 Vindicator recoil, If Jesse Ventura could do it... |
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 Jun 4 2007, 05:00 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 9-November 06 From: Doing surgery with shotguns Member No.: 9,810  |
A bit of a rules scuffle has taken place between the members of my gaming group, and I was hoping Dumpshockers would be willing to act as arbiters.
Our troll sam simply had to have a Vindicator, and managed to come by one in a reasonable way. Our 50% time GM is a die hard 2nd ed player, despite the fact that we all decided we were playing 3rd ed. This is where the problem comes in - the difference between 2nd ed and 3rd ed rules for Strength based recoil modifiers. The troll in question has a ~13 strength, and a max gyro for 7 points of recoil comp. According to our 2nd ed GM, he should be able to fill out the rest of his recoil with strength modifiers. However, page 103 of CC clearly says that he can't get anywhere close to 7 more points of recoil compensation from strength( I believe he would have a -2 recoil modifier from strength in straight 3rd ed rules). Various different rules lawyers have argued about whether the vindicator would become a useless weapon in this instance. Suggestions on what should happen include: a.> More recoil compensation for having high body. With a strength of ~13 and a body of ~11, the guy is basically a small truck. b.> Allow separate rolls for burst fire on the 15 shots. Basically, No recoil the first three bursts, +1 for the next burst, then full recoil thereafter. People seem to like this argument because it implies that it would be easier to shoot a giant machine gun in the beginning, then as the recoil stacks up it gets harder. c.> Yeah, a gun that big needs to be mounted on a vehicle or guard tower or something. The notion of carrying one is laughable. I'm sure there are many other options. So here are my questions: Can a single metahuman with good equipment fire a vindicator and expect to hit anything? What are the by-the-book rules on it and where can I find them? Do you agree with them? Why? |
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Jun 4 2007, 05:29 PM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
He should, IIRC, get 2 points of extra recoil comp from Strength. This means that he has 9 total. That means he can fire any partition of 9 bullets without recoil penalties other than target-switching, and can then use the other rounds for long shots. Beyond that, his main options involve cyberarms with gyro-stabilization.
He can also deliver some kickass suppression. ~J |
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Jun 4 2007, 06:09 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
He already has a gyro-mount, you can't stack that with the cyberarm gyromount. It's actually explicitly stated. |
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Jun 4 2007, 06:20 PM
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Whoops, that's what I get for posting from work.
This demonstrates the importance of putting copies of my rulebook PDFs on the work computer. ~J |
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Jun 4 2007, 06:37 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,917 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
You could houserule that he can use gas vents so long as he buys one for each barrel.
There are also other 3rd ed weapon customazations that can hypothetically reduce recoil like weights and the like. Unsure if there are any rules saying they don't work on miniguns. This would all be in CC. The smartlink also sorta provides 2 points of recoil compensation. At the least using the rules what he could do is shoot whatever he can cleanly and then "swtich targets" thus giving one clean burst (have to double check if that's right in 3rd, too many editions!) Personally I'd probably let it happen some way or other. After all by the rules he could just carry the standard assault cannon/missile launcher/C10 launcher instead. |
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Jun 4 2007, 06:43 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It's a Heavy Weapon, meaning uncompensated recoil is doubled. As a result, a smartlink only cancels one point of uncompensated recoil.
Edit: also, it isn't the same as an assault cannon: a full shot from an assault cannon has a TN of 4 to dodge, while a full shot from a Vindicator has a TN of 9 to dodge. ~J |
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Jun 4 2007, 08:42 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 9-November 06 From: Doing surgery with shotguns Member No.: 9,810 |
Does he get the first shot recoil free? I mean, you shouldn't have any recoil if you haven't shot a bullet yet, right? So does that mean 10 shots? Sorry, I'm also at work.
I'm pretty sure the Vindicator specifically cannot take any recoil modifications. At least, thats what the troll has been swearing about for a few weeks now. It has become one of those issues where he says "OK, I get out my vindicator..." and then everyone starts rambling about 'physics' and nothing gets done for 45 minutes. |
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Jun 4 2007, 08:48 PM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The rules apply recoil to every round in every firing mode except SS and SA.
I'll have to check, but I think it just bans gas vents, not any recoil comp. Of course, gas vents are the big one... ~J |
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Jun 4 2007, 09:47 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Yeah, lets put an unberbarrel weight... no that won't work... or how about a foregrip! nope... not that either. That pretty much rules out everything but the customized grip, and really I think that was intended for sidearms. Tell him next time to spend the dough on the Ares HVAR.
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Jun 4 2007, 11:26 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Why not try and figure out how accurate they are in real life and work backwards from there? I know that the recoil and rate of fire rules aren't all that accurate but you should be able to eye ball what would make sense when you compare it will some other guns.
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Jun 4 2007, 11:53 PM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You may "really think" it, but it isn't in the rules.
~J |
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Jun 5 2007, 10:38 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
This is every pertinent rule I found in the CC. With 2 RC for STR + 3 for above accessories & 7 for the max gyro you get 12 RC. Use tracer ammo and get -4 to TN at medium and higher ranges with no RC mods. Call it ol' painless. |
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Jun 5 2007, 11:18 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
Hmmm...well, in the real world it's all but impossible to use a chaingun except on a tripod. The only reason The Body got away with it was he was wearing a kevlar vest so that the flash packets and shells from the blanks wouldn't kill him and he had multiple takes to do everything. These beasts weigh a ton, they're belt fed with a HUGE rate of fire (real chainguns fire at round about 10,000 rounds per minute I believe). They basically shower the area they're in with bullets and tear anything not behind hardened armor to tatters. You know why chainguns have rotating barrels? It's because with the speed and amount of rounds fired from these things, if it did go through just one barrel the thing would MELT from the friction. Oh, and they jam easily unless someone is monitoring the belt of ammo going in. They're normally operated on mounts on vehicles or on tripods and are generally operated by three people with two being a functional minimum -- one person to aim and fire, one person to feed the ammo. As much as Predator rocked, it's very infeasible that would even be possible. Ventura said as much in his autobiography. Then again, it does look amazingly cool. I'm just saying that approaching this from a "real world" perspective doesn't work too well. The Abstruse One |
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Jun 5 2007, 12:44 PM
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#14
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Tracer rounds.
And what about those cyberleg hook things, the one where spikes come out of your feet and ground you? Doesn't that reduce recoil? Besides, firing a minigun, even for a Troll, is more show than effect. You're not really going to hit anything. But you will scare the shit out of the opposition. |
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Jun 5 2007, 12:54 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492 |
It sounds to me like the best option here would be to make up some new rules.
How about emulating the wall of lead with modified shotgun rules? The amount of recoil compensation you can squeeze out would determine your best 'choke' settings. That would allow miniguns and the like to actually be used to kill things, without allowing someone to precisely put 3 bullets into that guy, 6 bullets into the next, and 10 bullets into the jeep, just because you had them left over, and without running into the situation where recoil running wild means that you can be shooting someone 5 feet in front of you and you can't actually hit them with your 100 rounds shot in the combat phase. |
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Jun 5 2007, 01:38 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
that's fine until someone puts in a smart link. then you are putting 3 bullets into that guy 6 into that one, etc... |
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Jun 5 2007, 01:47 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
I mentioned the tracers but the foot spikes are a good point. Add 2 for a total of 14 RC means the minigun is almost fully compensated. 17D (or 7D with 5 extra dice using searching fire) with -4 to TN. Why isn't the troll going to hit anything? Is this a trog thing? ;) |
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Jun 5 2007, 04:39 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, chainguns are NOT Gatling/Miniguns. In fact, they are an altogether different beast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gun The weapon system you are talking about from the "Predator" movie was a "Minigun". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun |
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Jun 5 2007, 05:06 PM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
wait, he's only got 7 Str? he oughtta be taking recoil mods! he's not even over the human maximum.
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Jun 5 2007, 05:11 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,451 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 4,488 |
Semantics...everything I say still stands even if I used the wrong name :P
That's where my error came in...way too much DOOM and DOOM ][ as a teenager. The Abstruse One |
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