except that you're basing your ideas about astral bullets on your analogy about astral barriers.

intent's not quite the right concept; after all, a dual creature on an elevator that carries him through a ward doesn't really intend to go through the ward.

something differentiates being hit by a dual creature's melee attack from being accidentally run into by another astral form--we both agree on that; i think the difference is that such collisions do no damage, you think they can be automatically avoided. if you reject the easy-dodge model, you're left with the no-harm-no-foul model.

Well, yes somewhat, but no more so than you.

In both our models, things generally have identical effects, and both can seem equally valid (or invalid). It's just that we each have sticking points which convince us that our model is 'better'.

My foremost sticking point is the relevance of intent to astral combat. I think it needs to have the same significance all the time, regardless of what that is, and since barriers etc don't have it, but perform astral combat, then intent is not necessary. Therfore, it's never necessary. My model satisfies this point for me, yours doesn't. You even say intent is a concept that doesn't work in your model, but aren't offering another explanation why astral forms should simply deflect off each other, but astral barriers attack you.

By extension the lack of mention of astral traffic or rules for it, is an issue for me. Intent or no intent, I think that if the collisions happen there should be rules for them or atleast a mention of them. There are no rules so in my mind they don't happen, and the idea that avoiding other astral forms is somewhat supported by the book, if not implicitly. Again, your model doesn't satisfy this point for me, because as nice an idea as 'no harm, no foul' is, there's always a jerk who will take issue with it. Going back to the vindictive flaw, they react to slights real or 'imagined', and if people are knocking into each other, sooner or later, someone will care.

You on the otherhand take issue with the 'easy dodge' thing because astral forms don't get a bonus to dodging whilst in combat with a DN creature (and by extension shouldn't be able to dodge other, much faster stuff). Like I said, flavour aside (its much easier to hit someone when they're trying to hit you), I'm willing to accept this is purely a mechanics/game balance issue. If you can react and move really fast then you should be able to dodge things easier, but this is never reflected in the combat rules, which is why it isn't reflected in the astral combat rules. Going back to the example of the move-by-wire-4 ninja. He has quickness to burn, get's to act twice before anyone else, but none of that means anything once he enters melee. I am willing to accept that as an explanation for that aspect of the rules, and for me my model still works, you may not accept it.

Bottomline, we may not agree on how things work, but atleast NOW I think we understand where each other is coming from, something I don't think was happening earlier on.

We also seem to agree on the effects, so a question, what would happen if a character took a piece of Force 10 Biofibre, made a club with it, and tried wailing on a ward with it?