A bit of a rules scuffle has taken place between the members of my gaming group, and I was hoping Dumpshockers would be willing to act as arbiters.
Our troll sam simply had to have a Vindicator, and managed to come by one in a reasonable way. Our 50% time GM is a die hard 2nd ed player, despite the fact that we all decided we were playing 3rd ed. This is where the problem comes in - the difference between 2nd ed and 3rd ed rules for Strength based recoil modifiers.
The troll in question has a ~13 strength, and a max gyro for 7 points of recoil comp. According to our 2nd ed GM, he should be able to fill out the rest of his recoil with strength modifiers. However, page 103 of CC clearly says that he can't get anywhere close to 7 more points of recoil compensation from strength( I believe he would have a -2 recoil modifier from strength in straight 3rd ed rules).
Various different rules lawyers have argued about whether the vindicator would become a useless weapon in this instance. Suggestions on what should happen include:
a.> More recoil compensation for having high body. With a strength of ~13 and a body of ~11, the guy is basically a small truck.
b.> Allow separate rolls for burst fire on the 15 shots. Basically, No recoil the first three bursts, +1 for the next burst, then full recoil thereafter. People seem to like this argument because it implies that it would be easier to shoot a giant machine gun in the beginning, then as the recoil stacks up it gets harder.
c.> Yeah, a gun that big needs to be mounted on a vehicle or guard tower or something. The notion of carrying one is laughable.
I'm sure there are many other options.
So here are my questions: Can a single metahuman with good equipment fire a vindicator and expect to hit anything? What are the by-the-book rules on it and where can I find them? Do you agree with them? Why?
Full Version: Vindicator recoil
He should, IIRC, get 2 points of extra recoil comp from Strength. This means that he has 9 total. That means he can fire any partition of 9 bullets without recoil penalties other than target-switching, and can then use the other rounds for long shots. Beyond that, his main options involve cyberarms with gyro-stabilization.
He can also deliver some kickass suppression.
~J
He can also deliver some kickass suppression.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| He should, IIRC, get 2 points of extra recoil comp from Strength. This means that he has 9 total. That means he can fire any partition of 9 bullets without recoil penalties other than target-switching, and can then use the other rounds for long shots. Beyond that, his main options involve cyberarms with gyro-stabilization. He can also deliver some kickass suppression. ~J |
He already has a gyro-mount, you can't stack that with the cyberarm gyromount. It's actually explicitly stated.
Whoops, that's what I get for posting from work.
This demonstrates the importance of putting copies of my rulebook PDFs on the work computer.
~J
This demonstrates the importance of putting copies of my rulebook PDFs on the work computer.
~J
You could houserule that he can use gas vents so long as he buys one for each barrel.
There are also other 3rd ed weapon customazations that can hypothetically reduce recoil like weights and the like. Unsure if there are any rules saying they don't work on miniguns. This would all be in CC.
The smartlink also sorta provides 2 points of recoil compensation.
At the least using the rules what he could do is shoot whatever he can cleanly and then "swtich targets" thus giving one clean burst (have to double check if that's right in 3rd, too many editions!)
Personally I'd probably let it happen some way or other. After all by the rules he could just carry the standard assault cannon/missile launcher/C10 launcher instead.
There are also other 3rd ed weapon customazations that can hypothetically reduce recoil like weights and the like. Unsure if there are any rules saying they don't work on miniguns. This would all be in CC.
The smartlink also sorta provides 2 points of recoil compensation.
At the least using the rules what he could do is shoot whatever he can cleanly and then "swtich targets" thus giving one clean burst (have to double check if that's right in 3rd, too many editions!)
Personally I'd probably let it happen some way or other. After all by the rules he could just carry the standard assault cannon/missile launcher/C10 launcher instead.
It's a Heavy Weapon, meaning uncompensated recoil is doubled. As a result, a smartlink only cancels one point of uncompensated recoil.
Edit: also, it isn't the same as an assault cannon: a full shot from an assault cannon has a TN of 4 to dodge, while a full shot from a Vindicator has a TN of 9 to dodge.
~J
Edit: also, it isn't the same as an assault cannon: a full shot from an assault cannon has a TN of 4 to dodge, while a full shot from a Vindicator has a TN of 9 to dodge.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| He should, IIRC, get 2 points of extra recoil comp from Strength. This means that he has 9 total. |
Does he get the first shot recoil free? I mean, you shouldn't have any recoil if you haven't shot a bullet yet, right? So does that mean 10 shots?
Sorry, I'm also at work.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
There are also other 3rd ed weapon customazations that can hypothetically reduce recoil like weights and the like. Unsure if there are any rules saying they don't work on miniguns. This would all be in CC. |
I'm pretty sure the Vindicator specifically cannot take any recoil modifications. At least, thats what the troll has been swearing about for a few weeks now. It has become one of those issues where he says "OK, I get out my vindicator..." and then everyone starts rambling about 'physics' and nothing gets done for 45 minutes.
The rules apply recoil to every round in every firing mode except SS and SA.
I'll have to check, but I think it just bans gas vents, not any recoil comp. Of course, gas vents are the big one...
~J
I'll have to check, but I think it just bans gas vents, not any recoil comp. Of course, gas vents are the big one...
~J
Yeah, lets put an unberbarrel weight... no that won't work... or how about a foregrip! nope... not that either. That pretty much rules out everything but the customized grip, and really I think that was intended for sidearms. Tell him next time to spend the dough on the Ares HVAR.
Why not try and figure out how accurate they are in real life and work backwards from there? I know that the recoil and rate of fire rules aren't all that accurate but you should be able to eye ball what would make sense when you compare it will some other guns.
You may "really think" it, but it isn't in the rules.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (jrpigman) |
| So here are my questions: Can a single metahuman with good equipment fire a vindicator and expect to hit anything? What are the by-the-book rules on it and where can I find them? Do you agree with them? Why? |
| QUOTE |
| Heavy weapons can accommodate one barrel, one under-barrel and one top-mounted accessory unless otherwise noted. The Vindicator cannot mount any accessories on its barrels. Any character with a Body of 8 or higher and Strength of 8 or higher can carry and use a heavy weapon without benefit of a stabilizer. Foregrip or Underbarrel Weight - Mount: Under Personalized Grip - Mount: None Shock/Hip Pads: Shock-absorbing pads may be mounted on rifles of all types, shotguns, machine guns and assault cannons. |
This is every pertinent rule I found in the CC. With 2 RC for STR + 3 for above accessories & 7 for the max gyro you get 12 RC. Use tracer ammo and get -4 to TN at medium and higher ranges with no RC mods. Call it ol' painless.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| Why not try and figure out how accurate they are in real life and work backwards from there? I know that the recoil and rate of fire rules aren't all that accurate but you should be able to eye ball what would make sense when you compare it will some other guns. |
Hmmm...well, in the real world it's all but impossible to use a chaingun except on a tripod. The only reason The Body got away with it was he was wearing a kevlar vest so that the flash packets and shells from the blanks wouldn't kill him and he had multiple takes to do everything. These beasts weigh a ton, they're belt fed with a HUGE rate of fire (real chainguns fire at round about 10,000 rounds per minute I believe). They basically shower the area they're in with bullets and tear anything not behind hardened armor to tatters. You know why chainguns have rotating barrels? It's because with the speed and amount of rounds fired from these things, if it did go through just one barrel the thing would MELT from the friction. Oh, and they jam easily unless someone is monitoring the belt of ammo going in. They're normally operated on mounts on vehicles or on tripods and are generally operated by three people with two being a functional minimum -- one person to aim and fire, one person to feed the ammo.
As much as Predator rocked, it's very infeasible that would even be possible. Ventura said as much in his autobiography. Then again, it does look amazingly cool. I'm just saying that approaching this from a "real world" perspective doesn't work too well.
The Abstruse One
Tracer rounds.
And what about those cyberleg hook things, the one where spikes come out of your feet and ground you? Doesn't that reduce recoil?
Besides, firing a minigun, even for a Troll, is more show than effect. You're not really going to hit anything. But you will scare the shit out of the opposition.
And what about those cyberleg hook things, the one where spikes come out of your feet and ground you? Doesn't that reduce recoil?
Besides, firing a minigun, even for a Troll, is more show than effect. You're not really going to hit anything. But you will scare the shit out of the opposition.
It sounds to me like the best option here would be to make up some new rules.
How about emulating the wall of lead with modified shotgun rules? The amount of recoil compensation you can squeeze out would determine your best 'choke' settings.
That would allow miniguns and the like to actually be used to kill things, without allowing someone to precisely put 3 bullets into that guy, 6 bullets into the next, and 10 bullets into the jeep, just because you had them left over, and without running into the situation where recoil running wild means that you can be shooting someone 5 feet in front of you and you can't actually hit them with your 100 rounds shot in the combat phase.
How about emulating the wall of lead with modified shotgun rules? The amount of recoil compensation you can squeeze out would determine your best 'choke' settings.
That would allow miniguns and the like to actually be used to kill things, without allowing someone to precisely put 3 bullets into that guy, 6 bullets into the next, and 10 bullets into the jeep, just because you had them left over, and without running into the situation where recoil running wild means that you can be shooting someone 5 feet in front of you and you can't actually hit them with your 100 rounds shot in the combat phase.
| QUOTE (Slump) |
| It sounds to me like the best option here would be to make up some new rules. How about emulating the wall of lead with modified shotgun rules? The amount of recoil compensation you can squeeze out would determine your best 'choke' settings. That would allow miniguns and the like to actually be used to kill things, without allowing someone to precisely put 3 bullets into that guy, 6 bullets into the next, and 10 bullets into the jeep, just because you had them left over, and without running into the situation where recoil running wild means that you can be shooting someone 5 feet in front of you and you can't actually hit them with your 100 rounds shot in the combat phase. |
that's fine until someone puts in a smart link.
then you are putting 3 bullets into that guy 6 into that one, etc...
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Tracer rounds. And what about those cyberleg hook things, the one where spikes come out of your feet and ground you? Doesn't that reduce recoil? Besides, firing a minigun, even for a Troll, is more show than effect. You're not really going to hit anything. But you will scare the shit out of the opposition. |
I mentioned the tracers but the foot spikes are a good point. Add 2 for a total of 14 RC means the minigun is almost fully compensated. 17D (or 7D with 5 extra dice using searching fire) with -4 to TN.
Why isn't the troll going to hit anything? Is this a trog thing?
| QUOTE (Abstruse) |
| Hmmm...well, in the real world it's all but impossible to use a chaingun except on a tripod. The only reason The Body got away with it was he was wearing a kevlar vest so that the flash packets and shells from the blanks wouldn't kill him and he had multiple takes to do everything. These beasts weigh a ton, they're belt fed with a HUGE rate of fire (real chainguns fire at round about 10,000 rounds per minute I believe). They basically shower the area they're in with bullets and tear anything not behind hardened armor to tatters. You know why chainguns have rotating barrels? It's because with the speed and amount of rounds fired from these things, if it did go through just one barrel the thing would MELT from the friction. Oh, and they jam easily unless someone is monitoring the belt of ammo going in. They're normally operated on mounts on vehicles or on tripods and are generally operated by three people with two being a functional minimum -- one person to aim and fire, one person to feed the ammo. As much as Predator rocked, it's very infeasible that would even be possible. Ventura said as much in his autobiography. Then again, it does look amazingly cool. I'm just saying that approaching this from a "real world" perspective doesn't work too well. The Abstruse One |
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, chainguns are NOT Gatling/Miniguns. In fact, they are an altogether different beast:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_gun
The weapon system you are talking about from the "Predator" movie was a "Minigun".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun
wait, he's only got 7 Str? he oughtta be taking recoil mods! he's not even over the human maximum.
Semantics...everything I say still stands even if I used the wrong name 
| QUOTE |
| It is a common misnomer to refer to Gatling guns (rotary cannons) as chain guns; even in some video games, such as Wolfenstein 3D and Doom, the player carries a minigun referred to as a chain gun. In fact, most Gatling-type guns—weapons such as the M61 Vulcan, the M197, the GShG-7.62, the M134, and the XM214—are externally-powered but are not chain guns. They instead function by directing the power source (usually electricity) to a unit known as a rotor, which contains each of the multiple barrel-and-breech assemblies that make up the distinctive shape of a rotary gun and is free to rotate within a fixed outer sleeve. A cam projecting from each breech unit runs in a shaped, recessed track within the sleeve. To fire, power is applied to rotate the rotor which in turn causes each breech to cycle as its cam is forced to follow the recessed track. Each barrel therefore fires independently. |
That's where my error came in...way too much DOOM and DOOM ][ as a teenager.
The Abstruse One
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