
obeyifa?
I'm more looking at the immunity to normal weapons aspect.
does the astral entity not take damage because there's a rule or lack of rules for it?
obeyifas are described in MitS, in the first chapter. i forget what page. basically, instead of summoning spirits that fly around and do stuff, they summon spirits into prepared totems. i think the totem has to be touching the obeyifa to work, though.
there simply aren't any rules for hurting astral/dual entities with dual-natured objects, except in melee. the rules for astral travel include no mention of taking damage from collision, which is what this would be.
there simply aren't any rules for hurting astral/dual entities with dual-natured objects, except in melee. the rules for astral travel include no mention of taking damage from collision, which is what this would be.
magic bullets have been one of the holy grails of R&D&M back to first ed in '89 (gods have we been discussing this that long?) but so far no magic missles, as soon as they leave the spell slinger's hand they are no longer active.
I think people have assumed things which don't actually exsist in the rules. Astral collisions don't occur due to a lack of physics or what have you, they don't occur because it's REALLY easy to dodge things when you can move and react at the speed of thought.
Now I'm not saying normal phyics apply, but there is some interaction. Take attacking an astral barrier for example, it's a completely inanimate oject, except it has force and trying to attack one with high force, will result in you taking damage and getting your astral presence disrupted (SR3 pg176). Now call me simple, but that sounds to me alot like the very physical act of punching a wall and hurting your fist becuase it's stronger than you.
This becomes especially true when you're dealing with dual natured stuff. Dual Natured things are limited by their physical bodies, for example they do STRENGTH M damage in Astral Combat (SR3 p176), and importantly cant simply dodge things at the speed of thought. So if you take a dual natured being, like a materialised spirit, and physical hit it with something else dual natured you essentially force the 2 things into astral combat, regardless of whether or not your still holding it (like a dual natured bullet). MiTS, pg 83, "Under certain circumstances, a dual-natured item or person may be forced into conflict with an astral barrier through physical momentum." It's not a huge leap in logic to assume 2 dual-natured objects can be forced into conflict by physical momentum aswell.
If you can somehow produce an independantly dual natured bullet, and fire it at a materialised spirit the 2 are forced into astral combat and damage can be done. Now this by no means makes it neccessarily effective (making a dual natured bullet is as simple as using FAB in capsule rounds, but making a dual natured bullet with enough FORCE to actually do anything, is another matter entirely), but it certainly is possible.
Now I'm not saying normal phyics apply, but there is some interaction. Take attacking an astral barrier for example, it's a completely inanimate oject, except it has force and trying to attack one with high force, will result in you taking damage and getting your astral presence disrupted (SR3 pg176). Now call me simple, but that sounds to me alot like the very physical act of punching a wall and hurting your fist becuase it's stronger than you.
This becomes especially true when you're dealing with dual natured stuff. Dual Natured things are limited by their physical bodies, for example they do STRENGTH M damage in Astral Combat (SR3 p176), and importantly cant simply dodge things at the speed of thought. So if you take a dual natured being, like a materialised spirit, and physical hit it with something else dual natured you essentially force the 2 things into astral combat, regardless of whether or not your still holding it (like a dual natured bullet). MiTS, pg 83, "Under certain circumstances, a dual-natured item or person may be forced into conflict with an astral barrier through physical momentum." It's not a huge leap in logic to assume 2 dual-natured objects can be forced into conflict by physical momentum aswell.
If you can somehow produce an independantly dual natured bullet, and fire it at a materialised spirit the 2 are forced into astral combat and damage can be done. Now this by no means makes it neccessarily effective (making a dual natured bullet is as simple as using FAB in capsule rounds, but making a dual natured bullet with enough FORCE to actually do anything, is another matter entirely), but it certainly is possible.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlueOmega) |
| Take attacking an astral barrier for example, it's a completely inanimate oject, except it has force and trying to attack one with high force, will result in you taking damage and getting your astral presence disrupted (SR3 pg176). Now call me simple, but that sounds to me alot like the very physical act of punching a wall and hurting your fist becuase it's stronger than you. |
does not compute. you take the same damage whether you attack the barrier with your astral fist or with the astral form of your longspear weapon focus.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Jun 6 2007, 02:16 AM) |
| (making a dual natured bullet is as simple as using FAB in capsule rounds, but making a dual natured bullet with enough FORCE to actually do anything, is another matter entirely), but it certainly is possible. |
that's the whole aspect of the discussion of spirits.
making the force high enough that it matters.
mfb, the analogy is still the same, if you make a physical attack and it completely rebounds, it hurts...alot...
then why don't you take damage from attacking a physical wall with a physical spear, and failing? you're implying that every time you try and fail to attack an astral barrier with an astral spear, the spear bounces off and smacks you in the face or something. why should that be true?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| then why don't you take damage from attacking a physical wall with a physical spear, and failing? you're implying that every time you try and fail to attack an astral barrier with an astral spear, the spear bounces off and smacks you in the face or something. why should that be true? |
that's why its an analogy...
the analogy does not make sense. if you hit a wall with your fist, there is a clear reason, based in physics, for why your fist hurts afterwards--your fist, which is soft, collided with the wall, which is hard. if you're attacking a ward with a spear, physics says it's not going to hurt you. the reason a ward can hurt you, even if you attack it with a spear, is because the ward is attacking you at the same time you're attacking it. that's not a collision, that's active combat.
the most you could get is a bullet that makes astral attacks against dual-natured targets. against astral targets, unless the astral form is trapped somehow, they're just going to get shoved out of the way by the bullet because there's no inertia on the astral. the bullet won't make an attack against them because, rather than being forced into conflict, it will just push them aside or back.
the most you could get is a bullet that makes astral attacks against dual-natured targets. against astral targets, unless the astral form is trapped somehow, they're just going to get shoved out of the way by the bullet because there's no inertia on the astral. the bullet won't make an attack against them because, rather than being forced into conflict, it will just push them aside or back.
you're completely missing the point, so I'll just drop it.
For what it's worth, I must be as well.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| For what it's worth, I must be as well. ~J |
he's trying to describe magic with physics.
er, no, i'm actually doing the exact opposite. i'm pointing out that, judging from the way the rules work, physics don't apply on the astral plane.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 6 2007, 06:27 PM) |
| er, no, i'm actually doing the exact opposite. i'm pointing out that, judging from the way the rules work, physics don't apply on the astral plane. |
| QUOTE |
| if you're attacking a ward with a spear, physics says it's not going to hurt you. |
yes you are.
an analogy is not a defined and exact instance of something hence you are comparing it.
using an active focus that you have bonded to, ties that focus into your spirit so attacking anything with it is like attacking with your spirit. physics do not apply
for the love of mike. my point is that since physics says the ward won't hurt you if you attack it with a spear, then physics must not apply--since the ward actually can hurt you when you attack it with a spear.
look, you misunderstood what i was saying, okay? DuckEgg was suggesting that physics, as we know them on the physical plane, apply in astral space. i was disagreeing with him. i'm saying now what i've been saying this whole thread, and said in the SR4 thread: physics don't apply on the astral.
look, you misunderstood what i was saying, okay? DuckEgg was suggesting that physics, as we know them on the physical plane, apply in astral space. i was disagreeing with him. i'm saying now what i've been saying this whole thread, and said in the SR4 thread: physics don't apply on the astral.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| look, you misunderstood what i was saying, okay? |
okay misunderstanding then, back to the topic
how powerful of a spirit does it have to be to be effective? since firing it at something and making contact uses the "forced into astral combat" method
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| he's trying to describe magic with physics. |
Yeah, that's the correct approach. However, he's also explicitly saying that analogies that involve taking advantage of momentum fail, since momentum clearly (from examples in canon) does not apply on the astral.
~J
| QUOTE |
| for the love of mike. my point is that since physics says the ward won't hurt you if you attack it with a spear, then physics must not apply--since the ward actually can hurt you when you attack it with a spear. |
Where did you study physics? Or for that matter, experience reality?
Hit a hard enough object with something, and when it doesn't give way or absorb the kinetic energy (an elastic collision) the KE will be reflected back to you and in all likelyhood, it will hurt. Physics very much says that the ward will hurt you if you hit it with a spear. And that's with out taking into account that you can let go of a sledgehammer or something as you swing so that it absorbs the KE instead of your body but a weapon focus is BONDED to your very being.
| QUOTE |
| look, you misunderstood what i was saying, okay? DuckEgg was suggesting that physics, as we know them on the physical plane, apply in astral space. i was disagreeing with him. |
Considering I never said that, infact I very specifically said "I'm not saying normal phyics apply", it's pretty easy to misunderstand you. I'll try again. I can't find anywhere where it say astral objects just 'push each other aside or back', which by the way, would be the result of a physical collision anyway, like if you physically walked into someone. For physics to not apply at all they would have to simply pass through each other which very much DOES NOT happen. What I CAN find is description about it being very easy to dodge stuff in astral (therefore no accisdental astral collisions), what I find in the RULES is reference to astrally active objects being forced into 'astral combat' when thay lack the ability to dodge each other. These are things determined by 'how the rules work'. As for your asertation that the most you could hope for is a bullet that makes astral attacks against dual natured things, or trapped astral forms, that's EXACTLY what I wrote. This not a problem though, A spirit has to materialise and become dual natured to attack someone on the physical plane. The most annoying thing to mundanes is not being able to see astral security, not because it can hurt you, but becuase it can go get back up or alert other security, which attacking a spirit/elemental does anyway since the summoning mage becomes instantly aware. Again astral active things can be "forced into conflict... through physical momentum". That's not something I've extrapolated, it's written down in a rule book. Yes it's speaking specifically of dual natured stuff and wards, but again, it no great leap from that to DN bullets.
Again, read carefully, I'm NOT saying that 'momentum' affects the nature of the conflict like it would in the physical world, ONLY that it can cause a conflict to occur in the first place, and ONLY when the objects ar unable to dodge.
Personally I like the idea of a mundane group dropping canisters of FAB2 (stops fast movement, lets you see astral forms) and when spirits try to materialise to attack, (complex action) the group is ready for them and opens up, with DN rounds. Let's not forget a play balance issue of the big bad insect spirits. Ohhh, so scary... despite being the easiest spirit type to kill thanks to a handy vulnerabilty to insecticide. Why people seem so dead set against allowing a mundane alternative for dealing with other spirits is beyond me, especially when it's based on rules that don't exsist.
As for making them useful. I geuss this mainly depends on what your GM goes for. How much room does force X dual natured item take up? Now a FAB cloud takes up lots of space per force, but is so spread out it's barely even noticeable, and in walls (strain 2) they have a force rating seemingly independant of size, with consistent force value over the whole area of the wall. The other issue is how advanced is gun technology or how hardy is whatever your firing? Will what ever your firing survive being shot out of a gun? These are issues that can be overcome technologically within the game and just because one GM rules the technology doesn't exsist (yet) doesn't mean it can't happen. Personally I would allow it, seeing as high force whatever is going to be costly anyway, before factoring in uber-tech street index. The only other issue is, do you force an 'astal combat' or use the 'pressing through a barrier' rules?
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| Hit a hard enough object with something, and when it doesn't give way or absorb the kinetic energy (an elastic collision) the KE will be reflected back to you and in all likelyhood, it will hurt. Physics very much says that the ward will hurt you if you hit it with a spear. And that's with out taking into account that you can let go of a sledgehammer or something as you swing so that it absorbs the KE instead of your body but a weapon focus is BONDED to your very being. |
yes, but it's useless and confusing to try and equate it with real-world physics. the amount of damage you take when you fail attacking a ward has nothing at all to do with how hard you swing. for that matter, if you succeed in attacking a ward, you take no damage at all. thinking of it in terms of physical collisions doesn't work at all, because the results are completely different.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| I can't find anywhere where it say astral objects just 'push each other aside or back', which by the way, would be the result of a physical collision anyway, like if you physically walked into someone. For physics to not apply at all they would have to simply pass through each other which very much DOES NOT happen. |
sorry for misrepresenting you. i was trying to explain to djinni what his was mistaken over; correctly summing up your side of the argument wasn't a priority.
when i talk about collisions, i'm specifically talking about taking (or giving) damage based on velocity and mass. i'm saying that such collisions don't happen on the astral plane because there is no mass, nor anything really analogous to it; and there is no inertia, nor anything really analogous to that. the reason i say there is no inertia is because of the rate of acceleration that is possible. a starting magician can instantly accelerate to speeds much, much faster than the fastest bullet. if inertia does exist, it's so minute that it may as well not exist.
so let's say a dual-natured bullet somehow manages to run into a mage's astral form. the astral mage and the bullet cannot occupy the same space. the mage has no inertia. so when the bullet rams into him, it should shove him out of the way unless the mage, for some reason, chooses (in the microsecond he has to make such a decision) to not move.
the only reason they would come into conflict is if one or the other were unable to give way for some reason. a dual critter trapped in an elevator that passes through a ward is one example.
None of which actually contradicts anything I was saying.
When I'm talking about collisions, I'm talking about 2 things colliding and interacting, just because the 2 things don't have mass doesn't mean they don't interact. Trying to equate to 'real-world physics' isn't useless or confusing. I could have tried to use the interaction of photons, but I don't think that would have helped. I don't care if ALL the effects of hiitng a wall aren't the same as hitting an astral barrier (djinni correctly pointed out, it's an analogy), the point was to illustrate what I consider to be a misconception about 'astral combat', that being that it's anything other than 2 forces colliding an interacting. People seem to have it in their heads that 'astral combat' is some very complicated interaction, an idea which probably comes from terminology, but an astral barrier is an INANIMATE object, being on the astral doesn't change this. It can't fight back, yet it does damage, because when 2 objects collide (whether they have mass or are composed of pure energy) interact with each other automatically. It does not require for both, or even one of the object/beings involved to 'conciously' engage the other, it just happens.
Astral collisions don't occur like this though simply because it's easy to avoid accidental collision when anything moving does so at the speed of thought (and also reacts at the speed of thought, possibly faster seeing as astral thought isn't limited by the make up of your physical brain, and isn't dependant on the limitations of normal vision) or that whilst astral collisions cause an interaction they are so easily avoided (in the astral) that they never occur, atleast not accidentally. Think about it, under your logic of things getting 'pushed aside or back' and saying collisions do occur but they have no appreciable affect, astral travel would be a pain, your heading inside a building to scope it out and suddenly you get side swiped by some joker fast traveling and a few moments later your on the other side of the planet. It didn't 'hurt' but it would get very annoying. The mage in your example doesn't get pushed out of the way, he simply dodges it, there's no logical reason for him to decide to not dodge it.
Again, momentum/inertia don't affect the nature of collisions in astral, and the collisions are very EASY to avoid, but to say that when collisions do occur that there is no effect doesn't make sense. The ONLY correlation I'm making is that collisions can occur because 2 astral forms can't occupy the same space, and that when that happens 2 opposing forces are forced to interact, and damage can occur as a result. Again this is supported by wards and other non-sentient astral objects being able to damage you when you attack them. Nothing I've seen in cannon contradicts this view, with the POSSIBLE exception of the use of the term 'astral combat' which a person COULD take to imply something more than a simple collision, used to describe nearly all such collisions, but I think deriving anything more from that than the implication that you use the same rules for multiple things is a little absurd.
Yes, all this means that a 'magic bullet' is only effective when the astral form is restrained somehow, either by it's physical form as a DN critter or materialised spirit or some other means, as a pure astral form can dodge bullets quite easily, but something having limited effectiveness is not now, nor shall it ever be a reason it CAN'T be done, only that perhaps it shouldn't be done.
I for one think, that putting aside rules (which I believe support my view regardless) or setting (which I don't think is an issue in this case), that if the drawbacks balance or exceed the benefits, why not let a player do it? Hell, we haven't even gotten into the idea that simply carrying gear that is DN is a liability when dealing with spirits, yet. A particularly bastardly GM could have an astral spirit grab your physical gun by the DN ammo and beat your physical head in with it, without actually leaving the astral.
When I'm talking about collisions, I'm talking about 2 things colliding and interacting, just because the 2 things don't have mass doesn't mean they don't interact. Trying to equate to 'real-world physics' isn't useless or confusing. I could have tried to use the interaction of photons, but I don't think that would have helped. I don't care if ALL the effects of hiitng a wall aren't the same as hitting an astral barrier (djinni correctly pointed out, it's an analogy), the point was to illustrate what I consider to be a misconception about 'astral combat', that being that it's anything other than 2 forces colliding an interacting. People seem to have it in their heads that 'astral combat' is some very complicated interaction, an idea which probably comes from terminology, but an astral barrier is an INANIMATE object, being on the astral doesn't change this. It can't fight back, yet it does damage, because when 2 objects collide (whether they have mass or are composed of pure energy) interact with each other automatically. It does not require for both, or even one of the object/beings involved to 'conciously' engage the other, it just happens.
Astral collisions don't occur like this though simply because it's easy to avoid accidental collision when anything moving does so at the speed of thought (and also reacts at the speed of thought, possibly faster seeing as astral thought isn't limited by the make up of your physical brain, and isn't dependant on the limitations of normal vision) or that whilst astral collisions cause an interaction they are so easily avoided (in the astral) that they never occur, atleast not accidentally. Think about it, under your logic of things getting 'pushed aside or back' and saying collisions do occur but they have no appreciable affect, astral travel would be a pain, your heading inside a building to scope it out and suddenly you get side swiped by some joker fast traveling and a few moments later your on the other side of the planet. It didn't 'hurt' but it would get very annoying. The mage in your example doesn't get pushed out of the way, he simply dodges it, there's no logical reason for him to decide to not dodge it.
Again, momentum/inertia don't affect the nature of collisions in astral, and the collisions are very EASY to avoid, but to say that when collisions do occur that there is no effect doesn't make sense. The ONLY correlation I'm making is that collisions can occur because 2 astral forms can't occupy the same space, and that when that happens 2 opposing forces are forced to interact, and damage can occur as a result. Again this is supported by wards and other non-sentient astral objects being able to damage you when you attack them. Nothing I've seen in cannon contradicts this view, with the POSSIBLE exception of the use of the term 'astral combat' which a person COULD take to imply something more than a simple collision, used to describe nearly all such collisions, but I think deriving anything more from that than the implication that you use the same rules for multiple things is a little absurd.
Yes, all this means that a 'magic bullet' is only effective when the astral form is restrained somehow, either by it's physical form as a DN critter or materialised spirit or some other means, as a pure astral form can dodge bullets quite easily, but something having limited effectiveness is not now, nor shall it ever be a reason it CAN'T be done, only that perhaps it shouldn't be done.
I for one think, that putting aside rules (which I believe support my view regardless) or setting (which I don't think is an issue in this case), that if the drawbacks balance or exceed the benefits, why not let a player do it? Hell, we haven't even gotten into the idea that simply carrying gear that is DN is a liability when dealing with spirits, yet. A particularly bastardly GM could have an astral spirit grab your physical gun by the DN ammo and beat your physical head in with it, without actually leaving the astral.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| Astral collisions don't occur like this though simply because it's easy to avoid accidental collision when anything moving does so at the speed of thought (and also reacts at the speed of thought, possibly faster seeing as astral thought isn't limited by the make up of your physical brain, and isn't dependant on the limitations of normal vision) or that whilst astral collisions cause an interaction they are so easily avoided (in the astral) that they never occur, atleast not accidentally. Think about it, under your logic of things getting 'pushed aside or back' and saying collisions do occur but they have no appreciable affect, astral travel would be a pain, your heading inside a building to scope it out and suddenly you get side swiped by some joker fast traveling and a few moments later your on the other side of the planet. It didn't 'hurt' but it would get very annoying. The mage in your example doesn't get pushed out of the way, he simply dodges it, there's no logical reason for him to decide to not dodge it. |
this does not jive with the rules. if this were true, it would be impossible to shoot the astral form of a mage. bullets (7.62x39mm is the specific round i used to calculate) travel more than seven times slower than your average mage. if two astral mages can dodge each other automatically, an astral mage should also be able to dodge a bullet automatically.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| People seem to have it in their heads that 'astral combat' is some very complicated interaction, an idea which probably comes from terminology, but an astral barrier is an INANIMATE object, being on the astral doesn't change this. It can't fight back, yet it does damage, because when 2 objects collide (whether they have mass or are composed of pure energy) interact with each other automatically. It does not require for both, or even one of the object/beings involved to 'conciously' engage the other, it just happens. |
again, this doesn't fully jive with the rules. astral barriers make an attack roll when you try to get through them. the stronger the barrier, the more it hurts you. this bears very little relationship to how things work in the physical world. in the physical, punching a steel wall and punching a brick wall will result in the same amount of damage to your fist.
Not actually true--the brick wall will generally be rougher and less yielding (or just rougher), and thus will probably cause more damage.
~J
~J
yeah, but you see what i mean--if the wall is harder than your fist, then it doesn't generally matter how much harder it is. make it an iron wall and a steel wall, instead of brick vs iron.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Not actually true--the brick wall will generally be rougher and less yielding (or just rougher), and thus will probably cause more damage. ~J |
will somebody PM me when we get off the "HOW" it happens and get back to figuring out how to rule it?
that's easy enough. if you shoot a dual-natured creature with a dual-natured bullet, they take normal bullet damage (Immunity to Normal Weapons applies), plus whatever's making the bullet dual-natured gets to engage the target in astral combat. if you shoot an astral form with a dual-natured bullet, one of two things happens, depending on how you see astral interactions working: one, the bullet and your target bounce off each other; two, the bullet and the astral form engage in astral combat.
The answer is already obvious: unless something prevents the astral target from being squeezed out of the way (like having a presence in meatspace, or being badly placed amongst wards, or similar things), there's no reason for the astrally active round to be forced into astral combat. They take no damage. The only "ruling" is where exactly the target gets pushed to, and that barely matters due to how quickly it can return.
Besides, your request is ridiculous. How on earth can a good ruling be made without having the "how" hammered out?
~J
Besides, your request is ridiculous. How on earth can a good ruling be made without having the "how" hammered out?
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Besides, your request is ridiculous. How on earth can a good ruling be made without having the "how" hammered out? |
because its magic it cannot be explained with any reality involved, since it varies from game to game, and group to group what the "magic" is.
just because they can move 1000 m/s doesn't mean their minds assimilate the data that quickly, you don't have time to register you've been shot until after you've been shot.
if they don't see the attack, if you shoot a dual natured being, if you shoot an astral barrier, you engage in astral combat until such time as one astral entity is destroyed, or do you simply have one round of astral combat?
| QUOTE (djinni @ Jun 7 2007, 12:55 PM) | ||
because its magic it cannot be explained with any reality involved, since it varies from game to game, and group to group what the "magic" is. |
I reject this view, since if we permit it there's no point to discussing the effects of magic other than that which is essentially identical to a canon example. However, I suppose I can concede that it doesn't matter in this case, since we have a situation which is essentially identical to being forced through a ward.
| QUOTE |
| if they don't see the attack |
Doesn't matter. Pushed away.
| QUOTE |
| if you shoot a dual natured being, if you shoot an astral barrier |
Forced into each other. They engage in astral combat until destruction.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I reject this view, since if we permit it there's no point to discussing the effects of magic other than that which is essentially identical to a canon example. However, I suppose I can concede that it doesn't matter in this case, since we have a situation which is essentially identical to being forced through a ward. |
would you like to start a new thread involving a "non canon" discussion of magic? I would be interested in doing that.
| QUOTE |
| Doesn't matter. Pushed away. |
why?
technically, this already is a non-canon discussion, since FAB-filled bullets are never described in the game.
djinni's talking about a dual-natured target, Kage. i don't remember how astral combat between astral forms that are forced into one another are handled, but the bullet scenario would be handled the same way.
edit: nevermind. FAB, now that i think of it, doesn't form any sort of astral barrier, does it? in that case, it'd attack as long as it's in contact with the target. the GM would have to determine if the bullet passes through the target or gets stuck in their body.
djinni's talking about a dual-natured target, Kage. i don't remember how astral combat between astral forms that are forced into one another are handled, but the bullet scenario would be handled the same way.
edit: nevermind. FAB, now that i think of it, doesn't form any sort of astral barrier, does it? in that case, it'd attack as long as it's in contact with the target. the GM would have to determine if the bullet passes through the target or gets stuck in their body.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| technically, this already is a non-canon discussion, since FAB-filled bullets are never described in the game. |
I was thinking of the spirit possessed bullet/arrow.
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| I was thinking of the spirit possessed bullet/arrow. |
The only perceivable advantage with shooting a target with imps is that the firer of the weapon can be completely mundane. The drawbacks include a few of the following: imps are not easily conjured, imps take residence in an already established focus meaning that the ammo will be excessively expensive, many imps will resent being used as ammunition, as well as others I haven't thought of yet.
Why did I pick imps? Because the only other spirits that come to mind as being bound to physical objects are even less convenient to use.
If you really want to fling something astrally active at a target, I suggest the Ghoul-a-pult ™.
i suppose you could technically have an ally spirit bullet, too. regardless, the effect would be the same (and is still also technically non-canon).
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| meaning that the ammo will be excessively expensive, |
hence the arrows since they can be reused...
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 7 2007, 05:38 AM) |
| if two astral mages can dodge each other automatically, an astral mage should also be able to dodge a bullet automatically. |
That's EXACTLY what I've been saying.
Obviously noones actually reading what I'm posting and I get the feeling people don't even know what's being argued anymore.
gah! they can't dodge a bullet automatically!
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| That's EXACTLY what I've been saying. |
I kinda ignored it because....
people can walk around and dodge each other automatically so that means when someone throws a punch I should be able to automatically dodge it...
Oh, so now were getting hung up on the term automatic?
I guess this is my fault for presuming that when you said automatic you meant 'so easy as to appear automatic' rather than being literal, seeing as that's how I've described it EVERY single time. Again my mistake for thinking what I was saying was related in anyway to what you're saying, I forgot, noones reading what I post.
Even if your not being literal, are you actually saying that a bullet fired on the physical plane could actually 'hit' a being that can react faster than thought, is not limited by physical senses and can move many times the speed of sound? I think he could dodge it very VERY easily.
As for 'throwing a punch', ofcourse you dodge, but the other guy is moving and reacting JUST as fast as you are and is TRYING to hit you.
I guess this is my fault for presuming that when you said automatic you meant 'so easy as to appear automatic' rather than being literal, seeing as that's how I've described it EVERY single time. Again my mistake for thinking what I was saying was related in anyway to what you're saying, I forgot, noones reading what I post.
Even if your not being literal, are you actually saying that a bullet fired on the physical plane could actually 'hit' a being that can react faster than thought, is not limited by physical senses and can move many times the speed of sound? I think he could dodge it very VERY easily.
As for 'throwing a punch', ofcourse you dodge, but the other guy is moving and reacting JUST as fast as you are and is TRYING to hit you.
just because you move "faster than thought" doesn't mean you can think faster than thought.
he thinks of a destination and "poof" he travels there. he still thinks as fast as he did in the meat body.
just point me in the direction where it states that the perceived time for the magician has been sped up from relative time and I'll accept your point. but until then I'm going to continue with my search.
so to help you on your search...where does it say that an astrally projecting entity reacts faster than thought?
he thinks of a destination and "poof" he travels there. he still thinks as fast as he did in the meat body.
just point me in the direction where it states that the perceived time for the magician has been sped up from relative time and I'll accept your point. but until then I'm going to continue with my search.
so to help you on your search...where does it say that an astrally projecting entity reacts faster than thought?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| for the love of mike. my point is that since physics says the ward won't hurt you if you attack it with a spear, then physics must not apply--since the ward actually can hurt you when you attack it with a spear. look, you misunderstood what i was saying, okay? DuckEgg was suggesting that physics, as we know them on the physical plane, apply in astral space. i was disagreeing with him. i'm saying now what i've been saying this whole thread, and said in the SR4 thread: physics don't apply on the astral. |
They *DO* apply though.
Physical World:
You punch a wall with your fist. Your fist shatters. You hurt... a lot.
Astral Space:
You punch a ward. Your fist hurts.
You attack a ward with your weapon focus. You get hurt. <--- Still makes sense.
How? That weapon focus is part of *YOUR* astral form. It's literally an extension of you projecting your will.
This differs in the physical where it's a separate object as far as the wall is concerned. Look at the mechanics behind each combat. Look at the attributes involved. That should explain it clear enough.
You're incorrect. In astral space, you punch a ward, the ward punches you. The ward doesn't hurt you passively the way the wall does. The ward specifically attacks you.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| Even if your not being literal, are you actually saying that a bullet fired on the physical plane could actually 'hit' a being that can react faster than thought, is not limited by physical senses and can move many times the speed of sound? I think he could dodge it very VERY easily. |
i'm not getting hung up on the word 'automatic', i'm getting hung up on the rules. the rules do not allow astral magicians to dodge bullets automatically, or even very easily--not significantly easier than they could dodge bullets on the physical plane. and if they can't dodge bullets, i have a hard time seeing them dodging astral forms travelling much faster than any bullet ever designed.
darthmod, punch an iron wall. then punch a steel wall. does punching the steel wall hurt more than punching the iron wall? no, despite the fact that steel is stronger than iron. compare this to attacking a ward: if you fail in your attack against a force 1 ward, it's not going to hurt very much. if you fail in your attack against a force 12 ward, it might kill you. furthermore, even if you manage to punch your way through an iron wall, your fist is still likely to be broken. if you punch your way through a force 12 ward, you come through completely unscathed.
the only point of comparison between astral barriers and physical walls is that if you punch them, you might get hurt. if you punch a fire, you might also get hurt. but it's not for the same reason as if you punched a wall, is it? attacking astral barriers works under different basic laws than punching physical walls. the reason punching an astral barrier can hurt you is not the same as the reason why punching a physical wall can hurt you. how do i know? because the rules for each are completely different.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| In astral space, you punch a ward, the ward punches you. |
also true in soviet russia!
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| where does it say that an astrally projecting entity reacts faster than thought? |
Your physical Reaction is the average of your physical speed, quickness, and your mental speed, intelligence. Astral reaction is your intelligence PLUS 20. That's not an insignificant number, what's your explanation for it?
Look, maybe I missed it, but I don't remember ever seeing rules for astral traffic, which means it's a none issue. This means that dodging stuff which isn't trying to hit you must be very easy, because if as people believe, collisions occur but simply don't hurt you, you could still get knocked offcourse, which in a high traffic area WOULD be an issue.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i'm getting hung up on the rules. the rules do not allow astral magicians to dodge bullets automatically, or even very easily--not significantly easier than they could dodge bullets on the physical plane. and if they can't dodge bullets, i have a hard time seeing them dodging astral forms travelling much faster than any bullet ever designed. |
...Again, clearly I've missed something. Where are these rules for astral forms dodging bullets and their comparison to dodging bullets on the physical plane? I'd swear they don't exsist, because it's a non-issue, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, just give me a page number. I'd also like the page number for the rules on avoiding astral traffic while your at it.
| QUOTE |
| punch an iron wall. then punch a steel wall. does punching the steel wall hurt more than punching the iron wall? no |
I've been trying to ignore it because this isn't actually relevant to my analogy, but it's too ridiculous. The only reson the 2 things hurt the same is because once you reach a certain level of pain, you stop applying force. In a collision, the less force one object can absorb due to factors like strength and hardness, the more the other object will have to absorb. Forget physics, try applying some common sense.
The only point of the wall analogy was that in both cases an INANIMATE object reacted to an 'attack' when brought into conflict without the need for a concious decision to do so. NOTHING ELSE. The exact nature of said conflict is NOT the point, so stop trying to use that to prove it wrong, it does not APPLY. The only point is that a conflict occurs without a concious decision to do so, for no other reason than the two things move into conflict with each other.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| You're incorrect. In astral space, you punch a ward, the ward punches you. The ward doesn't hurt you passively the way the wall does. The ward specifically attacks you. |
YES, this is because it does not require a concious effort to engage in astral combat, this is the point I'm trying to make. It 'attacks' you for no other reason than it has force and you are coming into conflict with it. The reverse should also be true. If an object with force comes into conflict with something else with force, then an astral combat occurs, without any concious decision to do so. This idea is supported by the pressing though barriers rules. Hence, even though momentum and other physical factors are NOT an issue, when an object with force, like a dual natured bullet, is brought into conflict with something else an astral conflict will occur.
Now this is the point where people go 'what about astral traffic then, if a collision is all thats needed for combat to occur, why aren't their rules for it happening accidentally?'. Because it's easy to dodge stuff etc, thus the explanation comes full circle and every step is logical deduced from each other point and the rules. The conclusion being that a DN Bullet will indeed be forced into astral combat with an astral form when they collide, BUT that a purely astral form can simply dodge, still leaving mundanes with a potential anti-materialised spirit weapon.
At no point does the 'pushed aside' 'squeezed out of the way' or 'knocked back' theory make sense to me, fit into my understanding of the rules as shown above, or even have any necessary reason to exsist. But like I said I can admit when I'm wrong, show me the page number, quote the passage, and I'll gladly admit that all the above is meaningless. Either way, I don't think I can explain what I'm saying anymore clearly than that.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| Again, clearly I've missed something. Where are these rules for astral forms dodging bullets and their comparison to dodging bullets on the physical plane? I'd swear they don't exsist, because it's a non-issue, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, just give me a page number. I'd also like the page number for the rules on avoiding astral traffic while your at it. |
well, there's the fact that astral characters don't get any special bonus to dodge physical attacks from dual-natured beings. if you can't dodge a fist, then you can't dodge a bullet, and you certainly can't dodge an astral form travelling at top speed. the rules say that the nature of the astral plane makes ranged attacks moot--but if they're moot because astral mages can dodge bullets, then why can't they dodge fists and swords even more easily? it seems to me that ranged attacks are moot because ranged attacks are inherently physical; if you could make a ranged attack dual, it wouldn't be moot anymore. but that's conjecture.
as for running into another astral form, it's not going to knock you way off course if--as i've postulated--there's no inertia. two astral forms that run into one another are only going to be pushed just far enough out of each others' way that they can both continue in the direction they were heading to begin with. getting thrown way off-course would require that the energy of impact remain with the impactees, which basically equals inertia. no inertia, no energy retention.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| I've been trying to ignore it because this isn't actually relevant to my analogy, but it's too ridiculous. |
dude, your analogy is ridiculous! punching a ward and punching a wall match up on exactly one point, and it's not even a good match: in either case, you might get hurt. that's it. how much you'll get hurt, how the relative toughness of the barrier affects the outcome, the use of tools, the effects of success, the effects of failure--everything else about these situations is completely different in each case. a much, much better analogy would be punching a fire, as i said above. when you punch a fire, how hard you punch has no effect on how much you get hurt--all that matters is how hot the fire is. the analogy has obvious shortcomings, of course; you can't really punch a fire hard enough to put it out, and--as in punching a wall--using a tool to attack the fire will generally keep you from getting hurt; likewise, even if you punch the fire really hard, you'll get hurt anyway. still, as a basic model for "why does it hurt when i attack a ward", it's better than punching a wall.
| QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega) |
| The only point is that a conflict occurs without a concious decision to do so, for no other reason than the two things move into conflict with each other. |
which is only relevant when the astral forms are forced into conflict. the rules more strongly support the no-inertia model than the easy-dodge model. in the no-inertia model, shooting someone does not force a conflict because the target just gets pushed out of the way.
and before you ask 'why don't melee attacks from dual creatures just push astral targets out of the way', the reason is that a melee attack carries the attacker's intent. intent is important, as demonstrated in the spirit combat rules. a bullet, even a dual-natured bullet, carries no intent because there's no connection to the shooter.
the intent is with the posessing spirit, with your description inanimate dual natured ammo would push the target away but the spirit being that his job it to attack means he would initiate the combat.
one more thing...
...but...but...but fire is alive. putting it out would be murder!
one more thing...
...but...but...but fire is alive. putting it out would be murder!
if you had a spirit-possessed bullet, and you convinced it to attack whoever you shot, you're correct--the spirit would be able to engage astral targets. there's only one way i'm aware of to have a spirit-bullet, though, and that's to stick your ally spirit into one (or have it assume the form of a bullet, i guess). the obeyifa thing i mentioned won't work--the obeyifa has to be holding the totem for the spirit to do stuff. a FAB-filled bullet wouldn't work against astral forms, only dual creatures.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the obeyifa thing i mentioned won't work--the obeyifa has to be holding the totem for the spirit to do stuff. |
okay so....arrow with a trailing line then?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the rules more strongly support the no-inertia model than the easy-dodge model. |
You saying this does not make it so. As an aside I know theres no inertia, but it's irrellevant to my argument. Nothing in the rules more strongly supports your model, only your interpretation of them. This is why I ask for book references, like this one:
| QUOTE (SR3 @ pg 176, Astral Evasion) |
| it is a simple matter for one astral form to evade another. |
Sounds like it's easy to dodge stuff in astral to me.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| there's the fact that astral characters don't get any special bonus to dodge physical attacks from dual-natured beings... |
You don't need bonuses when it's so easy you don't even need to make a test for it. Again, a lack of rules indicates it's a non issue in this case.
| QUOTE (SR3 @ pg 176, Astral Evasion) |
| An astrally projecting character can break off combat with a dual being by moving out of its reach |
No test needed, in simply does. A DN creature, limited by it's physical form cannot engage an astral entity in astral combat unless said astral entity allows it to. The only time a DN being can get a hit in, so to speak, is in response to being attacked. The flavour reason could be that when someone attacks you there's an element of predictability to the movements, or that they have to get in close enough that hitting becomes simple. That aside it's a balance issue. The game doesn't let you sling astral spells for free, with physical drain rather than regular, in astral, and sniping in astal combat would be worse. It's no different to someone being able to hit a move-by-wire-4 cyber ninja with maxed quickness who gets 2 actions before everyone else, IF he tries to engage you in melee combat and your better/luckier in the opposed test. That pretty much nerfs the rest of your argument re dodging bullets and other astral forms, and did I happen to mention the book says this:
| QUOTE (SR3 @ pg 176, Astral Evasion) |
| it is a simple matter for one astral form to evade another. |
?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| as for running into another astral form, it's not going to knock you way off course |
For starters, I never said WAY offcourse. Secondly, if you adopt a vector model (with NO inertia), when 2 beings collide the would travel in the sum of there intended direction for however far it took them to realise, which considering the great speeds, could be a significant distance in minimal time. Even if we assume that they simply STOP, there will still be consequences. The obvious is that in a high traffic area you will be stopping alot, the other is, people don't like being stopped or bumped into. EVEN if you didn't stop and applied some cartoony, stretchy interaction, aside from being silly, it would still brobably annoy people. Take for example a mage with the vindictive flaw, I'm pretty sure getting bumped into in astral space is exactly the kind of thing that would set him off. But again, there's no rules for astral traffic, it's not even mentioned anywhere I've read, and is logically NOT AN ISSUE. The complete absence to reference to it doesn't just mean it's not a big deal to collide with someone, it means it doesn't happen. And again:
| QUOTE (SR3 @ pg 176, Astral Evasion) |
| it is a simple matter for one astral form to evade another. |
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| dude, your analogy is ridiculous! punching a ward and punching a wall match up on exactly one point |
It's only meant to match up on ONE POINT, that's precisely WHY it's pointless to argue any of the other points. It's like I've said "That blue ball and that blue brick are the same colour." and you're replying "What? They're completely different, that ball is round, and the brick is square, and the ball bounces on the grass, but the brick won't, and the grass is green!" It's all completely irrellevant. Ofcourse your arguments being irrelevant wasn't even the most ridiculous part, it was that they were WRONG anyway.
ALL I was trying to show is that in both situations, inanimate objects act againts things without a conscious decision to do so, INTENT is NOT a prerequesite for astral combat.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| intent is important, |
Finally, atleast your arguing the point now. Only problem is intent is not important, if it was, why does an inanimate, non-intelligent object like an astral barrier ATTACK you? Or why would a FAB bullet work on a DN being? Becuase intent is NOT important.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the rules more strongly support the no-inertia model than the easy-dodge model. |
Like I said, you saying this does not make it so.
In your model, astral combat requires intent, except for when it doesn't. In mine, intent is never needed. Your own model contradicts itself, how can you not see the flaw in this? In your model astral collisions occur, but simply don't do anything. As demonstrated, this doesn't make sense and there's nothing in the rules to back it up. In mine astral collisions tend to not happen, not accidentally anyway, and IS backed up by the book. Look, I can see how your model can explain some of the things that happen in the game, but bottom line, it doesn't explain everything and doesn't "jive" with ALL the material in the BBB, or even itself. My model does, it matches the material in the book and is congruent top to bottom. How you can't see this, or more accurately WHY you won't, I don't understand.
On magic ammo, a possessed bullet (or arrow) seems a wasted effort, even if it works. If you want something a mage can make and give to his mundane friends, use anchoring foci. A reusable foci arrow with a detection spell and a manaball or something linked to it is going to be far more useful, and possibly effective, than an arrow, with a line to the oyebifa, and a spirit in it.
Even so, DN gear is vulnerable to astral attack. The Ultimate solution is a non-astrally active substance, that simply removes the 'normality' from weapons. Ofcourse if such a substance exsisted in canon it surely would have been discovered by now (in game) and would have been mentioned, but outside of that, alchemical stuff might be the place to start negotiations with a GM. If orichalcum doesn't do it, nothing will.
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