 Dual Nature and communications., Ghouls on the phone? |
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 Jun 5 2007, 04:13 AM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669  |
As I understand it, a creature using Astral Perception is unable to utilized AR or to read electronically reproduced images (such as on a computer screen). I've also read that Astral Perception is NOT just visual but all senses. So, that would seem to indicate that you can't hear the sounds coming from your earbud speakers either.
So, since Dual Natured creatures can't stop astrally perceiving, and you can not use both astral and physical perception at the same time (but you do see the astral images of the physical stuff), I have to ask: Can a Dual Natured creature use electronic communications? Can they perceive what comes out of the speakers? |
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Jun 5 2007, 04:36 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Dual nature could use AR fine.
The catch is: 'normal' creature can not view both worlds at the same time. So if Astral Percieving can not view the mundance AR. A dual Nature entity is seeing both at all time. So while the AR wouldnt show up on the 'astral' they could still see the AR since it is visible to the 'meat' eyes. |
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Jun 5 2007, 06:01 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Where does it say that you cannot use AR? I couldn't find the reference in the Astral Perception section. All it says is that everything has a reflection in the astral and non-living non-magic items are reflected as grey and lifeless. I figured that you could still use AR when astrally perceiving but you would have the -2 dice as per normal. Dual natured creatures are used to seeing things astrally so they don't have the -2.
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Jun 5 2007, 06:28 AM
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#4
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Personally, I feel that the one-at-a-time sentence was a mistake and it is confusing. Astral Perception is a psychic sense and it did not interfere with any other senses in any previous editions. Previously it was a sixth sense that complimented the other five, rather than replaced them.
The RAW says that ghouls can't see, hear, smell, or taste anything in the physical world. 18 years of previous and current flavor text say that they are blind because of eye damage but all of their other senses are fine and they can regain physical sight through surgery. When RAW and flavor contradict each other, one of them must be wrong. In this case, the RAW also states that Ghouls have Enhanced Hearing and Smell, which should be useless due to their dual nature if you follow the one-at-a-time rule. This makes no sense. It is, in fact, absurd. Why would Ghouls have enhanced senses that they can never use? It constitutes a proof by contradiction which clearly indicates that the RAW is incorrect. Our only question is which part of the RAW is incorrect. In this case, Ghouls using physical senses is supported by current and past flavor test as well as past RAW. On the other hand, the one-at-a-time rule is contradicted by flavor text and past RAW. The only logical conclusion is that the one-at-a-time rule is incorrect and an astrally perceiving character does have use of all of his physical senses. |
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Jun 5 2007, 06:59 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Page 182 main book:
Now as to dual-natured creatures:
Now to me that has always meant that dual natured creatures can perceive and interact with the astral as described in the referenced section; However, they also can percieve and interact with the Mundance world. A 'mage' will have to chose one or the other (taking a simple action to switch between them). A dual nature creature though can always sees in both. (and thus has no penalties) (besides always being vulnerable to astral attacks). So a dragon hacker :-) could see both AR and that pesky mage sneaking up astrally. A human mage however: If not astral percieving, couldn't see the mage sneaky up astrally (as it has no physical represenation). If astraly percieving, they could see the mage sneaky up, but would not (IMO) be able to see anything AR. The above quote is VARY plain you see one or the other. AR is not a 'new' sense rather it feeds extra information into an existing sense(s). You either see with your 'mind's eye' (the astral) or you meat eye (normal). AR / sim etc feeds into the meat senses, thus if you are seeing with your 'mind's eye' your arent seeing with the meat. (True dual Natured creatires: being the exception as 'both' sense are natural and always on). |
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Jun 5 2007, 07:03 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Yeah, but the ar would still display in the astral. hence the -2 for astrally perceiving. |
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Jun 5 2007, 07:17 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
odinson: How does AR display in Astral? Does a projecting mage get AR? Since ALL astral perception is a psychic perception, do you need a commlink to see AR in the astral? If you think meat body senses some how carry over, then explain why a blind mage 'sees' while astral.
I have always taken that to me, since you 'gun' is sort of grey and lackluster (your target may or may not be), sighting is harder and so aiming is harder. If 'both' sense worked then reading would be no problem, but it has been throughly hashed out that reading is impossible while astral. (short of anything debatably the size of the hollywood sign).
The closest I can find that implies AR would be possible while percieving astraly is the above: But as it points out you could all get the 'emotive' content. |
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Jun 5 2007, 11:50 AM
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#8
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Um ... aren't ghouls blind?
Not astrally, of course, but wouldn't that rather effectively negate the use of visual AR? |
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Jun 5 2007, 01:51 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
OK. Here's a more specific example:
Our group has a Hedge Witch with an Ally Spirit. Ordinarily, she operates with the Ally in Possession of her at all times (yes, she has Channeling). The question came up as to whether or not the now-Dual Natured Hedge Witch/Spirit can utilize her commlink - specifically for communication (mainly needing hearing but also some visual) - or if she is limited to just Astral Perception. The bit of gray really comes from the fact that Spirits - even when Materialized - can not see AR and nothing specifically states how this will interact with Possession. I'm considering altering the RAW to allowing Dual Natured beings (including Magicians and Adepts using Astral Perception) to use both AP and physical senses. The -2 penalty to physical actions would apply only to those creatures not able to 'turn off' their Astral Perception (those that are not typically Dual Natured). Wholly Astral creatures would not have access to physical senses. |
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Jun 5 2007, 04:23 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I think that this fixes your problem quite effectively. Considering you can theoretically switch methods of perceiving some 40 times per minute. Your possessed witch could merely perceive the astral most of the time, switching back to physical for dealing with things such as AR, comcalls, and the like. |
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Jun 5 2007, 05:36 PM
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#11
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
There are a lot of problems with the flippant way dual critters are handled in the basic rules. Hopefully we'll have them sorted out in Running Wild. Off the top of my head, here are some things that will get clarified:
Those things are unclear in the basic book. Hopefully this will get clarified in Running Wild. -Frank |
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Jun 5 2007, 06:40 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
The rules conflict that occurs stems from the fact that, as a Dual Natured entity (a constant effect of the Possession), I don't think she can switch her Astral Perception to the 'off' position (just like other Dual Natured creatures can not). |
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Jun 5 2007, 06:43 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I never found this to be a problem. Dual Natured creatures still base Physical damage track off of Body and the Stun damage off of Willpower. Is there a conflicting rule that I'm missing? |
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Jun 5 2007, 06:57 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Ah yes, it is implied that Dual critters have an "Astral Body" equal to their Willpower, which would mean that they would have two separate track sizes for physical damage, passing into unconciousness as soon as one was expended. This is not how it works, but you could easily come to that conclusion from reading the basic book. For example: A Barghest has a Body of 7 and a Willpower of 3. One might be tempted to think that he has an Astral Boddy of 3 and thus has a Physical Damage Track (Astral) of only 10 but that is in fact not how it works. -Frank |
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Jun 5 2007, 09:58 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
OK, I think I found the source of my problem.
Under the sidebar on Possession it says the Spirit can not access AR interfaces, DNI, or cyberware interfaces. All of that makes sense except for 'AR interfaces'. If AR interfaces were replaced with 'simsense' it would be fine, but other AR interfaces include HUDs and tight-beamed audio (see SR4, page 209). If we're dealing with "real" light and sound the Dual Natured Spirit should still be able to see and hear it, even if the light and sound are being made by a device, right? Yes, this a lower-end AR interface compared to just simsensing it, but the blanket AR interface comment seems to be the source of my confusion regarding whether Dual Natured creatures (specifically Spirits in Possession of a body) can make out the auditory output of a set of earbuds (as opposed to a simsense insertion of the 'sounds'). Did that make sense? |
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Jun 5 2007, 10:21 PM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yep. AR unfortunately is a really big word in Shadowrun, and includes everything from having your display link cause you to perceive extra matrix objects while having your body movements translated into computer signals through your data jack all the way to typing through a holographic key-pad. Spirits can't do the first thing (because their actions don't actually involve any neural impulses from the host), but they can do the second (because the laser keypad is simply a physical object, even if it is composed entirely out of photons and sensors. -Frank |
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Jun 6 2007, 07:01 AM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Who says it turns "off"? It merely says switching perception between them. For a dual natured character, I could see it more of a way of focusing more on what your ears are actually hearing, rather that what you're astrally sensing. Sort of like if you're at a club, and trying to have a conversation with someone. You can choose to focus on the music, likely not hearing a word of what they say. Or focus on them, usually catching enough to get the jist of it. |
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Jun 6 2007, 02:30 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I know this is off topic, but I just wanted to clarify that, for my own understanding, that "while astral" you can communicate freely (including reading) if you manifest. So, I would think one can read, while astrally projecting 1,000 km away, as long as they manifest themselves. |
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Jun 6 2007, 10:51 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Deek actually the general consensus (don't feel like doing the serach-fu) is that is not quite correct. When you manifest you can PSYCHICly communicate with anything freely. Intelligent things can 'hear' your (or see/smell/feel?) and you can hear, feel, smell them but it is a psychich sense. That text book, or the Commlink screen, or that road sign is just a dull greyish shape. Now a holy bible MAY give a sense of (what ever the owner felt, comfort, fire and brimstone, salvation, etc)... likewise lvoe letter from one true love would convey this emotion, but you could not 'read' them as there is nothing there psychically. (pretty much the same way Great Dragon can communicate. They can't 'speak' but can project their thought into someobdy's head. Works great for one to one conversations, but a little bit painful for public appearances, and impossible for broadcast appearances. |
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Jun 7 2007, 12:53 AM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Yeah, I probably should have searched for that as well, I suppose its all how one defines "freely communicate". I won't belabor it here though, but thanks for the feedback and I will certainly read up on that discussions.
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Jun 7 2007, 01:26 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
Is it possible for the possessed witch to turn off the ally spirit and gain control of her body for a few moments so she can utilize her commlink? I think that would make sense and I'd probably allow the dual-natured witch to use her AR equipment in that situation.
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Jun 7 2007, 10:01 AM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
She has Channeling, so it's not really necessary for her to 'turn off' the Spirit to control her own body - and the only way to really do that is to have the Spirit leave her body (requiring a Comple Action and another roll to succeed and leaving both her and the Spirit vulnerale during that time). With the Spirit in Possession, the two operate as a single Dual Natured entity, so that's why the 'can only perceive astral or physical' thing was bugging me - because AFAIKT DN creatures are ALWAYS using Astral PErception. |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:48 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I think that in previous editions it was more clear that dual-natured creatures function flawlessly in both planes simultaneously all the time. In any case, that's the simplest way to house rule it. Otherwise dual-natured becomes more of a gimp than a power.
Dual-natured already has the terrible drawback that it makes the dual-natured entity vulnerable to astral attack all the time. You're shapeshifter PC is standing in a room with his hacker, street samurai, and face friends - also a hostile fire spirit 8 present only on the astral plane. Your shapeshifter has to fight that battle alone. Also there's the issue of astral barriers. Edition after edition, ghouls have always been a pain in the butt because they are physically blind, but dual-natured. So, can they used ranged weapons, and if so, at what penalty? |
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Jun 7 2007, 02:59 PM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Well, a possessed vessel is dual natured because the spirit is in control and the spirit is an astral being, becoming dual natured when it possesses something or materializes.
The Channeling allows the magucian access to her skills and fine-motor control of her body while possessed, but I'd say SHE can still only use her own senses UNLESS she wants to spend an action to use the spirits powers. So she'll still have to decide whether she uses astral or mundane senses, because although they are the same entity, they use their abilities separately. That'd be my take on it, at least. Using channeling is something akin to pushing the spirit back and traking control herself, from what I understand. |
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Jun 8 2007, 02:07 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
I've always run DN's as having only their normal physical/stun damage track as i've never seen anything about an astral damage track (other than the body will go comatose if the spirit dies and if the body dies the spirit can wander on for magic x2 hours). Wounds in astral and physical are the same (the body and spirit are interconnected). Similar to how technomancers use one damage monitor though their "mind" is elsewhere in the matrix.
When astrally perceiving your dual natured, but you can't see AR as non-living/non-astral objects are just grey blobs. For (un)natural dual natured creatures like ghouls and manifesting spirits, they sense both without penalty simultaneously (as stated under spirit forms pg 176, but unless they have a nervous system can't see AR) The real issue is possession since its a blend of a character assensing/or not and similar to manifesting spirit (just inside you). I treat possession as more of a true dual nature like a ghoul or manifesting spirit (after all it IS the spirit perceiving) so you see both simultaneously as well, but since spirits can't perceive AR, neither can possessed characters (but you can see other physical things). Its worked pretty good thus far. |
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